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Postby wrightfan123 on Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:53 am

Pep, just noticed this, but now you're using old, out-of-date colors for your tests. Upgrade, man! ;)
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Postby Ogrecrusher on Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:15 am

oaktown wrote:relative to the other territories on the map, I' think you'd be safe making the Eur. Rus. bonus either five or six. Six (plus the one for moscow) makes the most sense because it is the same size and has the same number of borders to defend as Western Siberia, which is at seven. I recognize that the +1 auto deploy is less attractive than a normal bonus that you get to place, but between the auto deploy and the location of this region next to the western republics it will be much easier to seize and control than Wes. Sib., so I wouldn't give it a higher bonus value.


Is the +1 from Moscow an autodeploy?
It doesn't say that on the map.
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Postby pepperonibread on Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:56 am

Ogrecrusher wrote:
oaktown wrote:relative to the other territories on the map, I' think you'd be safe making the Eur. Rus. bonus either five or six. Six (plus the one for moscow) makes the most sense because it is the same size and has the same number of borders to defend as Western Siberia, which is at seven. I recognize that the +1 auto deploy is less attractive than a normal bonus that you get to place, but between the auto deploy and the location of this region next to the western republics it will be much easier to seize and control than Wes. Sib., so I wouldn't give it a higher bonus value.


Is the +1 from Moscow an autodeploy?
It doesn't say that on the map.


It's not autodeploy. Should I clarify that somewhere?
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Postby lanyards on Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:59 am

pepperonibread wrote:
Ogrecrusher wrote:
oaktown wrote:relative to the other territories on the map, I' think you'd be safe making the Eur. Rus. bonus either five or six. Six (plus the one for moscow) makes the most sense because it is the same size and has the same number of borders to defend as Western Siberia, which is at seven. I recognize that the +1 auto deploy is less attractive than a normal bonus that you get to place, but between the auto deploy and the location of this region next to the western republics it will be much easier to seize and control than Wes. Sib., so I wouldn't give it a higher bonus value.


Is the +1 from Moscow an autodeploy?
It doesn't say that on the map.


It's not autodeploy. Should I clarify that somewhere?
No, they will figure it out when they hold it. And if they want it autodeployed, well they can deploy it there on there own.
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Postby pepperonibread on Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:00 am

wrightfan123 wrote:Pep, just noticed this, but now you're using old, out-of-date colors for your tests. Upgrade, man! ;)


It's the XML tester that needs updating. Although I could change the colors manually. But that would take too long. :D
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Postby lozzini on Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:45 am

i think it should be 6
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Postby militant on Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:46 am

I voted 5
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Postby MrBenn on Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:14 pm

I voted to keep it at 6.

With the +1 for Moscow (not an autodeploy iirc), it makes a total of 7, the same as Western Siberia.
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Postby pepperonibread on Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:27 pm

I voted for 5, because if if you give it +6, then it's worth in all the same as W. Siberia.
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Postby lancehoch on Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:43 pm

I voted 6 (this basically means that it is a seven, given the Moscow bonus). 5(+1) would be too small given that there are 10 territories to the "continent." However, since there are only 5 territories that need to be defended (likely to only be 3 since Western republic would probably be taken very quickly) so giving 7(+1) or 8(+1) would be too much for the small amount of area that needs to be defended. In Asia on classic, you only get 7 for holding 12 countries, that have 5 borders (4 if Australia is held). The number of territories to defend against is also comparable (6/5 for Asia and 7/4 for European Russia).
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Postby iancanton on Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:57 pm

i voted for 7 (+1) to give a bonus to the holder of the continent which contains the capital city and which was the centre of political, military and economic power as well as containing the bulk of the population. 6 (+1) means the value of the moscow bonus to the holder of the continent (compared with western siberia), is negligible.

ian. :)
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Postby jasnostj on Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:03 pm

I don't understand, why not use/design a proper key to determine bonuses, instead of all the polls and wild guesses?

I would say there are 3 factors determining how difficult it is to take and keep hold of a continent:
1. number of territories
2. number of border territories
3. number of territories from which the borders can be attacked

Easiest thing would be to add up these 3 numbers, and divide the total by 3, thus taking the average number as bonus number.

But I can't blame you guys, because on the Classic map I don't see any clues either that the bonuses were determined by anything else than a wild guess. And we all know that that map's bonuses are unbalanced, and that some of the continents are really, really bad places to start the game from. That's because their bonus is too low for their difficulty. But hey, the game was created in 1957, what do you expect?

On the Classic map, bonuses would be more balanced if they were determined like this (no, I am not suggesting a revamp, just analysing):

Australia 4+1+1=6; 6/3=2 (correct)
S.America 4+2+2=8; 8/3=3 (now 2)
Africa 6+3+4=13; 13/3=4 (now 3)
N.America 9+3+3=15; 15/3=5 (correct)
Europe 7+4+6=17; 17/3=6 (now 5)
Asia 12+5+6=23; 23/3=8 (now 7)

On the USSR map this would result in the following bonuses:

Western Republics 4+3+3=10; 10/3=3 (now 2)
Central Asia 4+3+3=10; 10/3=3 (now 2)
Far East 4+3+3=10; 10/3=3 (now 2)
Yakutia 5+4+7=16; 16/3=5 (now 3)
Kazakhstan 5+4+8=17; 17/3=6 (now 3)
S.Siberia 8+4+6=18; 18/3=6 (now 4)
W.Siberia 10+7+6=23; 23/3=8 (now 7)
Eur.Russia incl. Moscow 10+5+7=22; 22/3=7

As to the subject of the poll: that would make a 6 for Eur.Russia, if Moscow would be 1, but only if all the other bonuses would be higher as they are now. Actually, Moscow by itself would be calculated as 1+1+5=7; 7/3=2, with Eur.Russia as 9+5+8=22; 22/3=7, meaning the total of Eur.Russia and Moscow would be 9. That's 1 more than W.Siberia, but Moscow is a target in itself, making Eur.Russia more difficult to take and hold than W.Siberia. Besides, Moscow will always be neutral at the start of the game, which means 1 garanteed enemy to overcome.

If all other bonuses will stay the way they are (which I expect), I would vote 6, so the total Eur.Russia+Moscow bonus is equal to the W.Siberia bonus, since the numbers are almost identical (with Moscow making up for the difference).

Please tell me wrong if there IS a different way to calculate this!
I would really like to understand.
Last edited by jasnostj on Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby militant on Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:11 pm

pepperonibread wrote:I voted for 5, because if if you give it +6, then it's worth in all the same as W. Siberia.


This is our map, so do it your way, there is always going to be someone who doesnt like and winges because the bonus is silly in there opinion, but at the end of the day, it is your map and you should do it how you want. :wink:
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Postby edbeard on Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:03 pm

regarding the bonuses, a few of us use this guide as a starting point

((( Territories * 1.5 ) + ( Border Territories * 4 ) + ( Neighbor Territories * 0.5 ) + Neighbor Regions)) / 6 ) - 1


from there it's discussion and debate. I think a poll and discussion are good ways to find a proper bonus. It gets people talking and forces people to use common sense.

Sometimes you might find the calculator gives you a large bonus for a small territory area. In these cases, it's probably best to lower them because holding a two or three territory continent is fairly easy and one can even hold it on their first turn with a good drop. This is why debate and discussion ARE needed to determine bonuses.
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Postby iancanton on Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:24 pm

i agree entirely. the result of the formula depends very much on how much weight u choose to give to each factor. the numbers shown above are arbitrary and the formula can give silly answers if used blindly.

soft factors, for example the position of a continent, can't be evaluated mechanically. a corner continent is obviously much easier to hold than one that, like kazakhstan or european russia, requires control of a neighbouring continent to make it safe.

ian. :)
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Postby iancanton on Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:56 pm

a couple of name changes. all other names now look suitable.

tyumen to sverdlovsk (by far the best-known city in the area).
evenk to evenkia (evenk is the name of the main tribe in evenkia).

http://www.uralterra.com/ekaterinburg-r ... on-russia/
http://www.evenkya.ru/eng/?id=obsh&sid=polstat

ian. :)
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Postby pepperonibread on Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:17 pm

iancanton wrote:a couple of name changes. all other names now look suitable.

tyumen to sverdlovsk (by far the best-known city in the area).
evenk to evenkia (evenk is the name of the main tribe in evenkia).

http://www.uralterra.com/ekaterinburg-r ... on-russia/
http://www.evenkya.ru/eng/?id=obsh&sid=polstat

ian. :)


Thanks. I'll fix these in the next update. Also, I think that the poll/discussion has shown that the bonus should be +6, so that will be staying the same. Any more bonus concerns, anyone?
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Postby pepperonibread on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:36 pm

New Update:

Large:

Image

Small:

Image

Large Test:

Image

Small Test:

Image

Large 3-Digit Test:

Image

Small 3-Digit Test:

Image

Changes:
-Tyumen is now Sverdlovsk and Evenk is now Evenkia.
-Moved army circles/names to better fit after changing names.
-Updated XML accordingly.

To do:
-Can a mod take off the poll? Thanks.
-Comments?
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Postby Coleman on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:46 pm

What should the bonus be for European Russia be? (Remember that in a game, the +1 bonus for Moscow will be added to this)
    5 31% [ 21 ]
    6 42% [ 28 ]
    7 21% [ 14 ]
    8 4% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 66
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Postby Coleman on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:46 pm

Have you done an Info page for this yet?
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Postby pepperonibread on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:52 pm

Yep.
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Postby pepperonibread on Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:23 pm

Graphics stamp?
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Postby wrightfan123 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:54 pm

pepperonibread wrote:Graphics stamp?


The chant begins! "Graphics stamp! Graphics stamp!"
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Postby gimil on Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:58 pm

pepperonibread wrote:Graphics stamp?


though i had already given it to you :)
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Postby gimil on Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:59 pm

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What do you know about map making, bitch?

natty_dread wrote:I was wrong


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