The Citadel [Quenched]

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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+2) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby TaCktiX on Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:08 pm

Version 3
Image

I haven't added the grass textures yet, but every single border is now explicit. I personally don't like the Parade Deck attack routes, but I decided to overdo it rather than underdo it. Erasing is rather fast.

Updated:
- All borders have attack lines
- Adjusted bonuses for those mentioned
- Tried to clear up the Battalion/Company difference and the Tower's bombardment range
- Added Support Battalion's bonus color (forgot it in v2 and v2.1)
- Muted the outer glow

To Do:
- Grass, Asphalt, Sidewalk textures

Discussion Points:
- Are the unique elements finally clear?
- Is the Parade Deck now overcluttered, and I can cut back on how long the lines are? Or are they fine?
- Are the bonuses now more in line with what one would expect?
- Any other lingering concerns with graphics?
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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+2) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby bryguy on Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:45 pm

TaCktiX wrote:Version 3
Image

I haven't added the grass textures yet, but every single border is now explicit. I personally don't like the Parade Deck attack routes, but I decided to overdo it rather than underdo it. Erasing is rather fast.

Updated:
- All borders have attack lines
- Adjusted bonuses for those mentioned
- Tried to clear up the Battalion/Company difference and the Tower's bombardment range
- Added Support Battalion's bonus color (forgot it in v2 and v2.1)
- Muted the outer glow

To Do:
- Grass, Asphalt, Sidewalk textures

Discussion Points:
- Are the unique elements finally clear? no
- Is the Parade Deck now overcluttered, and I can cut back on how long the lines are? Or are they fine? overcluttered
- Are the bonuses now more in line with what one would expect? no
- Any other lingering concerns with graphics? i cant read a thing on it
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Re: The Citadel Map V2.1 (Pg1+2) Now with Fresh Readability

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:36 pm

bryguy wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:Discussion Points:
- Are the unique elements finally clear? no
- Is the Parade Deck now overcluttered, and I can cut back on how long the lines are? Or are they fine? overcluttered
- Are the bonuses now more in line with what one would expect? no
- Any other lingering concerns with graphics? i cant read a thing on it


Come on, the words aren't that bad. Granted, they could be cleared up a bit, but I can read everything on it :?
To Tacktix: With army numbers over top of them, the flags under the army circles may be hard to see.
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Re: The Citadel Map V3 (Pg1+3) Explicit Material

Postby TaCktiX on Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:50 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
bryguy wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:Discussion Points:
- Are the unique elements finally clear? no
- Is the Parade Deck now overcluttered, and I can cut back on how long the lines are? Or are they fine? overcluttered
- Are the bonuses now more in line with what one would expect? no
- Any other lingering concerns with graphics? i cant read a thing on it


Come on, the words aren't that bad. Granted, they could be cleared up a bit, but I can read everything on it :?
To Tacktix: With army numbers over top of them, the flags under the army circles may be hard to see.


It's why I set the flags on the background they're on too. The Large map won't have this clarification problem because I'll have the space for the text to say Quad. As it is, Small doesn't have that space, so I have to go off of context cues.

As for the Deck, I'll shorten up the attack lines a little bit, more in keeping with what I want.

And please, if you're going to comment, don't give unconstructive one-liners.
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Re: The Citadel Map V3 (Pg1+3) Explicit Material

Postby wcaclimbing on Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:39 pm

i take back my earlier comment. Having Parade deck as one big territory is better than splitting it up.

In the:
Tower can bombard anything adjacent to the parade deck.

section in the map, can you move the "parade deck" part of that text to the right some? right now it kinda merges with the text to the left of it, so the first time I read it as
"batillions can only be attacked by Companies Parade deck" and it was
"whats a companies parade deck?.... oh"

Just move it to the right a bit so it isn't so close to the batillions/companies text.

Good job with the new dotted borders. everything is a lot clearer now.
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Re: The Citadel Map V3 (Pg1+3) Explicit Material

Postby Ditocoaf on Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:10 pm

WAaaay too many dotted borders. I think it would be clearer if you made everything simpler. Looking at the map, I have some ideas, but I can't really describe them, so all I'll say is to unclutter it a bit. Some borders should be made clear without dotted lines weaving around everywhere.
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Re: The Citadel Map V3 (Pg1+3) Explicit Material

Postby CatfishJohnson on Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:25 pm

the dotted make it look easier beilive it or not, it seperates and stops confusion fo sho, looking good tacktix btw
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:14 pm

Version 4

Updates:
- Textured grass, asphalt, and sidewalk
- Edited the text effects on the bonuses to make them clearer with the new textures
- Trimmed back the attack lines to the Parade Deck

Image

To Do:
- Add a connection from Duckett Hall to Byrd Hall. Having a territory in a continent not connect to any other territories in the continent is made of fail.
- Cut 2nd Battalion down to +6 bonus. +7 just isn't deserved.

Discussion Points:
- Good cutback on the attack lines?
- Any adjustments need to be made to the textures? Do they look good?
- Does the map suffer from any crippling illegibility due to the textures?
- Any non-texture legibility issues?
- Did I separate the Company/Battalion text from the Tower/Parade Deck text well enough?
- Is the Company/Battalion difference FINALLY clear?
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby shadowsteel9 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:17 pm

i like the texture
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby CatfishJohnson on Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:28 pm

everything looks good, but the explanation can be lighter color i think
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby gimil on Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:18 pm

[ADV. IDEA]
What do you know about map making, bitch?

natty_dread wrote:I was wrong


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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby CatfishJohnson on Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:30 pm

COngrats mi friend
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby Tieryn on Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:36 am

I'm having trouble with the hall names... Is it "Jenkins Hall" "thompson Hall" as I assume, or "Hall Thompson", "Hall Grimsley" "Hall LeTellier" as I first read them... make the font a little bit smaller, and put some space between the hall and the word below it... also perhaps dull the glow a little. My first feeling looking at this map is "WHOA COLOURS OW"... and that turns me off right away... I like the concept, but the naming of territs needs to be done better.

Same up at "Auditorium Mark Clark" :P or "School of Capers English"... heh :p

Keep up the good work tho.. I'd suggest having a different texture for grass/road.. it looks like the same at the moment, and looks awkward.

Edit: looking further... the smaller font down the bottom looks okay, I'd still experiment with different coloured fonts, rather than glowing everything... maybe a coloured font with a dark glow? and make the glow smaller, or more opacity or something? *Shrug* play, see :P

pps: perhaps make the dotted lines "inside" building different.. turn them into some sort of long, dark, hallway? This will unclutter the buildings a bit and make them look -perhaps- more realistic? Also distinguishes easily between intra-continent connections and inter-continent ones.
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:54 am

Tieryn wrote:I'm having trouble with the hall names... Is it "Jenkins Hall" "thompson Hall" as I assume, or "Hall Thompson", "Hall Grimsley" "Hall LeTellier" as I first read them... make the font a little bit smaller, and put some space between the hall and the word below it... also perhaps dull the glow a little. My first feeling looking at this map is "WHOA COLOURS OW"... and that turns me off right away... I like the concept, but the naming of territs needs to be done better.

Same up at "Auditorium Mark Clark" :P or "School of Capers English"... heh :p


I'll tone down the outer glow more. The reason why I'm sticking with it is because the text alone mixes with building outlines and Stroking it with another color is too stark for the look I want. Outer Glow is a good middle ground for me. I'll narrow up the text so it's not so squished (this is a problem the Large version will not have in any way, shape, or form), for certain.

Tieryn wrote:Keep up the good work tho.. I'd suggest having a different texture for grass/road.. it looks like the same at the moment, and looks awkward.


Looking at it, the grass and sidewalk textures are good. The road needs to go back to solid to act as a more effective barrier. I'll change this next version.

Tieryn wrote:Edit: looking further... the smaller font down the bottom looks okay, I'd still experiment with different coloured fonts, rather than glowing everything... maybe a coloured font with a dark glow? and make the glow smaller, or more opacity or something? *Shrug* play, see :P


With the additional text on bottom, I'll mess around with colors and find a good mix. The black+effect isn't really working especially with that texture there.

Tieryn wrote:pps: perhaps make the dotted lines "inside" building different.. turn them into some sort of long, dark, hallway? This will unclutter the buildings a bit and make them look -perhaps- more realistic? Also distinguishes easily between intra-continent connections and inter-continent ones.


I'm not changing the attack lines again. I got stuck with the 22px Army Circle limit and that makes borders that are there almost invisible behind all the text. With the continent glow it's apparent what goes out of continent and what's still in-continent (pun unintended, bladder-freaks), and the attack lines are simple to understand. Making a "hallway" look would disrupt the simplicity of "this is an attack line, this attacks this."

In general, I think it's a good thing I started with the Small version. So many problems with the pixel limit...being allowed to upscale to 800px will fix so many things.
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby CatfishJohnson on Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:10 am

why would it be hall anderson......where the hell is it called that heh
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby whitestazn88 on Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:45 pm

i like the textures and stuff, and i'm glad you shortened those dotted attack lines, they were a little too much. I think you should remove the names of the continents off the map though, and instead put them in the legend in a color coded manner.
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:55 pm

I'd like to keep the continent names on the map. As it is I'm pressed for space in the bonus area, and if I tried to move continent names there and color-code, it would look like a smooshy mess, and we don't want that.
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:00 pm

Version 5

Updates:
- Torched the asphalt texture, bringing it back to solid
- Lowered the glow effect around 90% of the map
- Added the Byrd-Duckett connection
- Made it so that the Tower, Kilo, and India don't look directly connected (attack line change)
- Edited 2nd Battalion Bonus down to the more proper 6
- Changed the Bonuses section to include the continent color
- Made Bonuses text bigger and more readable
- Moved Tango to make space for the bonuses
- Moved "Halls" around to make what territory is what more clear
- Changed the colors of Avenue of Remembrance and Lee Avenue so they are more readable with the lessened glow effect

Image

Things that are NOT changing, so don't ask:
- Attack line look (simple, easy to understand as is)
- The continent names being on the map instead of in a secluded section

Discussion Points:
- Aren't the bonuses nice and easy to understand now? Are the values good?
- Are territory names now clear?
- Good color changes to Avenue of Remembrance and Lee Avenue?
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Gameplay Discussion

Postby CatfishJohnson on Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:05 pm

im liking it broski
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Gameplay Discussion

Postby TaCktiX on Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:45 pm

The question is, does anyone else?
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby Unit_2 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:04 pm

That is really nice, but you might want to change the text from Italic to normul.
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby CatfishJohnson on Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:08 pm

and not just normal, normal with a U
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby cairnswk on Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:14 pm

TaCKtix, thanks for contacting me via PM. i've read through the thread and I have a few observations, and i am going to be blunt about your map. Please forgive, but i have to be for you to benefit.
As to why not a lot of people are commenting, I have the same problem, with commenting in general being quite slow at the moment....we've lost some controversial figureheads who don't comment so much anymore and i think this has caused some downturn. Plus the number of maps in progress now means so much more for people to comment on, and not every map made is going to be for everyone.

TaCktiX wrote:Version 5
Things that are NOT changing, so don't ask:

I would be very careful making statements like this with your first map. You obviously have some skills in graphics but don't be so arrogant as to think you won't have to change things because if a lot of commentors want the change, and you aren't prepared to make those changes it will hold your map up. Also it may give people the impression of "why should i comment because this guy is not going to take any notice of my requests". Keep a little humility about your replies, you need people to help progress your map, not push them away.

- Attack line look (simple, easy to understand as is)
- The continent names being on the map instead of in a secluded section



Discussion Points:
- Aren't the bonuses nice and easy to understand now? Are the values good?
- Are territory names now clear?
- Good color changes to Avenue of Remembrance and Lee Avenue?


For me, your version 5 hurts my eyes completely...there is so much going on on the map that i find it very difficult to take in and decipher upon initial viewing.

1. i find that while the texture of the grass is good, its too glaring and contrasting with everything else, and for me conflicts with attack lines. can you reduce the opacity to tone it down?

2. you have a lot of black everything - font, outlines, ashphalt, and everything has a glow. can you not use the colours on the buildings like in regular maps with continents to distinguish them

3. the checker pattern - everytime i see this map i expect Mel Brooks and Madelaine Kahn to break out in the Hitler Rap and wait on the "tables" serving Bratwurst, bread and beer. It really does remind me of a Bavarian outdoor Cafe, with Heidi in her short skirt serving tables and the Oompah Band boys playing in the corner.....in short it doesn't look like a "plan" of buildings with that pattern. best advice there....change it.

4. why have you got the blue flags in the background of the army shadows? you won't see them when there are numbers sitting over the top of them when gameplay is underway. you need to come up with something alternative to that....maybe keep the flags but place them outside the army circles, or move the army circles.

5. i appreciate what you've tried to do with the attack lines, with the white edging around the black dashes. because a lot of the map is light gray, this doesn't work well for me coz there are such a lot of other black lines separating terts...it is very confusing. Perhaps follow the example of CCU map and have the paths between buildings as attack/connection lines. Field House doesn't look too bad, but the rest with attack lines, grey buildings and grey side path areas...my nightmare! Sorry.

6. the title and bonus areas need severe work. not only can i hardly read it on that grass background, but it's also too small. look as some of already quenched maps and see that legend and titles need to be very distinguishable from the rest of the map. give the legend a defined area of its own with the flavour of the map.

I hope this helps. While it may feel like an attack on your work, it will help to better the map and design, and might create more interest for you. I'll return later to see what you've come up with. :)
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Re: The Citadel Map V4 (Pg1+3) Texturized

Postby TaCktiX on Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:46 pm

cairnswk wrote:TaCKtix, thanks for contacting me via PM. i've read through the thread and I have a few observations, and i am going to be blunt about your map. Please forgive, but i have to be for you to benefit.
As to why not a lot of people are commenting, I have the same problem, with commenting in general being quite slow at the moment....we've lost some controversial figureheads who don't comment so much anymore and i think this has caused some downturn. Plus the number of maps in progress now means so much more for people to comment on, and not every map made is going to be for everyone.

TaCktiX wrote:Version 5
Things that are NOT changing, so don't ask:

I would be very careful making statements like this with your first map. You obviously have some skills in graphics but don't be so arrogant as to think you won't have to change things because if a lot of commentors want the change, and you aren't prepared to make those changes it will hold your map up. Also it may give people the impression of "why should i comment because this guy is not going to take any notice of my requests". Keep a little humility about your replies, you need people to help progress your map, not push them away.


Yeah, I suppose I just got a little bugged out with all of the "change this, no change it back to that" feedback.

cairnswk wrote:
- Attack line look (simple, easy to understand as is)
- The continent names being on the map instead of in a secluded section



Discussion Points:
- Aren't the bonuses nice and easy to understand now? Are the values good?
- Are territory names now clear?
- Good color changes to Avenue of Remembrance and Lee Avenue?


For me, your version 5 hurts my eyes completely...there is so much going on on the map that i find it very difficult to take in and decipher upon initial viewing.

1. i find that while the texture of the grass is good, its too glaring and contrasting with everything else, and for me conflicts with attack lines. can you reduce the opacity to tone it down?


Opacity will be applied.

cairnswk wrote:2. you have a lot of black everything - font, outlines, ashphalt, and everything has a glow. can you not use the colours on the buildings like in regular maps with continents to distinguish them


I suppose I'll colorize the buildings. Shouldn't take me long, but I liked the idea that I was re-creating campus down to a T.

3. the checker pattern - everytime i see this map i expect Mel Brooks and Madelaine Kahn to break out in the Hitler Rap and wait on the "tables" serving Bratwurst, bread and beer. It really does remind me of a Bavarian outdoor Cafe, with Heidi in her short skirt serving tables and the Oompah Band boys playing in the corner.....in short it doesn't look like a "plan" of buildings with that pattern. best advice there....change it.


Those are the quadrangles at the center of each battalion. They really are that boldly red and white, but I'll see if I can wash out the color a little bit to make it not stand out so much. Removing the quads would cut the heart and soul of the map out, sadly.

4. why have you got the blue flags in the background of the army shadows? you won't see them when there are numbers sitting over the top of them when gameplay is underway. you need to come up with something alternative to that....maybe keep the flags but place them outside the army circles, or move the army circles.


I'll move the flags. Thank goodness I saved the flag picture. Putting them next to the company shouldn't be that hard to pull off, and I won't have to kill myself trying to clarify what a company and what a battalion is.

5. i appreciate what you've tried to do with the attack lines, with the white edging around the black dashes. because a lot of the map is light gray, this doesn't work well for me coz there are such a lot of other black lines separating terts...it is very confusing. Perhaps follow the example of CCU map and have the paths between buildings as attack/connection lines. Field House doesn't look too bad, but the rest with attack lines, grey buildings and grey side path areas...my nightmare! Sorry.

6. the title and bonus areas need severe work. not only can i hardly read it on that grass background, but it's also too small. look as some of already quenched maps and see that legend and titles need to be very distinguishable from the rest of the map. give the legend a defined area of its own with the flavour of the map.


Colorizing the continents and removing the pure sanctity of the Parade Deck (read: title and information will go on it now). I set out that little bonus box at the bottom (on actual campus the Mess Hall is located there) intending for it to be enough, but I suppose not. I'll mess around with where titles and stuff are and make it "bigger."

I hope this helps. While it may feel like an attack on your work, it will help to better the map and design, and might create more interest for you. I'll return later to see what you've come up with. :)


I WANT sharp criticism. This is the Foundry after all. If my maps don't go through a crucible of harsh criticism I won't feel like I've earned the Quench.
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby CatfishJohnson on Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:10 pm

So the question is how will 6 look like
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