Europa [Quenched]

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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby sublimeoneus on Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:04 pm

So transcontinental/motherland is +4 and +1?
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby saaimen on Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:30 pm

No... Motherland bonus is +1 for Russia and KGD. But when you have Transcontinental, both countries (and the 1 bonus) are included in the continent. So +1 for Russia and KGD, or +4 for all of the Transcontinental (brown) regions.

EDIT: I was wrong here. Ignore the above.
Last edited by saaimen on Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:06 am

sublimeoneus wrote:So transcontinental/motherland is +4 and +1?

Actually, sublimeoneus is right here - the whole of transcontinental will give +5
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:49 am

PM sent to lackattack with the update images:
MrBenn wrote:Image
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby e_i_pi on Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:14 am

I just played my first game on this map, got brilliant dice and won... thanks for including the dice hack Benn, great work ;)

One area I misinterpreted was Sicily->Sardinia->Balearics. I thought there was a route from Sicily straight to Balearics. I know now that it isn't, but that's the only misinterpretation I found on the map, everything else was straight forward and easy to understand.

Oh, Croatia to Montenegro is a funny one, but I'm aware of the borders in that stretch of the woods, and it's easy to see on the big map anyhow.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby saaimen on Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:51 am

MrBenn wrote:
sublimeoneus wrote:So transcontinental/motherland is +4 and +1?

Actually, sublimeoneus is right here - the whole of transcontinental will give +5

I'm sorry about that, I got it wrong. In fact I didn't know myself, even though I've had that bonus in our doubles game. I hadn't checked the log very well, I thought I got 4 for it anyway. My bad.
BUT even though I know it's my mistake, maybe the line of text about the Transcontinental bonus could be clearer. Now it says 'includes KGD', and that's why I assumed it also included the specific Russia-KGD bonus... Also, the "motherland; +1" is standing there completely apart of other continents. Others might also think the brown continent overrules this small bonus.
Or am I way off, and should I just shut up :D?
e_i_pi wrote:One area I misinterpreted was Sicily->Sardinia->Balearics. I thought there was a route from Sicily straight to Balearics. I know now that it isn't, but that's the only misinterpretation I found on the map, everything else was straight forward and easy to understand.

I did see that Sicily-Balearics is impossible, but somehow I thought Sardinia bordered Monaco :s... When I look again, I can't blame it on the map, but somehow it seemed logical at first.
How about letting all the seapaths arrive at completely different spots? Faroe&Norway->Iceland could be more separated (Faroe seapath to the southern tip of Iceland?), as could Sicily&Balearics->Sardinia (more sideways), Sardinia&Monaco->Corsica (Sardinia->Corsica around the East of Corsica?), and Crete&Turkey->Cyprus (Crete->Cyprus around southern tip of Cyprus?)...
These are mere suggestions to make those a bit clearer, of course. If there's not a lot of problems in beta play, maybe it's not worth the effort :)
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:27 am

Of all the sea route - I really think the only one that is misleading is the sicily -> Balearics...

All the other ones it's quite obvious that the track goes in and out - but with that one - it looks like it might flow past.

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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby Thezzaruz on Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:36 am

MrBenn wrote:-Text explaining the Kaliningrad (KGD) is part of the transcontinental region has been added to the bottom corner
-An additional label for Italy has been added

IMO both of these are unneccesary and look poor. Good work on the sea routes though.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby e_i_pi on Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:50 am

yeti_c wrote:Of all the sea route - I really think the only one that is misleading is the sicily -> Balearics...

All the other ones it's quite obvious that the track goes in and out - but with that one - it looks like it might flow past.

C.

Yeah this is exactly what got me yeti. There are maps with 3-way borders, like um... Nubia, I think it is with the Well of Rameses. I guess there's others too not that I can think of them off the top of my head.

I think just shifting where one of the sea routes ends will make it clear
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:04 am

I've updated the Balearics-Sardinia route - a refresh will load the updated images ^^
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:13 am

MrBenn wrote:I've updated the Balearics-Sardinia route - a refresh will load the updated images ^^


Works for me.

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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:22 am

Looks like I updated it just in time - it's live already!
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby Shatners Bassoon on Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:18 pm

Shatners Bassoon wrote:don't know if this has been highlighted yet,but you don't seem to be receiving your bonus armies for holding Transcontinental.


see DAZMFC's position in Game 3510697



actually i was right the first time,the above post still stands.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:02 pm

Shatners Bassoon wrote:
Shatners Bassoon wrote:don't know if this has been highlighted yet,but you don't seem to be receiving your bonus armies for holding Transcontinental.


see DAZMFC's position in Game 3510697



actually i was right the first time,the above post still stands.

You might notice a new line of text on the map that says 'transcontinental includes kaliningrad/kgd, an exclave of russia'
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby Shatners Bassoon on Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:54 pm

MrBenn wrote:
Shatners Bassoon wrote:
Shatners Bassoon wrote:don't know if this has been highlighted yet,but you don't seem to be receiving your bonus armies for holding Transcontinental.


see DAZMFC's position in Game 3510697



actually i was right the first time,the above post still stands.

You might notice a new line of text on the map that says 'transcontinental includes kaliningrad/kgd, an exclave of russia'

nope,don't see that anywhere i'm afraid.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:58 pm

Shatners Bassoon wrote:
MrBenn wrote:You might notice a new line of text on the map that says 'transcontinental includes kaliningrad/kgd, an exclave of russia'

nope,don't see that anywhere i'm afraid.

Look in the bottom right-hand corner...
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:25 pm

Press F5!!!

C.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby Shatners Bassoon on Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:37 pm

yeti_c wrote:Press F5!!!

C.




Ok,done.....sorry i didn't know about the "magic button"! :roll:
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby Nikolai on Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:42 pm

Okay, from previous Foundry experience I know this is going to come off as me being a jerk, so I want to be clear that I've been avoiding the Foundry for a while, and I know I'm coming in late to this thread, and haven't really contributed enough to "earn" an opinion... but I think one productive purpose of the "Beta" status is to incur comments like this one, from fresh users who haven't been involved with the map from the beginning, so don't take this personally.

I think this map, in terms of graphics, looks... hideous. Following the overseas connections is hard on the eyes, requiring actual concentration to determine what connects where - something that needs to be very intuitive. The color and texturing is very flat and boring, resulting in a distinctly childish look. Beyond looks, a name key so extensive is indicative of a map that is attempting to do too much in too little space. The continent values do not seem to have taken choke numbers into account with any regularity, and seem decidedly unbalanced. It's not clear whether Kaliningrad is part of "transcontinental" or not. And while the cities in Italy are an interesting idea, it leaves me extremely confused with regards to how Andorra and Gibraltar are supposed to work.

This map still needs a lot of work, if it's a doable idea at all within the established size constraints. My inclination is to say that it won't work because the premise is an accurate map of Europe, and today's European map wasn't made by people looking for a balanced game... it was made by politicians. Turning it into a playable map is going to take more effort, and making it look decent will take even more.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby ZeakCytho on Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:48 pm

Nikolai wrote:Okay, from previous Foundry experience I know this is going to come off as me being a jerk, so I want to be clear that I've been avoiding the Foundry for a while, and I know I'm coming in late to this thread, and haven't really contributed enough to "earn" an opinion... but I think one productive purpose of the "Beta" status is to incur comments like this one, from fresh users who haven't been involved with the map from the beginning, so don't take this personally.

I think this map, in terms of graphics, looks... hideous. Following the overseas connections is hard on the eyes, requiring actual concentration to determine what connects where - something that needs to be very intuitive. The color and texturing is very flat and boring, resulting in a distinctly childish look. Beyond looks, a name key so extensive is indicative of a map that is attempting to do too much in too little space. The continent values do not seem to have taken choke numbers into account with any regularity, and seem decidedly unbalanced. It's not clear whether Kaliningrad is part of "transcontinental" or not. And while the cities in Italy are an interesting idea, it leaves me extremely confused with regards to how Andorra and Gibraltar are supposed to work.

This map still needs a lot of work, if it's a doable idea at all within the established size constraints. My inclination is to say that it won't work because the premise is an accurate map of Europe, and today's European map wasn't made by people looking for a balanced game... it was made by politicians. Turning it into a playable map is going to take more effort, and making it look decent will take even more.


I'm going to have to disagree with pretty much everything you said. The sea connections were hard to read, but after the fix, they're much better. The coloring and texturing are personal preference, but I like them. I don't see why using the ISO codes is bad - the abbreviations are for gameplay, the key is for those interesting in knowing what places are what. I don't have a problem with the bonus values, though perhaps some of them are not as great as they could be - do you have a specific problem? Also, how could Kaliningrad not be part of the Transcontinental bonus - look at the bottom right corner! The "cities" in Italy only border Italy, that's clear by their shape. Andora and Gibralter are larger territories than just cities, so they appear as very small countries, but it's the same premise.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby hulmey on Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:59 pm

ZeakCytho wrote:
Nikolai wrote:Okay, from previous Foundry experience I know this is going to come off as me being a jerk, so I want to be clear that I've been avoiding the Foundry for a while, and I know I'm coming in late to this thread, and haven't really contributed enough to "earn" an opinion... but I think one productive purpose of the "Beta" status is to incur comments like this one, from fresh users who haven't been involved with the map from the beginning, so don't take this personally.

I think this map, in terms of graphics, looks... hideous. Following the overseas connections is hard on the eyes, requiring actual concentration to determine what connects where - something that needs to be very intuitive. The color and texturing is very flat and boring, resulting in a distinctly childish look. Beyond looks, a name key so extensive is indicative of a map that is attempting to do too much in too little space. The continent values do not seem to have taken choke numbers into account with any regularity, and seem decidedly unbalanced. It's not clear whether Kaliningrad is part of "transcontinental" or not. And while the cities in Italy are an interesting idea, it leaves me extremely confused with regards to how Andorra and Gibraltar are supposed to work.

This map still needs a lot of work, if it's a doable idea at all within the established size constraints. My inclination is to say that it won't work because the premise is an accurate map of Europe, and today's European map wasn't made by people looking for a balanced game... it was made by politicians. Turning it into a playable map is going to take more effort, and making it look decent will take even more.


I'm going to have to disagree with pretty much everything you said. The sea connections were hard to read, but after the fix, they're much better. The coloring and texturing are personal preference, but I like them. I don't see why using the ISO codes is bad - the abbreviations are for gameplay, the key is for those interesting in knowing what places are what. I don't have a problem with the bonus values, though perhaps some of them are not as great as they could be - do you have a specific problem? Also, how could Kaliningrad not be part of the Transcontinental bonus - look at the bottom right corner! The "cities" in Italy only border Italy, that's clear by their shape. Andora and Gibralter are larger territories than just cities, so they appear as very small countries, but it's the same premise.


that incorrect! having been to both fine places i can guarantee you that they are alot smaller than most cities!
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby ZeakCytho on Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:09 pm

hulmey wrote:
ZeakCytho wrote:
Nikolai wrote:Okay, from previous Foundry experience I know this is going to come off as me being a jerk, so I want to be clear that I've been avoiding the Foundry for a while, and I know I'm coming in late to this thread, and haven't really contributed enough to "earn" an opinion... but I think one productive purpose of the "Beta" status is to incur comments like this one, from fresh users who haven't been involved with the map from the beginning, so don't take this personally.

I think this map, in terms of graphics, looks... hideous. Following the overseas connections is hard on the eyes, requiring actual concentration to determine what connects where - something that needs to be very intuitive. The color and texturing is very flat and boring, resulting in a distinctly childish look. Beyond looks, a name key so extensive is indicative of a map that is attempting to do too much in too little space. The continent values do not seem to have taken choke numbers into account with any regularity, and seem decidedly unbalanced. It's not clear whether Kaliningrad is part of "transcontinental" or not. And while the cities in Italy are an interesting idea, it leaves me extremely confused with regards to how Andorra and Gibraltar are supposed to work.

This map still needs a lot of work, if it's a doable idea at all within the established size constraints. My inclination is to say that it won't work because the premise is an accurate map of Europe, and today's European map wasn't made by people looking for a balanced game... it was made by politicians. Turning it into a playable map is going to take more effort, and making it look decent will take even more.


I'm going to have to disagree with pretty much everything you said. The sea connections were hard to read, but after the fix, they're much better. The coloring and texturing are personal preference, but I like them. I don't see why using the ISO codes is bad - the abbreviations are for gameplay, the key is for those interesting in knowing what places are what. I don't have a problem with the bonus values, though perhaps some of them are not as great as they could be - do you have a specific problem? Also, how could Kaliningrad not be part of the Transcontinental bonus - look at the bottom right corner! The "cities" in Italy only border Italy, that's clear by their shape. Andorra and Gibralter are larger territories than just cities, so they appear as very small countries, but it's the same premise.


that incorrect! having been to both fine places i can guarantee you that they are alot smaller than most cities!


Andorra is 181 sq. miles. I was wrong about Gibralter, it's only 2.6 sq. miles. San Marino is 23.5 sq. miles, and the Vatican is 0.17 sq. miles.

Perhaps, then, Gibralter should be made smaller and San Marino slightly larger. Andorra is fine as is.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:19 pm

Nikolai, thanks for taking the time to post your feedback.

The aesthetics of the map are very subjective. If I was to start the process again now, I am convinced that the map would end up looking very different... I have definitely learnt a lot about photoshop over the past 11 months!

As far as your comments about gameplay, it is obvious that you haven't played on the map (and a quick game finder search confirms it). The key is not essential for gameplay, as the abbreviations are clear in the drop-down lists (but then you wouldn't know that if you hadn't played it).. .Some of the bonus values could possibly be tweaked a little, but on the whole I think the balance is about right - but I remain open to any convincing arguments to the contrary...

The size of some countries (San Marino and Vatican City are in fact countries) has been distorted to make them visible... in addition to those already mentioned, Liechtenstein is also super-sized on the map! These (and a couple of other visual tweaks) were made to make the map playable.
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby samuelc812 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:47 pm

I think it is fine as it is MrBenn i played and won my first game on it, so maybe i am a bit bias 8-)
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Re: Europa [Quenched]

Postby Nikolai on Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:06 pm

Ah, I see where it says that kgd is part of transcontinental.

Lesse. Zeak: You're free to disagree, I won't get my feelings hurt. I only offer my opinions as opinions, not the judgement of God Almighty. :lol: The sea connections... well, this is why I was commenting as a person who hasn't been involved. I don't know about any fix. All I know is that I have to work to see what connects where, and I think it should be more intuitive. (This is probably exacerbated by the fact that the dotted lines aren't too different from the textures in the ocean, at a glance.) The look... yes, it's subjective. But I think it looks remarkably flat and boring.

Values: well... I think the only way I can explain my dislikes here is to give you a fast analysis (as a no cards/flat rate sequential player who tends to think in terms of choke points.)

Nordic region: 4 borders, potentially easy to reduce to three (By combining two borders into one by advancing one spot into a choke). Controls 3 other continents (in that simply moving the choke up 1 country will deny the continent without spreading the defense.) Excellent expansion operations. Valued 4. Ratio (value:borders, value:borders after reductions using chokes - ratios above 1 are better) 1:1, 4:3 ****** (Stars represent my estimate of tactical value given controls, expansion options, and number of countries - scale 1-6 [where 6 is I would always try for this in every game if I had the slightest chance and 1 is I would not ever try to start building here unless I was wiped out every other spot on the board and I would still try to mass and move].)
British Isles: 2 borders. Cannot be reduced. Few countries. At least one spectacular expansion option, one good option. Controls 1. Valued 3. Ratio 3:2 *****
Benelux: 3 borders. Cannot possibly be reduced, no expansion options. Controls none. Valued 2. Ratio 2:3 *
Baltics: 3 borders. Cannot be reduced, mediocre expansion option. Controls 1. Valued 2. Ratio 2:3 **
Hellenics: 3 borders. Cannot be reduced, v. poor expansion options. Controls 1. Valued 2. Ratio 2:3 *
Italic states: 3 borders, cannot reduce. Some expansion options. Controls 1. Valued 3. Ratio 1:1 ***
Transcontinental: 3 borders, cannot reduce. Excellent expansion options. Controls none. Valued 4 (assuming the motherland bonus doesn't stack with this continent). Ratio 4:3 *****
Western Europe: 4 borders. Can be reduced to 3. Excellent expansion options. Controls 2. Valued 5. Ratio 5:4, 5:3 ****
Central Europe: 2 borders, cannot reduce. Expansion options not good. Controls none. Valued 3. Ratio 3:2 **
Eastern Europe: 5 borders, cannot reduce. SPECTACULAR, UNBELIEVABLY GOOD expansion options. Controls 3 - four with one border advanced 2 instead of 1. Valued 6. Ratio 6:5 ******
Balkan States: 5 borders, can reduce to 4 by combining 3 borders into 2 chokes. Expansion options... not good. Controls 1 - 3 after combination of chokes. Valued 5. Ratio 1:1, 5:4 ***
Med Islands: 4 or 5 borders, cannot reduce. Expansion options very poor. Controls 2-3 by existing. Valued 3. Ratio 3:4/3:5 **

If I multiply each continent's best possible ratio by its tactical rating and simplify, I arrive at the following values:
Nordic Region: 8
British Isles: 7 1/2
Benelux: 2/3
Baltics: 1 1/3
Hellenics: 2/3
Italic States: 3
Transcontinental: 6 2/3
Western Europe: 6 2/3
Central Europe: 3
Eastern Europe: 7 1/5
Balkan States: 3 3/4
Med Islands: 1 1/2

It's not a perfect method, but it's decent. (Note however that it only works for geographic maps... any kind of bombardment/floating bonus/what-have-you is really hard to reconcile here.) With a distribution range of 7 1/3, there is kind of a wild disparity here. To offer a comparison, on the classical map the distribution range is only 3 1/6, and that's with several recognized frontrunners:

Africa: 1:1**** = 4
Asia: 7:4 ** = 3 1/2
Australia: 2:1 **** = 8
Europe: 5:4 *** = 3 3/4
South America: 1:1 ***** = 5
North America: 5:3 **** = 6 2/3
(Oh, and notice there are no ****** or *. No country should be so good tactically that it's worth trying for every time you play the map, or so damnably bad that you would try to get away from it even if it was really your only option, and classic does a good job with that. And remember the ratings are just controls, expansion options, and size, from a tactical perspective.)

On a perfectly balanced map like Chinese Checkers or 8 Thoughts, the distribution range is 0. On another map I consider fairly balanced, King of the Mountains, the distribution range is 4, and that one also has clear leaders in desirability.

Hopefully that should make things somewhat clear as to my position on continent values, even though it's long. Let me know if anything needs clarification.

MrBenn: Yes, it's aesthetic subjectivity... like I said, just my opinion, but it looks flat and boring. I recognize that the key isn't necessary for gameplay... but it's hard for me to think in terms of abbreviations. Again, just my opinion, but to do this right you need a good deal more space. As to values... see above. :D I know some of the countries are distorted from geographic reality, and I understand and accept that it was necessary... not really a big deal for me. My problem is more to do with game balance... and the tiny dot "countries" are hard to distinguish from the cities.
Last edited by Nikolai on Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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