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Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:25 pm

Herakilla wrote:is MSJ supposed to be a village? is so include it in the bonus, and what about hougmant (however its spelled)


MSJ is listed at the top of the map for the purposes of abbreviation.

There is a "bonus bar" underenath Napoleon's list on the right of the map for MSJ therefore it will have it's own bonus.

Only those smaller village named in the "5 villages...." bonus workding to the right of waterloo title will be included in that group as "+3" bonus.

oh and....LHS will not have it's own bonus .....my bad....it is included in the group of 5. Sorry for this. :)
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:37 pm

Herakilla wrote:middle road would work and that would make it a crucial part of strategy and more realistic


What about NA 1 2 3....???
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Postby yeti_c on Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:37 pm

Herakilla wrote:middle road would work and that would make it a crucial part of strategy and more realistic


Concur.

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Postby mibi on Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:48 pm

Here is a more in depth comment. After looking over this map for several minutes I have more questions than answers.

1. I wondered just what commanders are, then I looked at the legend way down at the bottom. Perhaps the icon for commander can be put inline with the commander bonus to save the brain a step or two.

2. I get the impassables, but what is the road for? And why is there a fence and hedges along one part of it.

3. The villages dont look like villages. The one thing that does look like a villages is the H1, H2, H3 area because it looks like it has buildings, but its not a village. I dont even know what it is.

4. He is a big issuse, as it might be for anyone looking at the map for the first time. There are these plaque like things on the left and right. What are they? Are they people? places? both? Also why are are certain letters underlined? I am guessing that the underline letter corresponds to the cryptic territory names. But I look at Napoleon, which has the N underlined and I dont see any N1, N2, N3 areas. I see a bunch of NA's however. Doesnt that stand for NApoleon? Again, tucked at the bottom is the rest of the sprawling legend. I see that A stands for artillery, as well as a cannon ball icon. This could make sense, as NA1 could stand for Napoleon Artillery 1. But then I see that "1" stands for Unit, which doesn't quite make sense in the alpha naming scheme you have established. So I am a bit confused. NA1 now stands for Napoleon Artillery Unit, which I get, but what is NA2? Does 2 stand for unit also. Using my reasoning abilities I determin that NA is the 2nd Napoleon Artillery unit. But this would have been obvious, if the '1=unit' didn't obfuscate things.
So now I have a handle on the naming and such, although some named areas are quite counter intuitive, like K for Cook, S for Chasse and Y for Ney. I still don't know what the H1, H2, H3 areas are as there is nothing listed using the H letter. Could it be H'mont? I'm not sure. Ok I think I am starting to get it, even thought I have no idea if those are people or places or what, LHS? C.L? M.S.J? These will remain a mystery to everyone but scholars of this battle, unfortunately. Ok there is one more issue with the naming. I get that I stands for Infantry but your using a sans serif font which makes PI4 look like P14, same with KI2, k12, etc. This is a bit annoying.

5. On to the icons. I get what they are, but who are they? Whos red and who is blue? Well Napoleon is blue, then who is red. Sorry if I do not know my napoleonic wars very well, I suspect there are others. I am also kinda bummed that only the camanders have a side specific bonus. With out the bonus the sides are irrelevant, and with the bonus they are slightly less irelevant. If you want to pit side vs side more there should be more side specific bonuses. Ok, on to the icon movement. The artillery description is badly worded. Artillery can bombard any territory in a 4 territory radius, I suppose is what your looking for. Here is what you have and highlighted are the unnessasry words;

Artillery does not attack. Artillery can only bombard any territory directly in any direction up to a range of 4 territories away.

No use making more compicated than it has to. Simply cairns, simplify. I dont get the Calvary attack at all. Two territories in advance? advance is often used in conjuction with some temporal measure. Can they attack two territories away? Do they have a range of two? I'm not sure. And lastly, the commanders hat looks like a bell. Napoleons had is very iconic but the icon and the map outline look like a bell, or perhaps fruit mold, at least to me. It would also be nice to have a photo of the ol guy somewhere.

6. Lastly, I just noticed the extra legen about the title. Well that clears up those abreivations I was unsure about. Although you have abrieviated Hougomont as H'mont, given the frenchness of the names one might not make the leap. Also you have D'erlon twice, once on the side and again at the bottom. I'm not sure why its in two places but it's confusing.

See, it only took me 40 minutes to understand this map. And that is what I am taking about when I refer to a steep learning curve, which can and often does put off many players. Pearl harbor was complex, but not complicated, so it was understandable. This map is complex, and complicated. You have numerous 'user interface' issues and it all adds up to a bit of confusion. Perhaps others can 'get' the map much quicker, but understanding this map is something a user certainly has to work for.

I wont get to the graphics at this point tho, save that for another day.

Cheers,
mibi
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Postby unriggable on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:05 pm

cairnswk wrote:
unriggable wrote:Artillery is useless in this, i suggest you fix it's role.


...and i suggest you suggest less arrogantly about what to do with the artillery, unriggable. :x

If you can't offer anything of decent value than to criticise in this commenting role, then please don't bother to comment at all on my maps.
I won't bother to fix anything unless you can come up with a decent suggestion.


Fine. Artillery should be able to bombard all adjacent countries and all countries in the continent. Just saying that since you're the mapmaker you should have sleeves chock-full of ideas.
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:07 pm

mibi wrote:Here is a more in depth comment. After looking over this map for several minutes I have more questions than answers.
...
I wont get to the graphics at this point tho, save that for another day.

Cheers,
mibi


Thanks Mibi...that is most productive, and extremely helpful.
I'll make changes accordingly and post another version soon in conjunction with other comments above.
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:19 pm

unriggable wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
unriggable wrote:Artillery is useless in this, i suggest you fix it's role.


...and i suggest you suggest less arrogantly about what to do with the artillery, unriggable. :x

If you can't offer anything of decent value than to criticise in this commenting role, then please don't bother to comment at all on my maps.
I won't bother to fix anything unless you can come up with a decent suggestion.


Fine. Artillery should be able to bombard all adjacent countries and all countries in the continent. Just saying that since you're the mapmaker you should have sleeves chock-full of ideas.


Thanks unriggable for that suggestion. :) As there are other ideas from others for the artillery, i will now attempt to list them and maybe we could have a poll on this one.

Unfortunately, sometimes a mapmaker wants to do a map, but can't see the woods for the trees....this is why it is important if you have a suggestion that you think it valid, to offer it up, rather than just say "fix it". Appreciate your suggestion. :)
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Postby Herakilla on Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:25 pm

i personally like the idea of splitting the artillery targets to the side of the middle road they are on and to the other army's countries, not their own
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:41 pm

Herakilla wrote:i personally like the idea of splitting the artillery targets to the side of the middle road they are on and to the other army's countries, not their own


Herakilla...what about NA1 2 3....where do these attack...or should they be moved.

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Postby Herakilla on Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:50 pm

the road im talking about is the one that goes up from rosamme to MSJ
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:01 pm

Herakilla wrote:the road im talking about is the one that goes up from rosamme to MSJ


yes that's what i am referring to also...so NA2 would bombard the right side fo the map, correct? and NA1 would bombard the left.
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Postby Herakilla on Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:10 pm

ya exactly!
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:16 pm

Herakilla wrote:ya exactly!


OK...i am going to remove the other two roads as they appear to be causing confusion.
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:21 pm

Other things i will be doing....

1. changing the Commander hats to flags.....flags are more identifiable as a shape.

2. remodelling the vellages and towns.

3. moving all the legend bits and pieces to the top of the map
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Postby Herakilla on Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:34 pm

cairnswk wrote:Other things i will be doing....

1. changing the Commander hats to flags.....flags are more identifiable as a shape.

2. remodelling the vellages and towns.

3. moving all the legend bits and pieces to the top of the map


sounds good! i assume you will have more room to work with than b4 because the map itself is moved down?
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:09 pm

Herakilla wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Other things i will be doing....

1. changing the Commander hats to flags.....flags are more identifiable as a shape.

2. remodelling the vellages and towns.

3. moving all the legend bits and pieces to the top of the map


sounds good! i assume you will have more room to work with than b4 because the map itself is moved down?


yes to some extent....all those bits and pices will assemble in one area as suggested by mibi.
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Version 9 Changes

Postby cairnswk on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:51 pm

Well, after mibi's very productive critique, and other suggestions by people, there was an obvious change needed. So here it is....and i am much happier with where this is heading. Thanks everyone for the productive "push".

Changes:
1. Colours.
2. Font...using non Sans Serif for better differentiation 'tween I and 1
3. Villages and Farms defined, named and bonused
4. Artillery and Cavalry defined more for their attacking situation
5. Brussels Road enhanced for artillery bombardments
6. Territory Naming enhanced
7. Photos of Napoleon and Wellington added
8. many terrritories re-boundried
9. crests for Napoleon and Wellington added


To Do:
1. Enhancements, enhancements, enhancements.
2. Buildings to be added to farms and villages
3. A few more impassables to be placed.
4. draw bridge
5. any other stuff

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Postby unriggable on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:58 pm

The actual units need to be better identified.
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Postby yeti_c on Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:00 pm

DA3 4 5 -> should be DA 1 2 3...

Still reckon you should drop the range of 4 for artillery and make it bombards opposing troops - the side of the road thing is good tho...

C.

PS - on other notes - I love the new look - This is really taking shape and looking clean and cool... Great work again Cairns.
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Postby Herakilla on Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:01 pm

first some compliments!

i like the new layout, you lost that odd outline (i know it was a hat) that really just constricted your map visually and kept it from being what it could

the legend is much more clear now i like it a lot better and i think many will agree with me

its much easier to discern the general area of a commander due to each having their own shade of red or blue, definatly a plus

the flags are a huge improvement over the helmets for commanders

now for more suggestions!

underline 2 in your name explanation, you underline the letter and type of unit but not the number

for the farms maybe you could color them brown with rows of green (remember how farms look on age of empires 1 and 2?)

the hedges on L17 and B11 seem a little wierd, parts of it seem brighter than any other hedge

thats all for now, ill come back when i have some more time

good job cairn!
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Postby cairnswk on Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:05 pm

unriggable wrote:The actual units need to be better identified.


Please explain in more depth what you are thinking unriggable, i am not a mind reader. :wink:
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Postby yeti_c on Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:08 pm

Also - Wellington and Napoleon should have +2 territory bonuses (or similar) as they are the most important characters...

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Postby cairnswk on Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:09 pm

yeti_c wrote:DA3 4 5 -> should be DA 1 2 3...

Still reckon you should drop the range of 4 for artillery and make it bombards opposing troops - the side of the road thing is good tho...

C.

PS - on other notes - I love the new look - This is really taking shape and looking clean and cool... Great work again Cairns.


Thanks yeti_c
1. DA123 fixed fir next version.
2. i'll see about the artillery range and what others have tosay on that also.
3. yes it is taking shape, but i am more of a curve person so this is really hard to get the unit/rectangle thingy design...if you know what i mean. I guess it for me means striking a good balance 'twix the two. :)
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Postby yeti_c on Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:11 pm

cairnswk wrote:3. yes it is taking shape, but i am more of a curve person so this is really hard to get the unit/rectangle thingy design...if you know what i mean. I guess it for me means striking a good balance 'twix the two. :)


Some times function has to take over form... realising this is the ability of a true designer though...

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Postby cairnswk on Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:11 pm

yeti_c wrote:Also - Wellington and Napoleon should have +2 territory bonuses (or similar) as they are the most important characters...

C.


Thanks...some re-arrangement will occur there....i think i am going to have to put all this napoleon terts in as Imperial Guards if you want to have Napoleon and Wellington as +2 bonuses.
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