Operation Drug War [Quenched]

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Postby Coleman on Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:08 am

It's a good idea if it is presented right. You make the drug guys look like all the sterotypical criminals in like Lonney Toons and whatever (old middle aged, unshaven or big and stupid looking, or baby sized with an ugly face, you know, people kids don't idolize at all) and the good guys like the cool police officers in a lot of anti-drug stuff I think it would be funny for us old people and pretty good for the younger players.

You'd need to word the bonuses more of like pursuing the bad guys though, like a continent of thugs would be "Isolated Mickey's Gang" or something instead of "Controlling Mickey's Gang".

Corner and arrest the gangs, recover the stash, put them in jail, save the day. That kind of thing. (And doing it before your opponents)
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Postby bryguy on Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:12 am

Coleman wrote:It's a good idea if it is presented right. You make the drug guys look like all the sterotypical criminals in like Lonney Toons and whatever (old middle aged, unshaven or big and stupid looking, or baby sized with an ugly face, you know, people kids don't idolize at all) and the good guys like the cool police officers in a lot of anti-drug stuff I think it would be funny for us old people and pretty good for the younger players.

You'd need to word the bonuses more of like pursuing the bad guys though, like a continent of thugs would be "Isolated Mickey's Gang" or something instead of "Controlling Mickey's Gang".

Corner and arrest the gangs, recover the stash, put them in jail, save the day. That kind of thing. (And doing it before your opponents)


yea it could be an objective :-k
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Postby mibi on Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:23 am

Coleman wrote:This looks pretty educational to me. If you make the drug aligned look really undesirable and very very away from cool (dirty) then I don't see a problem. Make the police look very much like the good guys in this scenario, like the D.A.R.E. dog, Superman and such.

As long as you aren't encouraging anyone to actual be a drug lord and you make the map feel more like you are attacking the drug lord then being one it should be pretty good.


word, legalize it. :twisted:
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Postby Elijah S on Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:31 am

oaktown wrote:I know it's a game, and that it's a game about war, but by being such it glorifies war and ignores the violence associated with it. There are certain types of violence that don't need to be glorified any more than they already are - if we make a map that diminishes the impact of a form of violence that lies close to people in their day to day lives, such a map would be in bad taste.

Of course, it will always be a matter of opinion where we cross the line of bad taste; making a concentration camp map would be considered by most to cross the line, as would a map of Columbine High School, UVa, or the Omaha mall where the shooting took place recently. The Iraq map is personal to many, and has had many detractors. This idea may be in bad taste as well, as it has already provoked some negative feedback..


I agree with Oaktown on this one.
With the major debate currently going on about Flame Wars, which I see as an effort by CC brass to present a more family oriented site, I think this idea, while having some merit, may be pushing the envelope a little too far.
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Postby Coleman on Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:48 am

Keep reading, I think if edbeard is willing to change the orientation and graphics of it towards my idea it shouldn't offend anyone.

It would also be helpful to not tie this to any real place.
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Postby babinecz on Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:29 pm

i'm sorry man, but i live in baltimore (as i'm sure many other poor areas of cities are like) and it's not cool like the wire...it's probably just a sore topic of mine, but people watch the wire all the time and think "oh yo, marlo is the shit." I'm not saying that you see it that way either, but the idea of making the map with "stash houses" "runners" and "corner boys" is testament to the very same glorification of it. Lots of lives are destroyed everyday and have been being destroyed for the past 30 years. It's messed up shit. maybe it's just me though. There are no maps that speak to contemporary issues (iraq war map under discussion, and i understand those who object to it), and I believe there is a reason for that. That's all I'm saying.
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Postby edbeard on Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:52 pm

well when I sit down for an hour or two to clean this up, what I'm going to do is make it somewhat like a tic-tac-toe board. What I mean is there will be two horizontal and two vertical roads. Instead of the lined attack routes I have now, it'll be easier just to separate the areas like a normal map.


As for the graphics, I'll leave that to whoever ends up doing it (if I can find someone). I hadn't thought of doing it in a cartoony way. But, that might work. I thought that this map could be a good opportunity for someone to show us some good looking city graphics.


I'm not glorifying this subject by any means. It just happens to be something that, in my mind, works well for a CC map. Hold a corner (notice that the patrol car is part of the corner) for a bonus. You can think about that as putting them away if you want. Two objectives, one for Police one for the Gang. In my mind, if it's something that you personally are against and don't want to play, then that's fine. But, at the same time, that's not a reason why other people should not be allowed to play on it.

I realize this subject is sensitive as people die or have lives ruined from drugs or the violence that surrounds it everyday. We do have the Bamboo Jack map which is also part of a touchy subject. Perhaps like that map, a suitable quote for the drug war type situation could be added. I'm not saying that makes everything OK, but it does at least acknowledge the bad situation.


That being said, I'm going to pursue this idea until I'm told by Andy or Lack to stop. Or, until I see that the foundry is not supporting the idea.
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Postby Halmir on Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:40 pm

On a gaming site that is devoted to war and violence (albeit imaginary), this is just a different take on it. We have maps about Pearl Harbour (or Harbor in US speak) which surely could be regarded as a far more criminal act, with a vastly higher actual death toll, than what's being proposed here? But the map still got made.

The Bamboo Jack POW map has already been mentioned, that had a far higher casualty list against defenceless POWs (having surrendered, and not even in armed and armoured battleships) and civilians. I think 20-25,000 men died building that damn railway. But the map still got made.

And we then have all the other maps where the spirit of fun shines through, which is what this site is about - playing against your fellow man (or woman) and cursing the evil dice! To me this map suggested that some of the police are in the pay of the mobs, well perhaps they are, but if u can get a bonus by stamping that out then we have a crusade against crime map. The cartoon-style could be a laugh - remember these guys from Bugs Bunny? http://content.answers.com/main/content ... _Mugsy.jpg

Make the map if you can, then let the folks here see a draft and then we can see what we think?

The other thing you could do is to add a Prison section, and if u control the Prison and/or a gang area or a police area, adjust the bonuses to reward the cops or punish the bad guys!
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Postby edbeard on Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:05 am

Image

remember that the other three corners that have no labels or borers will be the same as the SW corner.


here's a slightly better draft that I think makes it easier to discuss gameplay. As I said, I don't see myself doing the graphics on this one, but I'd prefer the realistic route graphics-wise. I was thinking something old-school GTA style with the overhead look. So I guess slightly cartoony, but in a realistic way. Again I think the city here is a big opportunity for someone to go wild with the graphics.


Again, 24 starting territories and the main goal is to get people to go for the objectives. I think each starting neutral will have the standard three armies INCLUDING the main stash. This helps direct Objective play and either Objective requires six territories, so it's not exactly a cakewalk.

I changed a few gameplay quirks.

1. No more attack lines. It's just much easier to do it this way.
2. Patrol Cars connect to each other only directionally not to every single one.
3. Changed a few of the bonus numbers
4. Patrol cars only connect to PEOPLE in the sectors (not to phones, stashes, or garage).



Lets get some gameplay discussion going!!
Last edited by edbeard on Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby edbeard on Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:34 pm

oops. shamelessly bumping my own thread instead of editing my last post.


1. I forgot to put the phone in the Vacants. There is supposed to be one there.
2. The legend still has some of the old names like Prosecutor instead of D.A. and Captain instead of Commissioner
3. I didn't explicitly mention that the bonuses such as Junkie + Stash only occur in their respective sectors. So, I can't hold the SW Stash and the SE Junkie to get a bonus.


What do you guys think about making the objectives slightly easier. I was thinking of possibly reducing the number of territories needed somehow. Possibly splitting them up into four instead of two. So, there would be four different objectives.

1. hold the D.A., judge and Main Stash
2. hold the Dectective, Junkie CI, and the Main Stash.
3. hold the Leader, 2nd, and Main Stash
OR
4. hold the Supplier, Driver and Main Stash

If this was the case, I'd probably add another connection to the Supply sector. Possibly something like Supplier and Leader directly connect.

Thoughts?
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Postby mibi on Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:52 pm

you only have one junkie... can't make a living off that.


you need many junkies.
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Postby edbeard on Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:55 pm

I thought I mentioned this? Each corner is the same as the southwest. I should probably re-mention that.

Or, maybe you were just making a joke?
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Postby edbeard on Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:51 pm

the more I think about this idea, the more I like it. So, for the moment, I don't care that I'm talking to myself.


The 'four possible objectives' idea has grown on me. Three territories needed for each objective. Two in each of the sectors (side and top), and one in the middle. Going after each of the four seems to be relatively equal in difficulty. Each sector has their own strengths and weaknesses.

I think it might be a good idea to add a 9th patrol car in the Hideout sector for a couple reasons. First it allows someone to start in that sector whereas at the moment no one does. Second, it brings the starting territories up to twenty-five, so five player games will have no starting neutrals (instead of four), and it only adds one neutral to the rest of the game types.
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Postby Contron13542 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:20 pm

bryguy wrote:
Coleman wrote:This looks pretty educational to me. If you make the drug aligned look really undesirable and very very away from cool (dirty) then I don't see a problem. Make the police look very much like the good guys in this scenario, like the D.A.R.E. dog, Superman and such.

As long as you aren't encouraging anyone to actual be a drug lord and you make the map feel more like you are attacking the drug lord then being one it should be pretty good.


your actually half supporting this idea?!?!?!?!


to me its a HORRIBLE idea!!!!!!!


it's a good idea, but it needs work.
This map can be done without offending people, but a healthy compromise needs to be reached between those in favor and those against.
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Postby mibi on Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:01 am

you need an update.
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Postby Coleman on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:35 pm

mibi wrote:you need an update.
word. :lol:
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controversial

Postby brooksieb on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:58 pm

wud raise some eyebrows but i think i wud like it
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Postby edbeard on Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:46 pm

mibi wrote:you need an update.


yea. It only took about thirty minutes to do, but two weeks to get around to do it. Holidays and all you know

Image


Changes:

1. made the four objectives official
2. filled in the other three corners
3. adjusted the City Hall bonus and the muscle bonus (when holding 2nd or Leader)


Graphic Plans:

So, still don't have anyone to do them yet, but I haven't exactly been asking around. Let me know if you're interested via PM.

My idea is still to have it be in oldschool GTA style (overhead view). People will be represented BY PEOPLE. So, this makes the Patrol cars can only attack PEOPLE in the areas thing a lot easier.

If you're concerned about the stashes on the map. I think showing drugs on the map would be very tacky. They can easily be represented by backpacks, tires or something else.

I still say the city setting for this map provides a lot of opportunities for an artist looking to do something.


NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK.


Let's talk gameplay people! Thanks.


edit: I see the +2 for per 2 phones thing. which I keep meaning to change to +2 for every 2 phones
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Postby Coleman on Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:53 pm

Is this going to be conquest? I hope not.
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Postby edbeard on Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:57 pm

Coleman wrote:Is this going to be conquest? I hope not.


I don't know what that means exactly. I can guess though.

The instructions on the map tell you where you start. My first post also tells you there are 24 starting territories.
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Postby Coleman on Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:59 pm

Okay, I'll review this later when I don't have 20 different things I need to do. Hope you can wait. :)
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Postby yeti_c on Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:07 am

I think that your Objectives may be a bit easy...

They do have the "Main Stash" as a common component though - so it could turn out that 3 different people are fighting over the main stash to win!!

But how many neutrals are going on the Main stash?

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Postby edbeard on Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:33 am

yep. the objectives are easy! Currently, I had planned for every neutral starting territory to have three armies on it, including the main stash.

I wasn't thinking that we'd have long battles on this map. Everyone starts in the corners and each objective has its own ups and downs. It's almost like a symmetrical map, but I think the objectives and the differences between the top, bottom, and sides give it the little wrinkle that makes it different from a standard symmetrical map.

It certainly could be possible for drawn out battles on the map though. No one able to hold the main stash. It'd take a delicate balance to hurt the other guy enough where he won't hold it, but not so much that another player can swoop in and take the game. What a great idea this map is!! (self promotion much?)




Lets break down the gameplay a bit.

Each corner, if you hold the whole thing, gives you a +7. You have to take over quite a bit, but there's only 2 borders (3 if someone owns the stickup man). But, you're not anywhere on your way to getting the objective.

Supply only gives you +3 but it has its own route to the main stash. The only way in is through the phone and the patrol car. Still, maybe I should increase this bonus compared to the others.

Vacants is +3 to deploy anywhere and +2 directly on the stickup. There's no phone here so the only way in is the Patrol or the Detective, but that's only from the Lieutenant. And, this is a good 'stop other people from winning or bonuses' area, because of the stickup man.

City Hall would give you +6 total. It has a lot of borders though. Patrol and Phone of course, and the D.A. and Lieutenant from Attorney and Detective respectively. The bonus for patrol is nice. You need to hold both commish and lieutenant, but you probably start with some patrol since they don't start out as neutral.

Hideout is +5 and it only has two borders. The phone and the attorney. Maybe this is too powerful. But, in order to get extra bonuses from holding either 2nd or Leader, you'd need to take over neutral Muscle. Also, since there's no patrol here this area starts completely neutral. So, maybe that cancels everything out.

Stash House. This is where the magic happens. You can get in through phone or patrol. But you have to go through muscle to get to the Main Stash. The driver can get to the garage, but the main stash is the only part of Stash House area that connects to the garage. It's quite a nice way to sneak in behind everyone's back.
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Postby mibi on Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:00 am

i think you need to simplify the legend if you want to get feed back on this one. No one will give feedback unless they understand whats going on, and currently you have this 'wall of text' thing going on in the legend.

So try sorting out the legend, grouping, reducing, anything you can to make it easy and quick to understand.
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Postby Coleman on Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:35 am

Yeah, make the bonuses some sort of list column, and the objective a list column. Not sure what to do about the gameplay one though. Guess it'd stay a wall of text in a third column....
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