Operation Drug War [Quenched]

[Marvaddin]

Hi ed and all.

This map doesnt make sense to me:

Drug operation just near the City Hall??? In movies they are always on ports, and we Brazilians think about them on slugs (maybe a better idea). So near the city hall is very strange... And phones attacking phones????

Too much reading to understand the bonuses, too much small bonuses, and a simplist objective, like hold a continent and an specific territory. I think, if the objective is too hard, it will be ignored like in Age of Magic map. If not, it will be taken too easily.

I would also suggest changing the quadrant scheme, I dont think it has the better appeal. And what are those white lines on the streets???

[laci_mae]

Hi Marvaddin,

Let me try to field some of your concerns. It is clear that much of this map is based on a cultural experience. I too associate large players in the drug trade with international ports. (I'm not sure what a slug is in Brazil. Here it is a bug.) However, all of the small time drug trade and use goes on in the cities. Often the areas around city hall or the state capitols are pretty run down. These buildings were built in the nicest part of town some 40 or 50 years ago. Now, these areas are often thought of as impoverished. Based on this, the setting for the map is on point.

You also voiced concerns about the difficulty of the objectives, the bonus structure, and the overall design. The variety of maps available on CC reflects the variety of members. We could have a thread where everyone lists their top 5 favorite maps, and almost everyone's post would be different. Personally, I'm not very experienced with objective focused maps; however, I see their value for the site. What I'm very politely trying not to say is, you don't have to play it.

And, finally, I agree. What are those white lines for?

Best,
LMR

[oaktown]

Drug operation just near the City Hall??? In movies they are always on ports, and we Brazilians think about them on slugs (maybe a better idea). So near the city hall is very strange...

You should come up to california... hang out within two blocks of city hall in San Francisco, LA, or Oakland and somebody will assume you're looking to score.

And phones attacking phones????

The phones are kinda funny... everybody has cell phones these days!

Too much reading to understand the bonuses, too much small bonuses, and a simplist objective, like hold a continent and an specific territory. I think, if the objective is too hard, it will be ignored like in Age of Magic map. If not, it will be taken too easily.

I tend to agree that maps are getting a bit too heavy on the rules. I tend to avoid playing maps if I have to constantly keep referring to the legend to know who can attack me where, but that's a personal preference not shared by everybody on CC. If you guys finalize the bonuses, legend wording, and the starting neutral values this should be pretty close to wrapping up the gameplay issues.

[mibi]

Something bugs me about this map. I think its the combination of realism and unrealism.

Top down view with desks and couches. Cool
Top down view with rooms with nothing in them. Not Cool.

Streets with no sidewalks?
City blocks so uniform and rectangular?
Whats up with those white lines in the streets?

The topic seems dark, the gameplay is advanced, but the graphical execution is a bit child play, which serves as a rather jarring dichotomy.

[babinecz]

just looks like prohibition chicago, and is still a stupid idea

[gimil]

What the story with this ed? Where are we with it?

[edbeard]

at the moment, I'm busy with other things. I'll send a PM to Telvannia about other concerns. I'm sure Tel is busy too.


I'm planning on using coloured text to help distinguish where the objectives and some of the bonuses are.

Right now all the text is see-thru, but I'll make the objective territories black. And, the three inside corner bonuses will be made into colours as well.

The other route we could take is to colour the territories in the corners which go with the mini-bonuses. (Stash, counter, runner, junkie, maybe even boss and muscle).


As far as some of the other comments, I'll address them as I see fit.

phones are necessary to give more movement around the map

I believe those white lines are street lights. I'd have to ask Telvannia though.

This map is similar to Prohibition in that they are both set in a city and are conquer club maps.

The quadrant scheme works for the gameplay we have here. It's a symmetrical map in one way, but not in another. It's not meant for epic games so that's why the objective is fairly easy. Some tinkering is definitely needed though. I think the Hideout sector needs a boost for one. Maybe a slight bonus increase for each muscle (when you have 2nd or Leader).

It is 'rules heavy' but how many times do you have to play a 'rules heavy' map before you figure out how it works? The key is to make sure it's easy enough for people to play on their first go around. I think we're meeting that by colour coordination (either by text as I've said above or possibly making the territories colour coordinated). That combined with the legend actually telling you what the bonuses are is plenty.

We're still tackling the graphics so any suggestions of what to put in territories would be helpful.

[laci_mae]

just looks like prohibition chicago, and is still a stupid idea

My mother always told me if you don't have anything nice to say, keep your damn mouth shut.

LMR

[edbeard]

v9
v8
v7
v6
v5


What you need to know

1. This is an objective map. Four different ones that all include holding the main stash.
2. There are 24 starting territories. Everything starts neutral except the 8 patrol cars, the 4 corner bosses, the 4 runners, the 4 corner junkies, the 4 counters.
That's 4*4 + 8 = 16 + 8 = 24
3. There are 35 other territories that start out as neutral
4. Number of neutrals on those territories has yet to be determined. Proposed 2 on all with the exceptions of 4 on objective territories and 6 on Main Stash


Just done:

1. changed NW corner graphics (if good will change rest of corners as well).

2. added graphics to Hideout

3. added graphics to Vacants. Probably need to add some more to the northern part of this sector.

4. Added colours to sector bonuses and correspondingly added colours to the territory label text to match. These need to be tinkered with to be more readable and not to blend in with background.



To do:

1. finalize neutral values

2. finish art throughout.

3. Thorough gameplay discussion

[laci_mae]

Hey Ed,

I like the color coded labels indicating bonuses.

I don't know about the green (new) graphics. I kinda dig the existing color scheme.

I'm confused about why the Driver territory has a table instead of a car. Also, I'm still not comfortable with the supplier territory graphics. It's better because you shifted the label, but having it still looks like the table and the helicopter should be separate territories. Please consider making this one box with one graphical feature.

The three columns could be made equal in width. There is a lot of extra space in the middle column because there are only 5 or 6 territories whereas the narrower outer columns have up to 8 territories in a section.

Is there a bonus for holding the Stash House?

Do you have to hold the whole objective at the beginning of a turn or just by the end of a turn to win?

These comments should keep you busy for now.

Keep up the good work SM

LMR

[oaktown]

phones are necessary to give more movement around the map

What if they were changed to Garages? Cars? You could say that each garage can attack each other, and even throw in some "drive-by" bombardments if you wanted.

Some tinkering is definitely needed though. I think the Hideout sector needs a boost for one. Maybe a slight bonus increase for each muscle (when you have 2nd or Leader).

A thorough discussion about bonuses is needed... but I don't have it in me right now.

It is 'rules heavy' but how many times do you have to play a 'rules heavy' map before you figure out how it works?

There are a lot of rules, but not so many that it isn't playable. For me what is making this map a bit hard to follow is that the legend is still a work in progress. Once some elements of the legend are cleaned up I think the rules will be easier to follow... e.g. the line breaks, words bleeding over lines, extraneous information like the date and time, clunky font, the block in the middle breaking it up, the symbols that get a bit lost in the background, etc.

[edbeard]

Hey Ed,

I like the color coded labels indicating bonuses.

I don't know about the green (new) graphics. I kinda dig the existing color scheme.

I like this version better. It adds more to the map instead of just being plain. It doesn't make sense to have details in 5 sectors and not in the corners

I'm confused about why the Driver territory has a table instead of a car. Also, I'm still not comfortable with the supplier territory graphics. It's better because you shifted the label, but having it still looks like the table and the helicopter should be separate territories. Please consider making this one box with one graphical feature.

I'll pass this comment on to Telvannia

The three columns could be made equal in width. There is a lot of extra space in the middle column because there are only 5 or 6 territories whereas the narrower outer columns have up to 8 territories in a section.

They could be but I don't think it makes much of a difference. The Stash House sector needed to be somewhat big so I think it all works.


Is there a bonus for holding the Stash House?

There is not. I don't want anyone holding that for a bonus. You want people getting bonuses and objective areas on the outside and fighting to hold the main stash too.

Do you have to hold the whole objective at the beginning of a turn or just by the end of a turn to win?

Beginning of your turn. Everyone gets a chance to stop you.

SM

:hoping you're a girl face:

LMR

thanks!

phones are necessary to give more movement around the map

What if they were changed to Garages? Cars? You could say that each garage can attack each other, and even throw in some "drive-by" bombardments if you wanted.

Well there's plenty of cars on the map already (as you'll see from the mini-update below), but Phones work because they'd be located in a public place. Communication and movement are synonymous!

I believe those white lines are street lights. I'd have to ask Telvannia though.

we got rid of them as you'll see below

It is 'rules heavy' but how many times do you have to play a 'rules heavy' map before you figure out how it works?

There are a lot of rules, but not so many that it isn't playable. For me what is making this map a bit hard to follow is that the legend is still a work in progress. Once some elements of the legend are cleaned up I think the rules will be easier to follow... e.g. the line breaks, words bleeding over lines, extraneous information like the date and time, clunky font, the block in the middle breaking it up, the symbols that get a bit lost in the background, etc.

I'll pass this comment on to Telvannia as well

thanks!




Mini-update. Just put some cars and people into the map. Also got rid of the street lights. Telvannia is on extended break from outside stuff so I flew over to the UK and locked him in his room. He'll be working on his Dark Age Britain map, but hopefully we can get the graphics done at the least and a regular update soon

[t-o-m]

just looks like prohibition chicago, and is still a stupid idea

it looks like it a bit - thats not a bad thing, the gameplay is different, and i like it..
i bet youve not even read the thread and you had a quick glance at it and decided that you would post a stupid snide remark..

--tom

[edbeard]

v10
v9
v8
v7
v6
v5


What you need to know

1. This is an objective map. Four different ones that all include holding the main stash.
2. There are 24 starting territories. Everything starts neutral except the 8 patrol cars, the 4 corner bosses, the 4 runners, the 4 corner junkies, the 4 counters.
That's 4*4 + 8 = 16 + 8 = 24
3. There are 35 other territories that start out as neutral
4. Number of neutrals on those territories has yet to be determined. Proposed 2 on all with the exceptions of 4 on objective territories and 6 on Main Stash


Just done:

1. added people to most of the sectors

2. made legend less cluttered (hopefully?)

3. coloured bonuses for the corners



To do:

1. finalize neutral values

2. finish art throughout.

3. Thorough gameplay discussion

[edbeard]

lets gets some gameplay discussion going


1. Ed, won't everyone just go after the patrols in 2 player games? It seems like the 5 patrols for +4 could be a killer.

Well you might be right about people trying this. 8 patrols are starting but remember that 4 of them occur in the corners. So, at least one of them will be attackable from a corner.

There are quite a lot of +1 bonuses to be had in the corners and honestly these are probably easier to hold especially if you go after one corner.

To be frank, two player games aren't the optimal size for this map, and also starting with 5 of the 8 patrols (especially when you only start with 8 territories) is not that likely. It'll be more optimal to go after smaller bonuses first (which is the idea).


2. It seems like City Hall is the best way to go. Patrols are starting territories so getting that bonus is easier than the muscle bonus.

True it's slightly easier but it's only +1 per patrol, and you have to hold BOTH the Lieutenant and the Commissioner. The Hideout version of this bonus gives you +2 per muscle and you only need either the leader or the boss. Each muscle only starts with 2 neutrals on it anyway. Also, the Attorney can backdoor you by going through the D.A. to get to either the Commissioner or the Lieutenant.

Furthermore, the Detective has a straight route to the Lieutenant to stop this bonus.


3. Why would anyone go after the Vacants or Supply?

The Vacants can stop bonuses via the stick-up man by bombarding stashes. And, they can stop the objective by bombarding the main stash from the stick-up man.

The Supply sector doesn't give you many armies but you have your own personal route to the main stash.


4. It seems like there are a lot of starting neutrals on the map?

That's true, but most territories only have 2 neutral armies on them.

Phones give you bonuses for holding them and are an alternative to the patrols to moving around the map.

There's always an incentive for taking over neutrals. Taking over neutrals gives you movement and/or bonus help.

[laci_mae]

Hi SM,

I was wondering how you're doing with the updates. The thread has fallen quiet, so I wanted to check in. I don't think there's much to comment on until you get the new graphics throughout. Is there anything specific you'd like feedback on before then?

* What is the round white thing in "Counter" in the new graphics?

:I'm a girl face:

Best,
LMR

[edbeard]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

v11
v10
v9
v8
v7
v6
v5


What you need to know

1. This is an objective map. Four different ones that all include holding the main stash.
2. There are 24 starting territories. Everything starts neutral except the 8 patrol cars, the 4 corner bosses, the 4 runners, the 4 corner junkies, the 4 counters.
That's 4*4 + 8 = 16 + 8 = 24
3. There are 35 other territories that start out as neutral
4. Number of neutrals on those territories has yet to be determined. Proposed 2 on all with the exceptions of 4 on objective territories and 6 on Main Stash


Just done:

1. graphics done! Lets give Telvannia a round of applause for the great job he's done on this.
2. corner graphics finished
3. added phone bonus back to legend that got taken off accidentally
4. Large map added!
5. Legend tinkering

To do:

1. finish gameplay talk
2. finalize neutral values
3. fix stash borders in south corners

Points of Discussion:

1. Laci I believe that is a water fountain

[oaktown]

Legend thought: What if you start with the title where it is, but put the mini-map below it. This would allow you to have one or two columns of legend data to the right of the title/mini map in an unbroken block. And while I don't love the choice of font, I recognize the look you're going for... but maybe lose the italics on it? I'm cool with the look of the map itself, but the legend still seems clunky.

[edbeard]

Legend thought: What if you start with the title where it is, but put the mini-map below it. This would allow you to have one or two columns of legend data to the right of the title/mini map in an unbroken block. And while I don't love the choice of font, I recognize the look you're going for... but maybe lose the italics on it? I'm cool with the look of the map itself, but the legend still seems clunky.

I passed this along to Telvannia


Since you're the gameplay stamp dude, how about your thoughts on that? Here's how the starting territories and neutrals look

Click image to enlarge.

[oaktown]

Since you're the gameplay stamp dude, how about your thoughts on that? Here's how the starting territories and neutrals look

For starters, I consider the user-friendliness of the legend a pretty key part of the map's gameplay. If your map is hard to figure out, it's going to impact the play and, ultimately, the popularity of the map.

As for the starting counts, I'll try to take a closer look at them at some point, but my general feeling is that you know the map best, ed, so unless something looks way out of whack I'll leave that up to you. You may end up doing little tweaks here and there, but as long as the starting values don't put one player at an early advantage/disadvantage I suspect the starting values are fine.

[edbeard]

sounds good.


one thing I'd like your thoughts on though is the patrols bonus. since players start with them, that bonus might be something they go after early on. Do you think increasing it to 6 patrols for the +4 or decreasing the bonus to +3 would be beneficial?

[AndyDufresne]

Regarding patrols, **scratches his chin, eats a banana** you could bump the number up to 6. I think I like that more than bumping the value down to 3....hm


--Andy

[oaktown]

Regarding patrols, **scratches his chin, eats a banana** you could bump the number up to 6. I think I like that more than bumping the value down to 3....hm

I would go the other way. I'd like to see a map in which players actually go after the objective rather than just pummel each other. I'd be in favor of giving less value to the territories/regions on which everybody starts, and make it more advantageous to expand into new turf/go after the victory objectives.

But then,it's late and I'm tired, so I should look more closely at the bonuses when I have fresher eyes.

[edbeard]

A.
I think I'll go with needing 6 patrols AND making it +3

I don't want patrols to be the focus in 1v1 games (even though this map is more of a 4 player game. at least I think anyway).


B.
Another thought/question is the bonuses in the Hideout Sector. Do you think there's enough incentive to go there?
1. You get +2 per muscle if you hold either leader or 2nd. It's fairly easy to get muscle though because all muscle start with 2 neutrals.
2. Only connection is the phone and the attorney (via DA).


C.
What do you think of the bonuses for the sectors? (the mini-map bonuses)

[gimil]

I havent really got any major concerns but can I see a small image without the starting numbers on it please?