The Citadel [Quenched]

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Postby edbeard on Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:04 pm

My problem with the map at the moment is that none of the bonus areas stick out. Perhaps consider colouring the buildings to help players further distinguish between bonus areas without having to read.


I'm not quite sure how you can show connections between areas without them, but I'd say the red lines are a bit of an eyesore. They jump out too much for my liking. You need them to be different than your regular paths showing the landscape of the area, but I just don't know how to make them clear without sticking out. Maybe you can think of something.


I don't like how those connections move directly into your continent names. It just doesn't look right and might confuse some people.


A further reason for colours distinguishing continents is that the areas in the corners could belong to either avenue. Obviously the lower left could only be in Jenkins, but the upper right could be part of Lee or Remembrance.


What are the names of the checkered 'hall' areas in each Battalion? Doesn't seem to be space for labels but maybe you can mention this in the legend?


Ok I think I figured it out. The checkered areas are battalions and these can only be attacked by the corners eg: Band, Gold, Charlie, Tango etc...


The problem with having it the way you have it is that army numbers are going to cover up those flags so no one will see them. There'll be no way to know what is a company and what is a battalion. Furthermore, at the moment you can't tell which is which because you haven't labeled them specifically.


Maybe you should consider using different shaped army circles for the battalions and a different shape for the companies. Diamond and Square. Or, perhaps something more significant to your experience at the citadel. Just remember that shapes can be more important than colour because of colourblind players.
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Postby TaCktiX on Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:28 pm

Thanks for the laundry list of comments. Let's do this one by one:
edbeard wrote:My problem with the map at the moment is that none of the bonus areas stick out. Perhaps consider colouring the buildings to help players further distinguish between bonus areas without having to read.


I can do that very easily the way I structured the map. Gogo Photoshop layer effects!

edbeard wrote:I'm not quite sure how you can show connections between areas without them, but I'd say the red lines are a bit of an eyesore. They jump out too much for my liking. You need them to be different than your regular paths showing the landscape of the area, but I just don't know how to make them clear without sticking out. Maybe you can think of something.


The thing about the landscape is it near-directly models the physical campus (look up 171 Moultrie St., Charleston, SC 29409 on Google Maps and put up satellite, I dare you). I think the buildings connecting is apparent enough for territories. The major worries I had when I drew those red lines were "how will people know just how big the parade deck is" and "how will people see the doubled attack lines of the battalions?" I'll see if I can mix up a more muted solution that doesn't mess with the landscape much (black dotted lines perhaps?)


edbeard wrote:I don't like how those connections move directly into your continent names. It just doesn't look right and might confuse some people.


I wanted lines to be straight where possible, perhaps I can have dotted lines connect off-center and then hit the Deck. But then how would I communicate cases like School of Business and Duckett Hall, where they're hit by the Parade Deck but don't hit each other?


edbeard wrote:A further reason for colours distinguishing continents is that the areas in the corners could belong to either avenue. Obviously the lower left could only be in Jenkins, but the upper right could be part of Lee or Remembrance.


I guess my experience with the campus interfered here. Capers Hall clearly faces Lee Avenue at ground level. Not so much from above. I'll fix with the previous continent distinguisher of layer effects.

edbeard wrote:What are the names of the checkered 'hall' areas in each Battalion? Doesn't seem to be space for labels but maybe you can mention this in the legend?


Those, my friend, are The Quads. The Large size will not have the problem the Small one does, which is putting text on the Quads. 600 width is just too small to stick those 5 army circles and text. I think I'll mix around the bonus legend so that the Battalion flag is behind the word Battalion and the Company flag is behind the word Companies.

edbeard wrote:The problem with having it the way you have it is that army numbers are going to cover up those flags so no one will see them. There'll be no way to know what is a company and what is a battalion. Furthermore, at the moment you can't tell which is which because you haven't labeled them specifically.

Maybe you should consider using different shaped army circles for the battalions and a different shape for the companies. Diamond and Square. Or, perhaps something more significant to your experience at the citadel. Just remember that shapes can be more important than colour because of colourblind players.


I think I'll edit the army circles a bit for those to be like the flag that's presently underneath. Company Guidon flags are a baby blue with writing, Battalion colors are a bold red with writing. I.E., exactly what you can see underneath the army circles. I'll take the shape idea into consideration for certain, though.
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Postby CatfishJohnson on Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:31 pm

Problem solving ftw
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Postby Unit_2 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:38 pm

I like this :D But i hate the text being used, its really hard to read, try changeing it a bit so its readable, Remember, it doesn't have to be fancy, just readable and playable ;)
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good map

Postby shadowsteel9 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:17 am

i would definitely play this map
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Postby CatfishJohnson on Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:46 am

unit is that a michigan flag ?
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Postby Unit_2 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:36 pm

No Pennsylvania, but if you want the Michigan one you can get it at http://www.3dflags.com
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Postby TaCktiX on Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:46 pm

Version 2

Updates:
- Made the Attack lines less obtrusive and less cut-off.
- Changed text colors to correspond to continents.
- Made a few minor resizing changes.
- Edited the heavy use of script font to sans serif readability.
- Tried to Clarify the Battalion/Company difference.

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Postby CatfishJohnson on Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:52 pm

very nice tacktix i like i
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Postby TaCktiX on Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:00 pm

Version 2.1

Updates:
- The attack lines were TOO unobtrusive.

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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+3) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby TaCktiX on Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:31 pm

...so the map is perfect now? Not to troll my own thread, but I'd like to move this map forward.
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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+2) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby wcaclimbing on Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:23 pm

Have you tried putting a bit of color onto each country?
cause right now, all of the countries are solid grey.
I think a bit of color, or at least some light texture, might help it look better.
Nothing major, just something to put in place to get rid of the solid grey.

EDIT: and maybe some grass-like texture to put over the green in the middle. this map just has a few too many solid color areas for me to like visually.

Like I said before, don't do anything too extreme. Keep it simple, but add a bit of detail. Give the solid areas a bit of life and this will look a lot better.
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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+2) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby TaCktiX on Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:26 pm

wcaclimbing wrote:Have you tried putting a bit of color onto each country?
cause right now, all of the countries are solid grey.
I think a bit of color, or at least some light texture, might help it look better.
Nothing major, just something to put in place to get rid of the solid grey.


All the gray territories are buildings, and that's exactly what their roofs look like. Due to the fact that I am taking my college campus and turning it into a map, I'd like to keep that as close to "the real thing" as possible. I think putting some glow around the territory names is sufficient for adding some sprucing.

wcaclimbing wrote:EDIT: and maybe some grass-like texture to put over the green in the middle. this map just has a few too many solid color areas for me to like visually.

Like I said before, don't do anything too extreme. Keep it simple, but add a bit of detail. Give the solid areas a bit of life and this will look a lot better.


I do want to add some grass texture. When I first started the map my artistic drive was rather low. Then I figured out an easy way to make Shadows for the buildings (notice how the sun is coming from the right side of campus?). Adding in some grassiness, and maybe even an asphalt/sidewalk texture is definitely within my range of do-ability, ESPECIALLY because of the solid color nature of major portions of the map. I'll add that.

Current Discussion Points:
- Should the Parade Deck be split up, or is its heavy connections an attraction for the map?
- Are the Attack Routes nice and apparent?
- Are the bonus colors too bright for the map and need to be toned down a little?
- Are bonus numbers good right now?
- Is the hefty amount of interconnection, especially in the Battalion area, a good thing for the map?
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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+2) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby wcaclimbing on Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:00 pm

TaCktiX wrote:Current Discussion Points:
- Should the Parade Deck be split up, or is its heavy connections an attraction for the map? I think maybe splitting it into East Parade Deck and West Parade Deck would work better. Having the big center space is nice, but i think it is a bit too connected. splitting it into East and West might help some.
- Are the Attack Routes nice and apparent?
1.I don't understand how to get to and from the Locker Room. The dotted lines cross over it, but don't really show being able to attack there.
2. Maybe you could extend the dots into the parade deck and put something at the end of them. right now they just sort of go...go...go... stop. with nothing at the end, except for a big space of green. you might be able to make that connection a bit more obvious.
3. other than those two things, i think the connections will be good.

- Are the bonus colors too bright for the map and need to be toned down a little? NO. leave the colors exactly as they are. I like them a lot like this, and I doubt they could be improved.
- Are bonus numbers good right now?

1. I think 1st and 3rd should decrease to 4 bonus each. They are too easy to hold for that big of bonuses.
2. Jenkins, remembrance, and Lee should have bigger bonuses. they all have a lot of territories, they should be worth a bit more.

- Is the hefty amount of interconnection, especially in the Battalion area, a good thing for the map? I think it will work. It will make for some very interesting strategy, because everything can attack so many other places. It will be a fun place to play


This map is really interesting. The attack routes are a bit confusing at first, but after a minute or two they are easy to understand.
Two more things:

The text where it lists the bonuses is tiny. It will be difficult for some people to read. I suggest making it bigger.

I dont understand the part about Batillions and the bombardments. You need to give a clearer explanation of what attacks what, and what each symbol means. the explanation on the map is confusing me :roll: .
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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+2) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby edbeard on Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:10 pm

I think the coloured glows on the territory labels are too large. tone down the size a notch or two.


I agree about the legend. Perhaps look into adding a section on the top or bottom of the map since you have a bit of extra space in height.


clarity is still a big issue on this map. It can be difficult to know what attacks what especially where territory labels hide borders. this happens mostly on the left and right of the map.

I like the Parade Deck being one territory. It'll be a significant territory.
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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+2) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby TaCktiX on Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:08 pm

Version 3
Image

I haven't added the grass textures yet, but every single border is now explicit. I personally don't like the Parade Deck attack routes, but I decided to overdo it rather than underdo it. Erasing is rather fast.

Updated:
- All borders have attack lines
- Adjusted bonuses for those mentioned
- Tried to clear up the Battalion/Company difference and the Tower's bombardment range
- Added Support Battalion's bonus color (forgot it in v2 and v2.1)
- Muted the outer glow

To Do:
- Grass, Asphalt, Sidewalk textures

Discussion Points:
- Are the unique elements finally clear?
- Is the Parade Deck now overcluttered, and I can cut back on how long the lines are? Or are they fine?
- Are the bonuses now more in line with what one would expect?
- Any other lingering concerns with graphics?
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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+2) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby bryguy on Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:45 pm

TaCktiX wrote:Version 3
Image

I haven't added the grass textures yet, but every single border is now explicit. I personally don't like the Parade Deck attack routes, but I decided to overdo it rather than underdo it. Erasing is rather fast.

Updated:
- All borders have attack lines
- Adjusted bonuses for those mentioned
- Tried to clear up the Battalion/Company difference and the Tower's bombardment range
- Added Support Battalion's bonus color (forgot it in v2 and v2.1)
- Muted the outer glow

To Do:
- Grass, Asphalt, Sidewalk textures

Discussion Points:
- Are the unique elements finally clear? no
- Is the Parade Deck now overcluttered, and I can cut back on how long the lines are? Or are they fine? overcluttered
- Are the bonuses now more in line with what one would expect? no
- Any other lingering concerns with graphics? i cant read a thing on it
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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+2) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:36 pm

bryguy wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:Discussion Points:
- Are the unique elements finally clear? no
- Is the Parade Deck now overcluttered, and I can cut back on how long the lines are? Or are they fine? overcluttered
- Are the bonuses now more in line with what one would expect? no
- Any other lingering concerns with graphics? i cant read a thing on it


Come on, the words aren't that bad. Granted, they could be cleared up a bit, but I can read everything on it :?
To Tacktix: With army numbers over top of them, the flags under the army circles may be hard to see.
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Re: The Citadel Map V3 (Pg1+3) Explicit Material

Postby TaCktiX on Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:50 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
bryguy wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:Discussion Points:
- Are the unique elements finally clear? no
- Is the Parade Deck now overcluttered, and I can cut back on how long the lines are? Or are they fine? overcluttered
- Are the bonuses now more in line with what one would expect? no
- Any other lingering concerns with graphics? i cant read a thing on it


Come on, the words aren't that bad. Granted, they could be cleared up a bit, but I can read everything on it :?
To Tacktix: With army numbers over top of them, the flags under the army circles may be hard to see.


It's why I set the flags on the background they're on too. The Large map won't have this clarification problem because I'll have the space for the text to say Quad. As it is, Small doesn't have that space, so I have to go off of context cues.

As for the Deck, I'll shorten up the attack lines a little bit, more in keeping with what I want.

And please, if you're going to comment, don't give unconstructive one-liners.
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Re: The Citadel Map V3 (Pg1+3) Explicit Material

Postby wcaclimbing on Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:39 pm

i take back my earlier comment. Having Parade deck as one big territory is better than splitting it up.

In the:
Tower can bombard anything adjacent to the parade deck.

section in the map, can you move the "parade deck" part of that text to the right some? right now it kinda merges with the text to the left of it, so the first time I read it as
"batillions can only be attacked by Companies Parade deck" and it was
"whats a companies parade deck?.... oh"

Just move it to the right a bit so it isn't so close to the batillions/companies text.

Good job with the new dotted borders. everything is a lot clearer now.
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Re: The Citadel Map V3 (Pg1+3) Explicit Material

Postby Ditocoaf on Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:10 pm

WAaaay too many dotted borders. I think it would be clearer if you made everything simpler. Looking at the map, I have some ideas, but I can't really describe them, so all I'll say is to unclutter it a bit. Some borders should be made clear without dotted lines weaving around everywhere.
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Re: The Citadel Map V3 (Pg1+3) Explicit Material

Postby CatfishJohnson on Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:25 pm

the dotted make it look easier beilive it or not, it seperates and stops confusion fo sho, looking good tacktix btw
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:14 pm

Version 4

Updates:
- Textured grass, asphalt, and sidewalk
- Edited the text effects on the bonuses to make them clearer with the new textures
- Trimmed back the attack lines to the Parade Deck

Image

To Do:
- Add a connection from Duckett Hall to Byrd Hall. Having a territory in a continent not connect to any other territories in the continent is made of fail.
- Cut 2nd Battalion down to +6 bonus. +7 just isn't deserved.

Discussion Points:
- Good cutback on the attack lines?
- Any adjustments need to be made to the textures? Do they look good?
- Does the map suffer from any crippling illegibility due to the textures?
- Any non-texture legibility issues?
- Did I separate the Company/Battalion text from the Tower/Parade Deck text well enough?
- Is the Company/Battalion difference FINALLY clear?
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby shadowsteel9 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:17 pm

i like the texture
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby CatfishJohnson on Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:28 pm

everything looks good, but the explanation can be lighter color i think
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