Battle For Iraq! [Quenched]

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Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:20 pm

Finding an appropriate balance between concept, realism, and execution is key. Look at the Bamboo Jack...at first the map met a number of people against it. A lot of people determined that taking over 'bodies' wasn't something that people really wanted to do when they played World Domination. It was reworked, etc. The map now is moving along and has much more support than it did earlier, mostly due to its execution regarding balance between making a map of delicate subject matter and a map for play.

The best advice is to just be open and receptive to people's issues and criticisms, and then perhaps you can craft a map that is fun to play on, without "insulting" anyone, anything, etc.


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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:38 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Finding an appropriate balance between concept, realism, and execution is key. Look at the Bamboo Jack...at first the map met a number of people against it. A lot of people determined that taking over 'bodies' wasn't something that people really wanted to do when they played World Domination. It was reworked, etc. The map now is moving along and has much more support than it did earlier, mostly due to its execution regarding balance between making a map of delicate subject matter and a map for play.

The best advice is to just be open and receptive to people's issues and criticisms, and then perhaps you can craft a map that is fun to play on, without "insulting" anyone, anything, etc.


--Andy


Well than I need some help identifying which are the sensitive aspects of this map that need to be worked on. DiM seems to think this map represents the innocent slaughter of civilians by Americans. As if there were no innocents killed in the numerous other wars we have fought, many already represented here on CC. If DiM could elude to the more outrageous parts of this map I might be open to suggestions.

But what I don't want to do is get political on this one. Anti or pro-Bush/America/whatever should stay in the flamewars. This map is going to represent an ongoing conflict. If people have a serious problem with war, perhaps they should stay away from a website with "conquer" in its title.
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:41 pm

ps2civxr20 wrote:i think that you should mix the ethnic groups on the borders like in the provence where tikrit is
(sorry if i make no sence)


thats a good idea. I wanted to represent the mixing of ethnic groups but didn't want to add seperate bonus for Sunni/Arab but I suppose if the tikrit province is require for the bonus of two ethnic groups that would work well.

the only problem is that there is only 3 ethnic bonuses so and territory required of multiple ethnic groups will see some serious fighting....

hmm... i think that would actually work well in the sectarian violence theme, great idea!
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Postby DiM on Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:05 pm

mibi wrote:
DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:With so much media, money and attention invested in the Iraq war it's quite shocking that an Iraq map hasn't made it through the foundry yet.


it would be interesting but (imho) inappropriate because to be honest i don't want to see a map of the glorification of innocent slaughter conducted by the americans.

let's make a map of the war in serbia. and add bonuses only if you own an american spot and bombard innocent terits.

or let's make a map of hiroshima and nagasaki. make lots of terits call them innocents and each player (with american names) can bombard all the terits.

the point is this is a very delicate subject and no matter how you deal with it and no matter how good the gameplay or the graphics will be, some people will be offended. of course most people will love it because the most players on this site are from usa.


i wanted to do an auschwitz-birkenau map. quickly dismissed it because it's simply a rotten thing from the past and it's best to let it go and forget it.


no offense DiM, but that is the dumbest comment I have heard in months. Iraq is not analogous with hiroshima, auschwitz or any of your hyperboles.

I am sure you raised the same issue about the other war maps, Pearl Harbor et all, where thousands of civilians died. Right?

Oh an how is this map glorifying anything anyways?


you're from canada from what i see in your profile. please talk to some americans and ask them what they feel about this war. then go and ask people from other countries that are directly or indirectly involved.

1st of all the common american has no idea where iraq is on a map.
2nd despite having close to no knowledge about this war they are very certain it's a good thing. that the good peace loving americans have went there to bring old peace and defeat terorism. i don't know what your opinion is on this but 2 of my cousins and a friend were there. they talked to the troops from other countries they saw the civilians and they saw how the stupid brainwashed american troops killed raped and did anything they wanted to civilians.

the things i've heard are worthy of an auschwitz comparison believe me.
i see no difference between 2 nazi soldiers that rape and then beat to death a jewish woman and 2 american soldiers that do the same thing to an iraqi woman.

the american troops the so called bringers of peace that were supposed to search the imaginary weapons of mass destruction were actually the only bad guys there.

you want to hear about target practice on civilians? about beatings and humiliations? about soldiers that publically urinated on the victims of their beatings or even on corpses?

will you have all this in your map? because, after all this is what's going on there. and its all in the name of peace.

you see the analogy now? it's not the fact that civilians are killed, this is in all wars and it's unfortunately unavoidable, but about the fact that the strong guy bullies and humiliates the little guy. that's what the americans did at nagasaki and hiroshima that's what the germans did at auschwitz.

yes in pearl harbor innocents died but i didn't see the japanese suicide bombers getting off the plane getting dunk beating the crap out of a woman raping her killing her then pissing on her corpse.
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Postby d.gishman on Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:25 pm

DiM wrote:the things i've heard are worthy of an auschwitz comparison believe me.
i see no difference between 2 nazi soldiers that rape and then beat to death a jewish woman and 2 american soldiers that do the same thing to an iraqi woman.

yes in pearl harbor innocents died but i didn't see the japanese suicide bombers getting off the plane getting dunk beating the crap out of a woman raping her killing her then pissing on her corpse.


Please do not compare the Iraq War to Auschwitz-Birkenau: doesn't matter how much you hate Bush and/or America, there is no way that the Iraq War equates to a systematic genocide of an entire ethnic group. In fact, most of the atrocities were committed by the insurgents not the Americans. There were isolated cases of course, but they do not reflect the U.S Army in general.

Also, the Japanese were much worse... the Rape of Nanking/Nanjing, comfort women, lack of respect for Geneva conventions, target practice, biological testing on Chinese/Korean civilians, treatment of Australians in pow camps, oppression of conquered civilians make the japanese much worse than what the americans ever did. We have a map about pearl harbor, why can't we have a map about the iraq war? The worst part about the whole Japanese crimes against humanity is that most of them still deny it.
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:49 pm

DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:
DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:With so much media, money and attention invested in the Iraq war it's quite shocking that an Iraq map hasn't made it through the foundry yet.


it would be interesting but (imho) inappropriate because to be honest i don't want to see a map of the glorification of innocent slaughter conducted by the americans.

let's make a map of the war in serbia. and add bonuses only if you own an american spot and bombard innocent terits.

or let's make a map of hiroshima and nagasaki. make lots of terits call them innocents and each player (with american names) can bombard all the terits.

the point is this is a very delicate subject and no matter how you deal with it and no matter how good the gameplay or the graphics will be, some people will be offended. of course most people will love it because the most players on this site are from usa.


i wanted to do an auschwitz-birkenau map. quickly dismissed it because it's simply a rotten thing from the past and it's best to let it go and forget it.


no offense DiM, but that is the dumbest comment I have heard in months. Iraq is not analogous with hiroshima, auschwitz or any of your hyperboles.

I am sure you raised the same issue about the other war maps, Pearl Harbor et all, where thousands of civilians died. Right?

Oh an how is this map glorifying anything anyways?


you're from canada from what i see in your profile. please talk to some americans and ask them what they feel about this war. then go and ask people from other countries that are directly or indirectly involved.

1st of all the common american has no idea where iraq is on a map.
2nd despite having close to no knowledge about this war they are very certain it's a good thing. that the good peace loving americans have went there to bring old peace and defeat terorism. i don't know what your opinion is on this but 2 of my cousins and a friend were there. they talked to the troops from other countries they saw the civilians and they saw how the stupid brainwashed american troops killed raped and did anything they wanted to civilians.

the things i've heard are worthy of an auschwitz comparison believe me.
i see no difference between 2 nazi soldiers that rape and then beat to death a jewish woman and 2 american soldiers that do the same thing to an iraqi woman.

the american troops the so called bringers of peace that were supposed to search the imaginary weapons of mass destruction were actually the only bad guys there.

you want to hear about target practice on civilians? about beatings and humiliations? about soldiers that publically urinated on the victims of their beatings or even on corpses?

will you have all this in your map? because, after all this is what's going on there. and its all in the name of peace.

you see the analogy now? it's not the fact that civilians are killed, this is in all wars and it's unfortunately unavoidable, but about the fact that the strong guy bullies and humiliates the little guy. that's what the americans did at nagasaki and hiroshima that's what the germans did at auschwitz.

yes in pearl harbor innocents died but i didn't see the japanese suicide bombers getting off the plane getting dunk beating the crap out of a woman raping her killing her then pissing on her corpse.


First of all, I am a US citizen who moved to Canada a few months ago, my father and brother are both veterans, of Vietnam and Iraq prospectively.

Second of all, your arguments are so flaw it would be a waste of my time to rebuttal.

Third of all, this map is no more political than D-Day or Pearl Harbor, let
s not let who-the-fuck-cares politics into the foundry.
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Postby DiM on Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:02 pm

d.gishman wrote:
DiM wrote:the things i've heard are worthy of an auschwitz comparison believe me.
i see no difference between 2 nazi soldiers that rape and then beat to death a jewish woman and 2 american soldiers that do the same thing to an iraqi woman.

yes in pearl harbor innocents died but i didn't see the japanese suicide bombers getting off the plane getting dunk beating the crap out of a woman raping her killing her then pissing on her corpse.


Please do not compare the Iraq War to Auschwitz-Birkenau: doesn't matter how much you hate Bush and/or America, there is no way that the Iraq War equates to a systematic genocide of an entire ethnic group. In fact, most of the atrocities were committed by the insurgents not the Americans. There were isolated cases of course, but they do not reflect the U.S Army in general.

Also, the Japanese were much worse... the Rape of Nanking/Nanjing, comfort women, lack of respect for Geneva conventions, target practice, biological testing on Chinese/Korean civilians, treatment of Australians in pow camps, oppression of conquered civilians make the japanese much worse than what the americans ever did. We have a map about pearl harbor, why can't we have a map about the iraq war? The worst part about the whole Japanese crimes against humanity is that most of them still deny it.


you see, the problem here is that in the pearl harbor map we have just that, the battle of pearl harbor. nothing else about what the japanese did or didn't. whilst here we have a map about what the americans do.

notice i said japanese did and americans do.

that's another problem i see. because the ww1+2 are something in the past they can be talked about much more easily. at most we have grand fathers that fought in those wars. but in this war we could have brothers cousins or in some cases even kids.

it's easier to talk about a grief from the past than about one from the present.

as mibi said a lot of money and media has been invested in this war and because of this i'm sick and tired of seeing on the tv reading in the newspapers or hearing on the radio that the brave amarican army went there to bring peace and destroy the evil. i'm sick and tired because everytime i see an american soldier giving an interview about how they struggle to bring peace i immediatelly imagine that soldier killing a civilian for fun as soon as the camera is turned off.

and i don't want that to come here. not on CC.

in my opinion making a map about iraq is good for marketing purposes. if mibi makes it it will probably be a success since every american here will want to play it and feel like he's killing the evil iraqi.

mibi please there are hundreds of wars pick another one. an old one, a historical battle like the battle of austerlitz. i agree that probably most of the americans have never heard of this battle but then again probably this would be a good idea to teach them something.

and with this post i finish my incursion in this thread. i will not bother you with stupid posts about the things that happen in iraq.

if it's decided to go ahead then ok. i guess i'll simply not play it.
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Postby unriggable on Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:15 pm

WOW that is confusing. I thought the cities were confusing enough but then I saw the whole party thing on the right. You really need to tone it down - too ambitious a project.

Good idea though.
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:45 pm

DiM wrote:
d.gishman wrote:
DiM wrote:the things i've heard are worthy of an auschwitz comparison believe me.
i see no difference between 2 nazi soldiers that rape and then beat to death a jewish woman and 2 american soldiers that do the same thing to an iraqi woman.

yes in pearl harbor innocents died but i didn't see the japanese suicide bombers getting off the plane getting dunk beating the crap out of a woman raping her killing her then pissing on her corpse.


Please do not compare the Iraq War to Auschwitz-Birkenau: doesn't matter how much you hate Bush and/or America, there is no way that the Iraq War equates to a systematic genocide of an entire ethnic group. In fact, most of the atrocities were committed by the insurgents not the Americans. There were isolated cases of course, but they do not reflect the U.S Army in general.

Also, the Japanese were much worse... the Rape of Nanking/Nanjing, comfort women, lack of respect for Geneva conventions, target practice, biological testing on Chinese/Korean civilians, treatment of Australians in pow camps, oppression of conquered civilians make the japanese much worse than what the americans ever did. We have a map about pearl harbor, why can't we have a map about the iraq war? The worst part about the whole Japanese crimes against humanity is that most of them still deny it.


you see, the problem here is that in the pearl harbor map we have just that, the battle of pearl harbor. nothing else about what the japanese did or didn't. whilst here we have a map about what the americans do.

notice i said japanese did and americans do.

that's another problem i see. because the ww1+2 are something in the past they can be talked about much more easily. at most we have grand fathers that fought in those wars. but in this war we could have brothers cousins or in some cases even kids.

it's easier to talk about a grief from the past than about one from the present.

as mibi said a lot of money and media has been invested in this war and because of this i'm sick and tired of seeing on the tv reading in the newspapers or hearing on the radio that the brave amarican army went there to bring peace and destroy the evil. i'm sick and tired because everytime i see an american soldier giving an interview about how they struggle to bring peace i immediatelly imagine that soldier killing a civilian for fun as soon as the camera is turned off.

and i don't want that to come here. not on CC.

in my opinion making a map about iraq is good for marketing purposes. if mibi makes it it will probably be a success since every american here will want to play it and feel like he's killing the evil iraqi.

mibi please there are hundreds of wars pick another one. an old one, a historical battle like the battle of austerlitz. i agree that probably most of the americans have never heard of this battle but then again probably this would be a good idea to teach them something.

and with this post i finish my incursion in this thread. i will not bother you with stupid posts about the things that happen in iraq.

if it's decided to go ahead then ok. i guess i'll simply not play it.


DiM, I'm not sure what goes on in Romania but the majority of Americans are against the war and against Bush. his approval ratings are in the can. Media coverage of Iraq is largely on what a disaster it is and when to pull out (unless its FOXNEWS). Your comment "every american here will want to play it and feel like he's killing the evil iraqi." just goes to show your ignorance of the subject matter. I am gald you have decided to stay out of this thread.
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:45 pm

unriggable wrote:WOW that is confusing. I thought the cities were confusing enough but then I saw the whole party thing on the right. You really need to tone it down - too ambitious a project.

Good idea though.


yeah its confusing as hell right now. The next updte should clarify it a bit more.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:05 pm

As mibi mentioned, and I will mention once more, lets keep politics out of the Foundry. Keep those in the Flame Wars and Off Topic forums. :)

I think one of the most difficult things about this map will be that it is about an 'ongoing' war/conflict/what-have-you. Because it isn't a part of the past yet, I think it will be harder to get some people on board with this idea.


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Postby Coleman on Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:15 am

I'm on board. That shouldn't shock anyone though. :roll:
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Postby cairnswk on Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:49 am

Mibi, I'd be lying through my teeth if i didn't say to you...this is too close to home and country at present.

I would like to be on board with you on this one, but I think you'd need to remove the Americans from the map and make the map more based around internal conflicts within Iraq rather than involve a country like the USA, Australia, or any other that is receiving current pressure from home to withdraw troops on all fronts; maybe something back as far as Sadams' days and the Iraq/Iran conflict without the USA would be more appropriate...still hot, but a little less sensitive.
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Postby jasnostj on Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:08 am

I like the idea.

I say you add more parties to it. It's not only Americans, Baath and Al Qaeda linked insurgents fighting - the latter two rooted in the Sunni community - but several Shia and Kurd factions as well. Like this the conflict is represented too simplisticly, and from an educational point-of-view (my idea of a good map is that you can learn something from it as well) that's not helping people to understand it.

Also, what to do with the (vast) mixed areas?
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Postby mibi on Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:55 am

cairnswk wrote:Mibi, I'd be lying through my teeth if i didn't say to you...this is too close to home and country at present.

I would like to be on board with you on this one, but I think you'd need to remove the Americans from the map and make the map more based around internal conflicts within Iraq rather than involve a country like the USA, Australia, or any other that is receiving current pressure from home to withdraw troops on all fronts; maybe something back as far as Sadams' days and the Iraq/Iran conflict without the USA would be more appropriate...still hot, but a little less sensitive.


Thanks for you comments cairns but I like the fact that this is a current war and an incendiary topic. like how all good maps on this site try to capture the ethos of their subject, i too will try to do this with this map, inciting moral ambiguity and confusion. I think this is a map that needs to be made. One thing i would consider in response to your suggestion is to replace the US with the "Coalition" although I am no too keen on this since i feel it absolves the US of its role, but if other people have problems with the US being involved in this map I will consider it.
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Postby mibi on Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:58 am

jasnostj wrote:I like the idea.

I say you add more parties to it. It's not only Americans, Baath and Al Qaeda linked insurgents fighting - the latter two rooted in the Sunni community - but several Shia and Kurd factions as well. Like this the conflict is represented too simplisticly, and from an educational point-of-view (my idea of a good map is that you can learn something from it as well) that's not helping people to understand it.

Also, what to do with the (vast) mixed areas?

Image


yes I would like to add more combatants, like the Mahdi army, can you suggest others? Also as i mentioned earlier the mixed areas will be territories like Ninawa which will be required for both the Kurd and Sunni bonus, meaning both bonus can't be had. So there will be lots of fighting over the mixed areas.

and yes I agree this map could be very educational to the uninformed masses.
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Postby Coleman on Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:00 am

I'm not understanding how this is controversial. It isn't any secret what all is going on over in Iraq. This is a true to present geography/war map with involved sides represented. There is no bias I see except for that the US isn't the sole combatant that is not a part of the other two groups.

I'd recommend the use of Coalition, although I personally don't have a problem with USA.
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Postby mibi on Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:00 am

Coleman wrote:I'm not understanding how this is controversial. It isn't any secret what all is going on over in Iraq. This is a true to present geography/war map with involved sides represented. There is no bias I see except for that the US isn't the sole combatant that is not a part of the other two groups.

I'd recommend the use of Coalition, although I personally don't have a problem with USA.


just wait until i add the bonuses. +10 for the Americans and -2 for being non-white. Aww yeah we gunna kickass all over dis map yo!
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Postby mibi on Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:19 pm

Changes:

1. Ta'am and Muthana are mixed ethnic territories so you will need them to hold either bonus.
2. Netruals are in the ally boxes. With US being hardest to take but with the potential biggest bonus.
3. City bonus have been updated to reflect the geopolitics, sort of.

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Postby ps2civxr20 on Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:43 pm

1. also make nafja and salahaddan mixed
2. maybe make a small bonus for having all the non mixed teritories for one ethnic group and another for all of the terretories
3. Make it so that if you hold bagdad and eather the sunni or shia contenent that you get a bonus
4. possibly make the rivers kind of like a railroad in that tere are stations (ports) that you can attack along the river. Some ports could be cities
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Postby ps2civxr20 on Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:52 pm

also minor spelling problem "new bahgdad"
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Postby mibi on Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:29 pm

ps2civxr20 wrote:1. also make nafja and salahaddan mixed
2. maybe make a small bonus for having all the non mixed teritories for one ethnic group and another for all of the terretories
3. Make it so that if you hold bagdad and eather the sunni or shia contenent that you get a bonus
4. possibly make the rivers kind of like a railroad in that tere are stations (ports) that you can attack along the river. Some ports could be cities


I like the first two suggestions, but i think the last two would add some unnecessary complication. There is already a road which follows the river mostly.
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Postby mibi on Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:27 pm

Changes:

1. Added another mix territory
2. Added seperate bonuses for mixed and non-mixed terrirotes

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Postby suggs on Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:39 pm

Hopefully the Yanks will be out soon. They've never been keen on extending thier empire "extra-Monroe" as it were.
So take the Yanks out of it.
And put in a load of bonuses for oil, as thats why its been fought over for the last 100 years. (Dont see the US invading Zimbabwe, do we....)

But cool idea. Nice and contraversial, which in itself is a good thing. Its only through the dialectical exhange of thoughts that we get anywhere at all.
Good work.
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Postby ps2civxr20 on Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:42 pm

mibi wrote:
ps2civxr20 wrote:1. also make nafja and salahaddan mixed
2. maybe make a small bonus for having all the non mixed teritories for one ethnic group and another for all of the terretories
3. Make it so that if you hold bagdad and eather the sunni or shia contenent that you get a bonus
4. possibly make the rivers kind of like a railroad in that tere are stations (ports) that you can attack along the river. Some ports could be cities


I like the first two suggestions, but i think the last two would add some unnecessary complication. There is already a road which follows the river mostly.

more suggestions yaa :D

1. Since the baathists were never too strong in kurdistan or shia areas because they oppressed them so i think you should take it out of kurd and shia dominated areas same with al-qaeda in shia area. you should replace the baathists in kurd area with some group for kurdish independence. Also replace the baaths and al-qaeda with some shia groups. Maybe the iraqi government in all places.

2. Still think you should mix nafja and salahaddan

3. Also maybe add other countries as one or two territory places because this isnt happening in a vacuum. Maybe give a bonus if you control southern iraq and iran or bonus if you have the kurdish parts of iran, sirya, and turkey along with kurdish iraq. Also if you implement this make it so that they all are neutral with a 10 garrison

4. Maybe have a small bonus if you control shia or sunni parts of bagdad

5. add arbil as a city

6. Not to get political but if this seems unnecessarily complicated it because the whole thing is unnecessarily complicated.
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