The New World [Quenched]

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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby Esn on Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:29 pm

sully800 wrote:Yeah, the native territories are better than the European homelands (unless using unlimited fortifications in which case I think the European homelands are a bit better. I never play that setting though).

Heh, well that might explain that then. I always play on the "unlimited, flat rate, no fog" setting.

Native territories are easier to expand from but also more vulnerable to attack. I tend to play defensively, so I guess starting from the European countries is just more my style.
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:50 pm

I love this map, but I have one complaint: in many 8-player games, the player who starts out on Aztec homeland is killed by the Comanche army before he ever takes a turn. Can anything be done to make this a little more fair?
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby Wolffystyle on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:08 pm

sully800 wrote:Yeah, the native territories are better than the European homelands (unless using unlimited fortifications in which case I think the European homelands are a bit better. I never play that setting though). In either case, it is very close to balanced and the game is fun from either starting position. Of course it works best in 1v1 when each player has an equal amount of European and native lands.

Quite the opposite. I firmly believe that European Homelands are better in adjacent and chained settings and Indian homelands are better in unlimited reinforcement games. I believe, Sully, that you have decided it's better to allow oneself to fort Europe to landing port each turn, and thus European advantage would been realized in unlimited forts. However, you cannot and SHOULD not go very far in adjacent type reinforcement games. European homelands are ideal in this setting. You get a larger bonus without blocking yourself in.

This map is inherently unbalanced, but I will add that that is part of the gameplay. I can win on any drop, though, if I play to the maps flavor. In sequential games, the first player should win a greater percentage of games. I play this map freestyle. This is an AWESOME freestyle map.

Finally, the ideal drop debate is not necessarily between Europe v. Indian, no, the measurement of a good drop is to see how many homelands can be adjoined; how many are next to each other. A great drop, for example, is Dutch+Mapuche....combine those two and conquer Portugal before North America can make its way down to South America...

If this is turning into an Indian v European homeland debate...what's the phrase? "Everything in moderation". Ideally, you want a split. 2 Indian and 2 European or, in adjacent settings, 3 European and 1 Indian... in unlimited settings 1 Europe and 3 Indians will do, too.

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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby Wolffystyle on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:21 pm

drunkmonkey wrote:I love this map, but I have one complaint: in many 8-player games, the player who starts out on Aztec homeland is killed by the Comanche army before he ever takes a turn. Can anything be done to make this a little more fair?


The short answer is: Make the game foggy or play with Rational players.

The explanation of this event is that:

This can happen, yes. Should this happen often? No.

Player A starts on either Comanche or Aztec and gets 10 troops on his/her homeland. She assaults towards the other homeland, Aztec or Comanche (and must be aware that Player B has NOT started turn...this would rarely work in fog games).

Player A must combat a neutral 4, another neutral 4 and finally Player B's 3 on the homeland. This yields Player A with 25.524436993369515% chance of success.... Upon a fail, however, Player B has significantly greater odds to conquer player A... This move, therefore, is more often clearly advantageous for Player B.

No rational player should make this move unless he/she believes it will give him/her greater than 4x the odds to win the game (of course, you must factor the relative point value of the other players in the game, too...)

This could be a problem in Sunny Terminator games, too. But, again, player B better yield more than 4x the amount of points than player A would lose with a given attack....Player B must have 2x the total points that Player A has for this move to be anywhere near prudent.

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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:01 pm

Thanks for the advice; I'll be sure to use it. I never said it was a great strategy, but it sure does suck to be Player B when it happens. :oops:

Keep up the good work!
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby Agent 86 on Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:17 pm

This is the best map on CC =D> =D>

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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby SirSebstar on Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:37 pm

the http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c64/G ... UTRALS.png does not show the true amount of neutrals. when will this be fixed?
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby the.killing.44 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:19 pm

What is incorrect? Change the 5's to 6's and it's fine.
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New World, unbalanced?

Postby Aldaron on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:45 am

I started a game in the new world map with 4 other players. and a fellow player conquered one of my two homelands before I even started playing. So in a word, I lost before I even got the chance to play and the other player will probably win the game with this huge advange. So what I want to ask you is if this is normal in the map or if it should even happen.

PS: Sorry if this is not the correct forum to as this, I wasn't sure where to write it.
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Re: New World, unbalanced?

Postby natty dread on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:07 am

Well that doesn't usually happen, at least what I have played on the map... perhaps he just got lucky.
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Re: New World, unbalanced?

Postby The Bison King on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:50 am

I think under the right circumstances that can happen on any map. That does suck though. That's one of my favorite maps but I do hate it when I start with out one of the European homelands. That usually bums me out.
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Re: New World, unbalanced?

Postby the.killing.44 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:57 pm

Yeah, it's an unbalanced map, but it makes for a more interesting game.

natty, even coleman and gim have acknowledged its unevenness.
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Re: New World, unbalanced?

Postby natty dread on Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:40 pm

May be, but I don't think it's that bad... it plays well anyway.

Anyway perhaps it would be possible to code all the european countries as starting positions... that way at least 2-5 player games would be more balanced, since everyone would start with at least some european countries. This wouldn't affect 6-8 player games though.
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby ben79 on Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:05 am

why is CC released this map ?

1_ totally unfair map and unbalanced for any numbers of players on it
2_ if you start on the europe mainland you're screwed since you have to kill 6's to take a region ( spoil)
3_ if you start in america you have only 1's to kill

just wondering why this map is out of beta ?
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Re: New World, unbalanced?

Postby MrBenn on Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:51 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:Yeah, it's an unbalanced map, but it makes for a more interesting game.

natty, even coleman and gim have acknowledged its unevenness.
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Re: New World, unbalanced?

Postby ben79 on Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:26 pm

MrBenn wrote:
the.killing.44 wrote:Yeah, it's an unbalanced map, but it makes for a more interesting game.

natty, even coleman and gim have acknowledged its unevenness.


well from my point of view it's an unfair map, and today was my last game on it ( i already have problems to win a 8 vs 2, so imagine with an unfair drop like new world gives everytime you play it)
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby shaneback on Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:16 pm

ben79 wrote:why is CC released this map ?

1_ totally unfair map and unbalanced for any numbers of players on it
2_ if you start on the europe mainland you're screwed since you have to kill 6's to take a region ( spoil)
3_ if you start in america you have only 1's to kill

just wondering why this map is out of beta ?


If you are playing with spoils it is best to start with a European mainland because you can bombard for cards like in feudal. Sometimes you won't get a card on your 1st or 2nd turn, but by your 3rd you will be able to get one on every turn.
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby lunatic96 on Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:32 am

Very rarely you'll have trouble taking the landing point with a 10v3.
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby soldierboy on Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:42 am

I have no problems with it! It is my favorite map. You just need to learn how to play the map in every situation. I have won games and I had all the european countries
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby OnYourShore on Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:06 am

I fell in love with this map the first time I played it. I just wish there was also a full world map based on New World. I play this map a lot. What's interesting is how quickly everything can change in a game. That just makes it more challenging and a testing of your skill level. Don't blame the map.
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby rousseau72 on Tue May 31, 2011 11:31 am

I have a few questions on game play on this map.

1) Do you only capture the new world to win the game? In other words, I assume that the Old world doesnt matter for victory conditions.

2) If you do need to take over the Old World too - then how would Indians every conquer the whole map?

3) For game play, it seems that the Europeans have a fairly large advantage. +3 for landing zone, ability to bombard, attack by sea and a much more compact footprint. Did you really find Indians winning as often?
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby SirSebstar on Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:01 am

rousseau72 wrote:I have a few questions on game play on this map.

1) Do you only capture the new world to win the game? In other words, I assume that the Old world doesnt matter for victory conditions.

2) If you do need to take over the Old World too - then how would Indians every conquer the whole map?

3) For game play, it seems that the Europeans have a fairly large advantage. +3 for landing zone, ability to bombard, attack by sea and a much more compact footprint. Did you really find Indians winning as often?


ad 1) the map has NO victory condition. SO you need to take it all away from your opponants before you win.

ad 2) see one

ad 3) Europeans HAVE a slight advantage over indians, depending on the setting. with adjecent the indians have the advantage.. With escalating 8 player the europeans have the advantage because of bombarding and decent bonussess.
Indians win ofter though. You can after all cross over into the homelands on europa..
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby Coleman on Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:01 am

rousseau72 wrote:3) For game play, it seems that the Europeans have a fairly large advantage. +3 for landing zone, ability to bombard, attack by sea and a much more compact footprint. Did you really find Indians winning as often?


I wouldn't recommend wasting the time viewing all the games and determining where everyone started and who won unless you really have lots of free time and don't believe me but the natives actually win slightly more often. Very slightly, like 1-2% the last time I ran through everything. I don't plan to again.

If you run each start position individually things get a bit more interesting but there isn't enough data for me to trust it because of all the different game type options. Regardless when I ran through things it seemed to me that Mapuche may be too good, which is historically amusing as the Mapuche were able to fight off the Spanish for over 300 years and even though diplomatically defeated the people persisted on their own terms even to this day. Not bad for people most of the CC players have never heard of and ask questions about when they first play but I've gone way off topic, if you have time look the Mapuche up, they are total bad asses.

Anyway, the Mapuche imbalance, if I bother to prove it is real and not just something I perceive, could be fixed by somehow blocking Mapuche 9 from Southern Atlantic Port, with a mountain graphic or something but I don't really want to as it would go against my original design goals. Design Goal 3 actually.

I'm not sure I ever really spelled those out publicly, so I think I will now, because this is a forum and I'm bored.

Original Design Goals
    1. 9 starting positions to create the feeling that each game is different and allow for the hush hush increase to 8 players if CC does it (spoiler alert, they did). Even in an 8 player game there are 9 possibilities for where the neutral will be which does change the flow of gameplay.

    2. Two different 'races' for a very unique conquest feel. Natives and Europeans.

    3. To allow for very interesting Fog/Assassin games and to ensure that no starting position would be completely doomed against any particular target. Thus why the map is so open with the 2 ports. Every start position usually has an acceptable route to any other start position. 10 spaces is the worst if I remember right and that is between Aztec/Dutch. In fact that one is so bad I think we failed design goal 3 but it doesn't seem that bad in game.

    4. To come up with a bonus system that encourages a wide variety of team game strategies. A player with a Comanche start could easily give a +1 bonus from its land to a team mate that started with Spain for example. In fact deciding how to distribute most of the native land makes or breaks many team games, which again is historically amusing to me. I also love watching team games where it ends up being all Natives vs all Europeans although they are a bit hard to find.
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby Geger on Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:34 am

love this map.

The worst drop in 1vs1 game, in my opinion, is 4 European Homeland (... and start 2nd :mrgreen: )

Is it possible to add in xml (or whatever), that in an 1vs1 game both players have at least 1 European Homeland and 1 Native Homeland as starting position??
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Re: The New World [Quenched]

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:42 am

No, it's not possible.
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Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (12) Map Contribution (12) General Contribution (7)

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