Das Schloß [QUENCHED #2]

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Postby edbeard on Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:29 pm

well I still think there's no benefit to going for the castle early. you go through all those neutrals FOR everyone else. there's no bonuses over there. whereas in the airport you do HAVE bonuses. there's only one way inside so you'd only need to protect one territory. why am I going to kill 8 neutral territories just to get somewhere that doesn't benefit me bonus wise. other people gain so much from me going there first. they don't have to kill lots of neutrals. they can kill bonus territories and get more armies while I get weaker.

another problem I have is the check point negative bonus. I just feel that there's no incentive to do anything there except take over those first two territories and leave them there forever. at worst you'll have 3 or 4 guys stuck on your K2 or T2 territory.

I think the 'one way' paths on this map are a problem. I love the idea and most of the gameplay, but it seems like this could end up being a stalemate type of game. one person holds he airport another maybe the castle and possibly someone else holding the lower area.

Solutions and Ideas:


Maybe if there were less cars needed to attack that would be better?

Possibly add other routes to get to the important areas. Maybe make the checkpoints into another positive bonus, but also give people the option to go around it? this way there's an incentive to take it over, but also gives other the opportunity to not fall far behind if the first one through is able to hold it for a turn.

If there were less cars and good bonuses at the castle, then there would be an incentive to do all that work.

But, maybe there should be a mountain pass that you can go through to get to the castle. Also, maybe a separate path to get to the airport from the castle?
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Postby bryguy on Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:47 pm

edbeard wrote:well I still think there's no benefit to going for the castle early. you go through all those neutrals FOR everyone else. there's no bonuses over there. whereas in the airport you do HAVE bonuses. there's only one way inside so you'd only need to protect one territory. why am I going to kill 8 neutral territories just to get somewhere that doesn't benefit me bonus wise. other people gain so much from me going there first. they don't have to kill lots of neutrals. they can kill bonus territories and get more armies while I get weaker.

well the only reason u WOULD go for the castle first, is cause u CANNOT get to the airport otherwise
edbeard wrote:another problem I have is the check point negative bonus. I just feel that there's no incentive to do anything there except take over those first two territories and leave them there forever. at worst you'll have 3 or 4 guys stuck on your K2 or T2 territory.


well that might happen, but the thing is, you then cant get the other team. To win u have to get the objective, so u actually dont really want to try and go for the other people. And the check point negative bonus cancels out the other bonus (by a little bit)

I think the 'one way' paths on this map are a problem. I love the idea and most of the gameplay, but it seems like this could end up being a stalemate type of game. one person holds he airport another maybe the castle and possibly someone else holding the lower area.

edbeard wrote:Maybe if there were less cars needed to attack that would be better?


its more fun to have more cars

edbeard wrote:Possibly add other routes to get to the important areas. Maybe make the checkpoints into another positive bonus, but also give people the option to go around it? this way there's an incentive to take it over, but also gives other the opportunity to not fall far behind if the first one through is able to hold it for a turn.


No that would make it TO easy, and besides, its pretty much the only negative on the board

edbeard wrote:If there were less cars and good bonuses at the castle, then there would be an incentive to do all that work.


it seems (to me) that its GOOD that u dont get any bonus' at the castle, cause that makes so that people cant get like a lot more bonus then it already is, and so far most places are +2 each unit held

edbeard wrote:But, maybe there should be a mountain pass that you can go through to get to the castle. Also, maybe a separate path to get to the airport from the castle?


no that would make it to easy
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Postby edbeard on Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:01 pm

I could be wrong but I think Corn Willy wasn't a oneway border before. Either way I didn't see that.

More cars = more fun is a silly comment. Eight cars is excessive. Whoever goes through those cars first is at a disadvantage. Unless you put 1 neutral on each of them, you're doing the work for everyone else. If you're forced to go through that area, then you're at a disadvantage and others will get even further ahead while you're wasting time going through so many territories (even if there's only 1 neutral on them).

Also, what you said about the checkpoint made zero sense to me whatsoever. Everyone has one army in the lower area. Either you'll be one of the four on the right side so you'll be able to go towards the airport right away, or you'll be able to go to the cars. So, taking over each other in the lower area IS a good strategy at this point. You'll start with 5 guys to place. Take over someone else and he only gets 3. Possibly you'll get 7 guys next turn. So, this means taking over the checkpoints will come into play, but if you're the poor sap that needs to do this, you're at a double disadvantage. You can move guys through but you'll be further behind everyone.


Maybe lower the bonus territories to a plus 1. I just feel like going first and getting lucky in the early rounds could be huge on this map.




Edit: also I have a question.

So three areas have eight starting territories. Are you planning on having each of these just open to everyone, so that in a three player game each player would have eight territories, or do you think it would be better if everyone started with one territory in each area? I realize that the XML doesn't allow this currently, but it seems like an interesting idea.
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:24 am

edbeard wrote:More cars = more fun is a silly comment. Eight cars is excessive. Whoever goes through those cars first is at a disadvantage. Unless you put 1 neutral on each of them, you're doing the work for everyone else. If you're forced to go through that area, then you're at a disadvantage and others will get even further ahead while you're wasting time going through so many territories (even if there's only 1 neutral on them).


Guys...what if i made Kontrol 1 border upcar 1,2,3,4 and upcar 1 border upcar 5, upcar 2 border upcar 6, upcar 3 border upcar 7, upcar 4 border upcar 8, and upcars 5,6,7,8 border Kontrol 2.
That would still make 8 cars, but means that there would be four different routes still one-way up that cable car with only two stops.

The same would apply on the down side.
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:39 am

edbeard wrote:I could be wrong but I think Corn Willy wasn't a oneway border before. Either way I didn't see that.

Yes i only just changed that edbeard.....had been thinking about to make it fair for airport mob to get into town and conquer to the castle.

Also, what you said about the checkpoint made zero sense to me whatsoever. Everyone has one army in the lower area. Either you'll be one of the four on the right side so you'll be able to go towards the airport right away, or you'll be able to go to the cars. So, taking over each other in the lower area IS a good strategy at this point. You'll start with 5 guys to place. Take over someone else and he only gets 3. Possibly you'll get 7 guys next turn. So, this means taking over the checkpoints will come into play, but if you're the poor sap that needs to do this, you're at a double disadvantage. You can move guys through but you'll be further behind everyone.



Guys, thanks for your feedback on this checkpoint....strategy isn't exactly one of my strong points so i very much appreciate this input.

With the starters, effectively it meams that no-one can ever be knocked out of the game, as these starters are always in play because of their one-way attack routes. But the checkpoint will make it hard if someone does get knocked out in the other areas, they would still have to battle through whichever checkpoint to even get into the "main game" sts.
That means that someone could clog up those areas using a alrge resource to fight them at the checkpoint. But would it be worth it when the objective is to win certain terts.

I was thinking of making one tert an artillery bombardment that would target the checlpoints and if you held that artillery tert then you could effectively neutralise the -1 bonus.


Maybe lower the bonus territories to a plus 1. I just feel like going first and getting lucky in the early rounds could be huge on this map.


OK...let's keep that one in mind for later.



Edit: also I have a question.

So three areas have eight starting territories. Are you planning on having each of these just open to everyone, so that in a three player game each player would have eight territories, or do you think it would be better if everyone started with one territory in each area? I realize that the XML doesn't allow this currently, but it seems like an interesting idea.


i would prefer to allow one player to start in each area if the xml can be developed to that degree.
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:42 am

bryguy wrote:
edbeard wrote:But, maybe there should be a mountain pass that you can go through to get to the castle. Also, maybe a separate path to get to the airport from the castle?


no that would make it to easy


I agree. And in essence it would take away the story from this map.

The only other way that was used in this story to get up to the castle was by helipcopter.

I really don't want to go there for two reasons:
1. it would make this map too much like King of the mountains
2. as already pointed out, it would be too much easier and probably messier.
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Postby yeti_c on Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:02 pm

cairnswk wrote:
edbeard wrote:More cars = more fun is a silly comment. Eight cars is excessive. Whoever goes through those cars first is at a disadvantage. Unless you put 1 neutral on each of them, you're doing the work for everyone else. If you're forced to go through that area, then you're at a disadvantage and others will get even further ahead while you're wasting time going through so many territories (even if there's only 1 neutral on them).


Guys...what if i made Kontrol 1 border upcar 1,2,3,4 and upcar 1 border upcar 5, upcar 2 border upcar 6, upcar 3 border upcar 7, upcar 4 border upcar 8, and upcars 5,6,7,8 border Kontrol 2.
That would still make 8 cars, but means that there would be four different routes still one-way up that cable car with only two stops.

The same would apply on the down side.


A good idea - but how do you put that in the legend?

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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:00 pm

yeti_c wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
edbeard wrote:More cars = more fun is a silly comment. Eight cars is excessive. Whoever goes through those cars first is at a disadvantage. Unless you put 1 neutral on each of them, you're doing the work for everyone else. If you're forced to go through that area, then you're at a disadvantage and others will get even further ahead while you're wasting time going through so many territories (even if there's only 1 neutral on them).


Guys...what if i made Kontrol 1 border upcar 1,2,3,4 and upcar 1 border upcar 5, upcar 2 border upcar 6, upcar 3 border upcar 7, upcar 4 border upcar 8, and upcars 5,6,7,8 border Kontrol 2.
That would still make 8 cars, but means that there would be four different routes still one-way up that cable car with only two stops.

The same would apply on the down side.


A good idea - but how do you put that in the legend?

C.


Like this Version 7 update.

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Postby yeti_c on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:02 pm

PS Laguerroom B - is the only one that can get to the powder room...

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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:07 pm

yeti_c wrote:PS Laguerroom B - is the only one that can get to the powder room...

C.


No...read the legend please :o
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Postby yeti_c on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:08 pm

cairnswk wrote:
yeti_c wrote:PS Laguerroom B - is the only one that can get to the powder room...

C.


No...read the legend please :o


I meant Laguerroom B - not Laguerroom A...

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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:12 pm

yeti_c wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
yeti_c wrote:PS Laguerroom B - is the only one that can get to the powder room...

C.


No...read the legend please :o


I meant Laguerroom B - not Laguerroom A...

C.


Cairnswk needs to read what he writes in the legend...sorry C.
Fixed in the version above. Please refresh. :)
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:15 pm

Coleman...you can move this if it fits your criteria, thanks. :)
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Postby bryguy on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:21 pm

cant wait to play, its looking great
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Postby yeti_c on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:22 pm

cairnswk wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
yeti_c wrote:PS Laguerroom B - is the only one that can get to the powder room...

C.


No...read the legend please :o


I meant Laguerroom B - not Laguerroom A...

C.


Cairnswk needs to read what he writes in the legend...sorry C.
Fixed in the version above. Please refresh. :)


No worries...

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Postby Herakilla on Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:30 pm

i like the concept, but you will have to put a huge decay on certain territories where players can cut off other players easily such as the check points, whoever can hold those (fat chance i know but still) will effectively be free to roam!
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Postby mibi on Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:18 pm

this map needs a backstory or something... right now it looks like a Minard on acid.
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Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:19 am

mibi wrote:this map needs a backstory or something... right now it looks like a Minard on acid.


Mibi...i looked up minard in the dictionary...can't find it anywhere...care to explain please.
And what exactly do you mean by a backstory...sorry i'm a little dumb to someone such as yourself who is an inventor of ideas :)
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Postby MrBenn on Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:37 am

Just a thought; you could ease congestion on the cablecar, by allowing each car to attack the 2 either side:

  O |
/ | /
| O
\ | \
  O |
/ | /
| O
\ | \
  O |
/ | /
| O

Does that make sense? (sorry about the naff text picture!)
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Postby mibi on Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:15 am

cairnswk wrote:
mibi wrote:this map needs a backstory or something... right now it looks like a Minard on acid.


Mibi...i looked up minard in the dictionary...can't find it anywhere...care to explain please.
And what exactly do you mean by a backstory...sorry i'm a little dumb to someone such as yourself who is an inventor of ideas :)


Minard

and a back story would just be a blurb on what is going on, not related to gameplay.

Like time period, who is what, whats the point, because when you add up the foreign language, foreign gameplay, and foreign looking map, its all quite foreign... a back story would help orient people a bit. In all my ignorance of the subject, it looks like a recreation of the germans invading antarctica in WW2.
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Postby yeti_c on Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:26 am

mibi wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
mibi wrote:this map needs a backstory or something... right now it looks like a Minard on acid.


Mibi...i looked up minard in the dictionary...can't find it anywhere...care to explain please.
And what exactly do you mean by a backstory...sorry i'm a little dumb to someone such as yourself who is an inventor of ideas :)


Minard

and a back story would just be a blurb on what is going on, not related to gameplay.

Like time period, who is what, whats the point, because when you add up the foreign language, foreign gameplay, and foreign looking map, its all quite foreign... a back story would help orient people a bit. In all my ignorance of the subject, it looks like a recreation of the germans invading antarctica in WW2.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065207/

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Postby bryguy on Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:36 am

wonder what this map would be like if all the wording was in german :twisted:



Wahrscheinlich etwas wie dieses, aber es kann nicht sein, könnte es am Ende anders sein, aber immer noch, ach, und ich wäre völlig durcheinander, indem sie
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Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:08 am

mibi wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
mibi wrote:this map needs a backstory or something... right now it looks like a Minard on acid.


Mibi...i looked up minard in the dictionary...can't find it anywhere...care to explain please.
And what exactly do you mean by a backstory...sorry i'm a little dumb to someone such as yourself who is an inventor of ideas :)


Minard

and a back story would just be a blurb on what is going on, not related to gameplay.

Like time period, who is what, whats the point, because when you add up the foreign language, foreign gameplay, and foreign looking map, its all quite foreign... a back story would help orient people a bit. In all my ignorance of the subject, it looks like a recreation of the germans invading antarctica in WW2.


thanks mibi....you input is most valuable as always :) poor old Minard
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Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:10 am

MrBenn wrote:Just a thought; you could ease congestion on the cablecar, by allowing each car to attack the 2 either side:

  O |
/ | /
| O
\ | \
  O |
/ | /
| O
\ | \
  O |
/ | /
| O

Does that make sense? (sorry about the naff text picture!)


It makes very good sense MrBenn. thank you. I had thought about it but just not put it forward.
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Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:12 am

bryguy wrote:wonder what this map would be like if all the wording was in german :twisted:


Goodness, Minard would have a dreadful time,
I think if people really want to know what the german is they'll google or similar; and the foregin language i think adds to the war reality of the map.
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