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Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:58 pm

Coleman wrote:Whenever you are ready for leaving Map Ideas I have two conditions that need to be met that haven't been yet:

The number of territories currently on the map. (In First Post)
A Working Legend (There is a Lot I Don't Understand Yet)

To elaborate on what I don't get. Any territory in the airport and the village is +2. Right now the Castle and the Cars up to it are of no apparent value aside from the victory conditions in the Castle.

Is that intentional or have they not been added yet? If it was intentional I don't foresee anyone playing the way you described in your first post. It seems more likely they'd tear through the village for the airport bonuses unless the neutral values are really going to make that undesirable.


Mmmm...problem with that is coleman, two of the objective terts are in the castle -> funkraum and munitionsraum....and no-one now starts in the castle.

I will adjust the first to notate number of territories.
The working legend is around the side for now....I may change it later.
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Postby Coleman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:00 pm

Right, well in your first post you thought people would go for the castle before the airport.

I'm guessing players would rather go to the airport first. I would if I have no incentive to go to the castle until I was ready to take those victory condition territories.
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Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:20 pm

Coleman wrote:Right, well in your first post you thought people would go for the castle before the airport.

I'm guessing players would rather go to the airport first. I would if I have no incentive to go to the castle until I was ready to take those victory condition territories.


That is ver easily solved....Guards A & B at the bottom of the cable car will not be joined, and the Comm. Willy to Bahnhof will be one-way.
That will stop people getting to the airport first.

I have done the terts on the first page.
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Postby yeti_c on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:29 pm

cairnswrk wrote:Everyone gets a chance to start at the starting position.


Hi Cairns...

In your first post you state this...

The problem is - I don't think it's true...

There are 24 territories at the start...

In a 6 player game you have 4 territories to start with...

8 of the starting territories are the Starters...

So the drop could well exclude anyone from having one of these starter territories...

I think you have a 25% chance of not getting a starter territory...

I'm not sure on my maths tho - as it's the end of a long day!!!

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Postby bryguy on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:32 pm

i think it should be that the start territories should be the only ones that are not neutral


kinda like Age of Might and such
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Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:33 pm

Version 6 Update.

This should stop anyone doing like Coleman state and speeding through the town to the airport....unless they are already there!

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Postby bryguy on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:35 pm

so can people start at the light blue territories??
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Postby yeti_c on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:36 pm

Cairns - I assume the Cable cars are one way only?

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Postby bryguy on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:36 pm

yeti_c wrote:Cairns - I assume the Cable cars are one way only?
i assume they are, but yea cairns are they?
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Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:39 pm

bryguy wrote:so can people start at the light blue territories??


yes
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Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:40 pm

yeti_c wrote:Cairns - I assume the Cable cars are one way only?

C.


yes...there is a one-way arrow holding those cars...but i will clarify that in the legend....next version.
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Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:45 pm

bryguy wrote:i think it should be that the start territories should be the only ones that are not neutral


kinda like Age of Might and such


That is still up for consideration bryguy.
If Yeti_c's calculations are correct as above, then I might have to do that. :wink:
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Postby yeti_c on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:47 pm

cairnswk wrote:
bryguy wrote:i think it should be that the start territories should be the only ones that are not neutral


kinda like Age of Might and such


That is still up for consideration bryguy.
If Yeti_c's calculations are correct as above, then I might have to do that. :wink:


Sorry!!

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Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:48 pm

yeti_c wrote:
cairnswrk wrote:Everyone gets a chance to start at the starting position.


Hi Cairns...

In your first post you state this...

The problem is - I don't think it's true...

There are 24 territories at the start...

In a 6 player game you have 4 territories to start with...

8 of the starting territories are the Starters...

So the drop could well exclude anyone from having one of these starter territories...

I think you have a 25% chance of not getting a starter territory...

I'm not sure on my maths tho - as it's the end of a long day!!!

C.


Sound logical to me.

Perhaps we need lackattack to hurry up with that modification on starting positions for the xml....a PM coming up i think.
As i stated before....if we can stipulate through xml that a tert starts neutral, then it should be easy to stipulate that a tert starts Player 1 etc.
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Postby yeti_c on Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:58 pm

cairnswk wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
cairnswrk wrote:Everyone gets a chance to start at the starting position.


Hi Cairns...

In your first post you state this...

The problem is - I don't think it's true...

There are 24 territories at the start...

In a 6 player game you have 4 territories to start with...

8 of the starting territories are the Starters...

So the drop could well exclude anyone from having one of these starter territories...

I think you have a 25% chance of not getting a starter territory...

I'm not sure on my maths tho - as it's the end of a long day!!!

C.


Sound logical to me.

Perhaps we need lackattack to hurry up with that modification on starting positions for the xml....a PM coming up i think.
As i stated before....if we can stipulate through xml that a tert starts neutral, then it should be easy to stipulate that a tert starts Player 1 etc.


Aye that would sort it out - Once that was done then it wouldn't be a problem for the rest of the map...

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Postby edbeard on Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:29 pm

well I still think there's no benefit to going for the castle early. you go through all those neutrals FOR everyone else. there's no bonuses over there. whereas in the airport you do HAVE bonuses. there's only one way inside so you'd only need to protect one territory. why am I going to kill 8 neutral territories just to get somewhere that doesn't benefit me bonus wise. other people gain so much from me going there first. they don't have to kill lots of neutrals. they can kill bonus territories and get more armies while I get weaker.

another problem I have is the check point negative bonus. I just feel that there's no incentive to do anything there except take over those first two territories and leave them there forever. at worst you'll have 3 or 4 guys stuck on your K2 or T2 territory.

I think the 'one way' paths on this map are a problem. I love the idea and most of the gameplay, but it seems like this could end up being a stalemate type of game. one person holds he airport another maybe the castle and possibly someone else holding the lower area.

Solutions and Ideas:


Maybe if there were less cars needed to attack that would be better?

Possibly add other routes to get to the important areas. Maybe make the checkpoints into another positive bonus, but also give people the option to go around it? this way there's an incentive to take it over, but also gives other the opportunity to not fall far behind if the first one through is able to hold it for a turn.

If there were less cars and good bonuses at the castle, then there would be an incentive to do all that work.

But, maybe there should be a mountain pass that you can go through to get to the castle. Also, maybe a separate path to get to the airport from the castle?
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Postby bryguy on Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:47 pm

edbeard wrote:well I still think there's no benefit to going for the castle early. you go through all those neutrals FOR everyone else. there's no bonuses over there. whereas in the airport you do HAVE bonuses. there's only one way inside so you'd only need to protect one territory. why am I going to kill 8 neutral territories just to get somewhere that doesn't benefit me bonus wise. other people gain so much from me going there first. they don't have to kill lots of neutrals. they can kill bonus territories and get more armies while I get weaker.

well the only reason u WOULD go for the castle first, is cause u CANNOT get to the airport otherwise
edbeard wrote:another problem I have is the check point negative bonus. I just feel that there's no incentive to do anything there except take over those first two territories and leave them there forever. at worst you'll have 3 or 4 guys stuck on your K2 or T2 territory.


well that might happen, but the thing is, you then cant get the other team. To win u have to get the objective, so u actually dont really want to try and go for the other people. And the check point negative bonus cancels out the other bonus (by a little bit)

I think the 'one way' paths on this map are a problem. I love the idea and most of the gameplay, but it seems like this could end up being a stalemate type of game. one person holds he airport another maybe the castle and possibly someone else holding the lower area.

edbeard wrote:Maybe if there were less cars needed to attack that would be better?


its more fun to have more cars

edbeard wrote:Possibly add other routes to get to the important areas. Maybe make the checkpoints into another positive bonus, but also give people the option to go around it? this way there's an incentive to take it over, but also gives other the opportunity to not fall far behind if the first one through is able to hold it for a turn.


No that would make it TO easy, and besides, its pretty much the only negative on the board

edbeard wrote:If there were less cars and good bonuses at the castle, then there would be an incentive to do all that work.


it seems (to me) that its GOOD that u dont get any bonus' at the castle, cause that makes so that people cant get like a lot more bonus then it already is, and so far most places are +2 each unit held

edbeard wrote:But, maybe there should be a mountain pass that you can go through to get to the castle. Also, maybe a separate path to get to the airport from the castle?


no that would make it to easy
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Postby edbeard on Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:01 pm

I could be wrong but I think Corn Willy wasn't a oneway border before. Either way I didn't see that.

More cars = more fun is a silly comment. Eight cars is excessive. Whoever goes through those cars first is at a disadvantage. Unless you put 1 neutral on each of them, you're doing the work for everyone else. If you're forced to go through that area, then you're at a disadvantage and others will get even further ahead while you're wasting time going through so many territories (even if there's only 1 neutral on them).

Also, what you said about the checkpoint made zero sense to me whatsoever. Everyone has one army in the lower area. Either you'll be one of the four on the right side so you'll be able to go towards the airport right away, or you'll be able to go to the cars. So, taking over each other in the lower area IS a good strategy at this point. You'll start with 5 guys to place. Take over someone else and he only gets 3. Possibly you'll get 7 guys next turn. So, this means taking over the checkpoints will come into play, but if you're the poor sap that needs to do this, you're at a double disadvantage. You can move guys through but you'll be further behind everyone.


Maybe lower the bonus territories to a plus 1. I just feel like going first and getting lucky in the early rounds could be huge on this map.




Edit: also I have a question.

So three areas have eight starting territories. Are you planning on having each of these just open to everyone, so that in a three player game each player would have eight territories, or do you think it would be better if everyone started with one territory in each area? I realize that the XML doesn't allow this currently, but it seems like an interesting idea.
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:24 am

edbeard wrote:More cars = more fun is a silly comment. Eight cars is excessive. Whoever goes through those cars first is at a disadvantage. Unless you put 1 neutral on each of them, you're doing the work for everyone else. If you're forced to go through that area, then you're at a disadvantage and others will get even further ahead while you're wasting time going through so many territories (even if there's only 1 neutral on them).


Guys...what if i made Kontrol 1 border upcar 1,2,3,4 and upcar 1 border upcar 5, upcar 2 border upcar 6, upcar 3 border upcar 7, upcar 4 border upcar 8, and upcars 5,6,7,8 border Kontrol 2.
That would still make 8 cars, but means that there would be four different routes still one-way up that cable car with only two stops.

The same would apply on the down side.
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:39 am

edbeard wrote:I could be wrong but I think Corn Willy wasn't a oneway border before. Either way I didn't see that.

Yes i only just changed that edbeard.....had been thinking about to make it fair for airport mob to get into town and conquer to the castle.

Also, what you said about the checkpoint made zero sense to me whatsoever. Everyone has one army in the lower area. Either you'll be one of the four on the right side so you'll be able to go towards the airport right away, or you'll be able to go to the cars. So, taking over each other in the lower area IS a good strategy at this point. You'll start with 5 guys to place. Take over someone else and he only gets 3. Possibly you'll get 7 guys next turn. So, this means taking over the checkpoints will come into play, but if you're the poor sap that needs to do this, you're at a double disadvantage. You can move guys through but you'll be further behind everyone.



Guys, thanks for your feedback on this checkpoint....strategy isn't exactly one of my strong points so i very much appreciate this input.

With the starters, effectively it meams that no-one can ever be knocked out of the game, as these starters are always in play because of their one-way attack routes. But the checkpoint will make it hard if someone does get knocked out in the other areas, they would still have to battle through whichever checkpoint to even get into the "main game" sts.
That means that someone could clog up those areas using a alrge resource to fight them at the checkpoint. But would it be worth it when the objective is to win certain terts.

I was thinking of making one tert an artillery bombardment that would target the checlpoints and if you held that artillery tert then you could effectively neutralise the -1 bonus.


Maybe lower the bonus territories to a plus 1. I just feel like going first and getting lucky in the early rounds could be huge on this map.


OK...let's keep that one in mind for later.



Edit: also I have a question.

So three areas have eight starting territories. Are you planning on having each of these just open to everyone, so that in a three player game each player would have eight territories, or do you think it would be better if everyone started with one territory in each area? I realize that the XML doesn't allow this currently, but it seems like an interesting idea.


i would prefer to allow one player to start in each area if the xml can be developed to that degree.
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:42 am

bryguy wrote:
edbeard wrote:But, maybe there should be a mountain pass that you can go through to get to the castle. Also, maybe a separate path to get to the airport from the castle?


no that would make it to easy


I agree. And in essence it would take away the story from this map.

The only other way that was used in this story to get up to the castle was by helipcopter.

I really don't want to go there for two reasons:
1. it would make this map too much like King of the mountains
2. as already pointed out, it would be too much easier and probably messier.
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Postby yeti_c on Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:02 pm

cairnswk wrote:
edbeard wrote:More cars = more fun is a silly comment. Eight cars is excessive. Whoever goes through those cars first is at a disadvantage. Unless you put 1 neutral on each of them, you're doing the work for everyone else. If you're forced to go through that area, then you're at a disadvantage and others will get even further ahead while you're wasting time going through so many territories (even if there's only 1 neutral on them).


Guys...what if i made Kontrol 1 border upcar 1,2,3,4 and upcar 1 border upcar 5, upcar 2 border upcar 6, upcar 3 border upcar 7, upcar 4 border upcar 8, and upcars 5,6,7,8 border Kontrol 2.
That would still make 8 cars, but means that there would be four different routes still one-way up that cable car with only two stops.

The same would apply on the down side.


A good idea - but how do you put that in the legend?

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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:00 pm

yeti_c wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
edbeard wrote:More cars = more fun is a silly comment. Eight cars is excessive. Whoever goes through those cars first is at a disadvantage. Unless you put 1 neutral on each of them, you're doing the work for everyone else. If you're forced to go through that area, then you're at a disadvantage and others will get even further ahead while you're wasting time going through so many territories (even if there's only 1 neutral on them).


Guys...what if i made Kontrol 1 border upcar 1,2,3,4 and upcar 1 border upcar 5, upcar 2 border upcar 6, upcar 3 border upcar 7, upcar 4 border upcar 8, and upcars 5,6,7,8 border Kontrol 2.
That would still make 8 cars, but means that there would be four different routes still one-way up that cable car with only two stops.

The same would apply on the down side.


A good idea - but how do you put that in the legend?

C.


Like this Version 7 update.

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Postby yeti_c on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:02 pm

PS Laguerroom B - is the only one that can get to the powder room...

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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:07 pm

yeti_c wrote:PS Laguerroom B - is the only one that can get to the powder room...

C.


No...read the legend please :o
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