Battle For Iraq! [Quenched]

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Postby mibi on Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:58 am

jasnostj wrote:I like the idea.

I say you add more parties to it. It's not only Americans, Baath and Al Qaeda linked insurgents fighting - the latter two rooted in the Sunni community - but several Shia and Kurd factions as well. Like this the conflict is represented too simplisticly, and from an educational point-of-view (my idea of a good map is that you can learn something from it as well) that's not helping people to understand it.

Also, what to do with the (vast) mixed areas?

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yes I would like to add more combatants, like the Mahdi army, can you suggest others? Also as i mentioned earlier the mixed areas will be territories like Ninawa which will be required for both the Kurd and Sunni bonus, meaning both bonus can't be had. So there will be lots of fighting over the mixed areas.

and yes I agree this map could be very educational to the uninformed masses.
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Postby Coleman on Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:00 am

I'm not understanding how this is controversial. It isn't any secret what all is going on over in Iraq. This is a true to present geography/war map with involved sides represented. There is no bias I see except for that the US isn't the sole combatant that is not a part of the other two groups.

I'd recommend the use of Coalition, although I personally don't have a problem with USA.
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Postby mibi on Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:00 am

Coleman wrote:I'm not understanding how this is controversial. It isn't any secret what all is going on over in Iraq. This is a true to present geography/war map with involved sides represented. There is no bias I see except for that the US isn't the sole combatant that is not a part of the other two groups.

I'd recommend the use of Coalition, although I personally don't have a problem with USA.


just wait until i add the bonuses. +10 for the Americans and -2 for being non-white. Aww yeah we gunna kickass all over dis map yo!
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Postby mibi on Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:19 pm

Changes:

1. Ta'am and Muthana are mixed ethnic territories so you will need them to hold either bonus.
2. Netruals are in the ally boxes. With US being hardest to take but with the potential biggest bonus.
3. City bonus have been updated to reflect the geopolitics, sort of.

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Postby ps2civxr20 on Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:43 pm

1. also make nafja and salahaddan mixed
2. maybe make a small bonus for having all the non mixed teritories for one ethnic group and another for all of the terretories
3. Make it so that if you hold bagdad and eather the sunni or shia contenent that you get a bonus
4. possibly make the rivers kind of like a railroad in that tere are stations (ports) that you can attack along the river. Some ports could be cities
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Postby ps2civxr20 on Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:52 pm

also minor spelling problem "new bahgdad"
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Postby mibi on Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:29 pm

ps2civxr20 wrote:1. also make nafja and salahaddan mixed
2. maybe make a small bonus for having all the non mixed teritories for one ethnic group and another for all of the terretories
3. Make it so that if you hold bagdad and eather the sunni or shia contenent that you get a bonus
4. possibly make the rivers kind of like a railroad in that tere are stations (ports) that you can attack along the river. Some ports could be cities


I like the first two suggestions, but i think the last two would add some unnecessary complication. There is already a road which follows the river mostly.
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Postby mibi on Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:27 pm

Changes:

1. Added another mix territory
2. Added seperate bonuses for mixed and non-mixed terrirotes

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Postby suggs on Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:39 pm

Hopefully the Yanks will be out soon. They've never been keen on extending thier empire "extra-Monroe" as it were.
So take the Yanks out of it.
And put in a load of bonuses for oil, as thats why its been fought over for the last 100 years. (Dont see the US invading Zimbabwe, do we....)

But cool idea. Nice and contraversial, which in itself is a good thing. Its only through the dialectical exhange of thoughts that we get anywhere at all.
Good work.
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Postby ps2civxr20 on Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:42 pm

mibi wrote:
ps2civxr20 wrote:1. also make nafja and salahaddan mixed
2. maybe make a small bonus for having all the non mixed teritories for one ethnic group and another for all of the terretories
3. Make it so that if you hold bagdad and eather the sunni or shia contenent that you get a bonus
4. possibly make the rivers kind of like a railroad in that tere are stations (ports) that you can attack along the river. Some ports could be cities


I like the first two suggestions, but i think the last two would add some unnecessary complication. There is already a road which follows the river mostly.

more suggestions yaa :D

1. Since the baathists were never too strong in kurdistan or shia areas because they oppressed them so i think you should take it out of kurd and shia dominated areas same with al-qaeda in shia area. you should replace the baathists in kurd area with some group for kurdish independence. Also replace the baaths and al-qaeda with some shia groups. Maybe the iraqi government in all places.

2. Still think you should mix nafja and salahaddan

3. Also maybe add other countries as one or two territory places because this isnt happening in a vacuum. Maybe give a bonus if you control southern iraq and iran or bonus if you have the kurdish parts of iran, sirya, and turkey along with kurdish iraq. Also if you implement this make it so that they all are neutral with a 10 garrison

4. Maybe have a small bonus if you control shia or sunni parts of bagdad

5. add arbil as a city

6. Not to get political but if this seems unnecessarily complicated it because the whole thing is unnecessarily complicated.
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Postby mibi on Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:48 pm


1. Since the baathists were never too strong in kurdistan or shia areas because they oppressed them so i think you should take it out of kurd and shia dominated areas same with al-qaeda in shia area. you should replace the baathists in kurd area with some group for kurdish independence. Also replace the baaths and al-qaeda with some shia groups. Maybe the iraqi government in all places.


Sorry, I am not quite sure I understand this suggestion. Are talking about adding more combattants or more bonus rules? or something else


2. Still think you should mix nafja and salahaddan


While I wanted to make te ethnic mix totally acurate I had to keep an eye out for playabilty. If Najaf and Salahaddan were mixed it would leave the Suni area with just 2 territories, which is real small for a bonus espeically since its more than half of the map. Currently its 4 territories with an extra 3 mixed so I think its a good comprimise between playability and accuracy.

3. Also maybe add other countries as one or two territory places because this isnt happening in a vacuum. Maybe give a bonus if you control southern iraq and iran or bonus if you have the kurdish parts of iran, sirya, and turkey along with kurdish iraq. Also if you implement this make it so that they all are neutral with a 10 garrison


I was also considering this, but I am afraid there really isnt much room, as you can see. The country of Iraq already poses difficult because many of the privinces are all squashed and Anbar is just huge no to mention the long names so the map cant get much small in the space, nor can i fit surrounding countries.

4. Maybe have a small bonus if you control shia or sunni parts of bagdad


which parts are those?

5. add arbil as a city


Arbil wasn't really a scene of any major fighting. why should i add it?

6. Not to get political but if this seems unnecessarily complicated it because the whole thing is unnecessarily complicated.


I agree... but while the map should convey the complexities it must also have a balance with playability.
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Postby ps2civxr20 on Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:04 pm

1. i meant get rid of some groups in areas where they were never srong or liked and replace them with new ones though if you want to cange the bonus it is up to you.

2. you could make it so that to hold a ethnic group you haveto have a presence in the provences cities

3. Understandable, though it would be nice if they changed the map size limit

4. not exactly sure which parts are which but there is probably a map of it somewhere

5. it is still a major city but you dont realy have to add it

6. no you shouldn't make it playable at all, you should make it so everyone can do anything and it is confusing what you can do.
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Postby Coleman on Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:33 pm

ps2civxr20 wrote:6. no you shouldn't make it playable at all, you should make it so everyone can do anything and it is confusing what you can do.
I found this statement more confusing then the map by far.

Explain please?
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Postby Elijah S on Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:57 am

...
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Postby Rictus on Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:53 am

Question - are the city bonuses 'stackable'? If I control two cities and have captured both the Sunni and American neutral areas, do I get both bonuses? I really like the idea of allied cities, but I’m unsure how this is gonna work in a practical sense… Also, I assume these territories are one way? Because otherwise, my opponent takes the city, then I come piling out of the ‘neutral’ flag area to take the city back, which seems at odds with what these areas are meant to represent… or am I missing something? I really really like the idea of aligning the cities, which is why all the questions about the mechanism. Good luck with this one, I hope it goes somewere.
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Postby mibi on Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:58 am

Rictus wrote:Question - are the city bonuses 'stackable'? If I control two cities and have captured both the Sunni and American neutral areas, do I get both bonuses? I really like the idea of allied cities, but I’m unsure how this is gonna work in a practical sense… Also, I assume these territories are one way? Because otherwise, my opponent takes the city, then I come piling out of the ‘neutral’ flag area to take the city back, which seems at odds with what these areas are meant to represent… or am I missing something? I really really like the idea of aligning the cities, which is why all the questions about the mechanism. Good luck with this one, I hope it goes somewere.


No they are not stackable, there will be a negative bonus for owning two oposing sides, but i still need to work out the logistics of this. and yes the territories are one way, except al-queda which connect out the other way to sunni cities, I guess thats also one way tho.
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Postby Rictus on Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:00 am

mibi wrote:
Rictus wrote:Question - are the city bonuses 'stackable'? If I control two cities and have captured both the Sunni and American neutral areas, do I get both bonuses? I really like the idea of allied cities, but I’m unsure how this is gonna work in a practical sense… Also, I assume these territories are one way? Because otherwise, my opponent takes the city, then I come piling out of the ‘neutral’ flag area to take the city back, which seems at odds with what these areas are meant to represent… or am I missing something? I really really like the idea of aligning the cities, which is why all the questions about the mechanism. Good luck with this one, I hope it goes somewere.


No they are not stackable, there will be a negative bonus for owning two oposing sides, but i still need to work out the logistics of this. and yes the territories are one way, except al-queda which connect out the other way to sunni cities, I guess thats also one way tho.


Thanks. That Al Qaeda idea is very interesting - I think you're right and one way will have to be the way to go on those attacks. Still, whilst it fits with the 'reality' of the war (i.e. the idea that any Sunni city could have an al-qaeda attack/takeover) I'm not sure what it does for balance - after all, I'd be inclined to always chose Al- qaeda because of the additional attack options it gives me, as well as a bonus. Anyway, it's a really interesting wrinkle in game play, and I hope it makes it to the final forge in some form..
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Postby t.e.c on Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:15 am

i like the idea mibi, keep up the good work

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Postby s.xkitten on Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:20 am

it looks good...but i won't play it for a long long time.

I like the graphics, and how semi-complicated it looks.
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Postby ps2civxr20 on Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:14 pm

Coleman wrote:
ps2civxr20 wrote:6. no you shouldn't make it playable at all, you should make it so everyone can do anything and it is confusing what you can do.
I found this statement more confusing then the map by far.

Explain please?
it was a joke
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Postby Coleman on Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:42 pm

ps2civxr20 wrote:
Coleman wrote:
ps2civxr20 wrote:6. no you shouldn't make it playable at all, you should make it so everyone can do anything and it is confusing what you can do.
I found this statement more confusing then the map by far.

Explain please?
it was a joke
Ah, no wonder I didn't get it.
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Postby Suzy1 on Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:01 pm

:D
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Re: In response to DIM

Postby s.xkitten on Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:23 pm

Suzy1 wrote:DIM,
I am an American and have not supported the war in Iraq. However I do support our military completely. They were commanded to do a job and have bravely done so. As in all walks of life, some people make the wrong choices and do dishonorable things. Whether your comments are facts or not remains to be seen. You are wrong in every way though, to talk disgracefully about our military as though all are bad. I have 2 nephews who served in Iraq and neither of them enjoyed being there. I would love for you to sit face to face with either of them and hear their side of the story. You might be surprised at the facts you would learn. Our soldiers were rationing food and water because supplies were limited and they not knowing when more would arrive. Many of Our soldiers did without and gave their shares of food and water, to the Iraqi soldiers that surrendered to them. Would you feed the mouth that bites you? DIM? Of course you wouldn't. We know who you are. You are the oppressor that rants from the back of the crowd and would be the first one to hide behind an American soldier should he be there protecting your country and your sorry ass!


Get out of the foundry, and take it the clubhouse. There is a thread there that you may rant on whenever you like.
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Re: In response to DIM

Postby oaktown on Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:27 pm

s.xkitten wrote:Get out of the foundry, and take it the clubhouse. There is a thread there that you may rant on whenever you like.

While I'd rather we just talk shop in the foundry, I think the concerns were appropriate since DiM started it. In his over-generalization and vilification of all Americans DiM showed that he is capable of the same type of thought that drives people to commit war crimes against people they've depersonalized, so I'll give Suzy a break on this one.

The personal/political reactions to this map may never go away. Could be a constant uphill battle. :cry:
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Postby Coleman on Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:31 pm

I feel CC, and this map, are politically neutral.

I'm not worried about people getting offended, I'll leave that to the other moderators. :lol:
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