The Citadel [Quenched]

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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby mibi on Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:21 am

TaCktiX wrote:
mibi wrote:
I WANT sharp criticism. This is the Foundry after all. If my maps don't go through a crucible of harsh criticism I won't feel like I've earned the Quench.


This map looks like someone pulled a beta version of CCU out of the garbage and proceeded to regurgitate botched photoshop tutorials all over it. Not only is this map and insult to the sighted community but the game play has been done before and done better, which completely removes any real reason for this map to exist, except for those among us who are military fetishists with low standards and I wouldn't even want those commendable souls to be condemned to a gaming experience so 3rd, 4th, and 5th rate as this reiterated graphical compost heap of bad taste.

My advice, take this map back to the drawing board, take the drawing board back to Ikea, and exchange it for one of those nifty couches so at least one of us will rest easy knowing something this reckless will never get into live play.


Yep, my map is now legitimate. Mibi thrashed the ever-living crap out of it. *gets back to work on Version 6*


lol, it's nothing personal of course. You have the right attitude though, and just might be capable of seeing this through. Good luck. :twisted:
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby benny profane on Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:13 am

sorry, but i don't see any significant difference between this and CCU.
what is the reason for this map?
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby TaCktiX on Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:56 am

Personal reasons: I think my college campus (not some fabricated pseudo-campus) is unique in many ways. I also have a ton of friends at this school, most of which think doing this map is one of the coolest things they've seen at this school. One thing they appreciate that I know most Foundry visitors will not is how close I am to the actual look of campus (bird's eye view, of course). If you see it on the map, that's virtually where it is in actuality, and that ring of authenticity CCU frankly lacks.

One thing I WISH I could do that map size constraints have kept me from is doing the entirety of campus to full justice. I had to cut it down to purely around the Deck so that it would fit within 600 pixels. With it cut down, it looks scarily like CCU if you're looking for similarities.

On that vein though, it's CCU on steroids in structure. Everything connects to everything else. I think the furthest degree of separation possible from one side of the map to the other is 6 territories (Avenue of Remembrance to 4th Battalion Quad). The Quad with only 6 territories connecting, most easily blockaded against it? Try 13 on the Parade Deck. Continents with one or two chokepoints? Not on this map. It's the sheer overdrive connections that I think will end up separating this map out from CCU and others, not the military college theme.

By the way, my To Do list for Version 6:
- Colorize continents
- Drop nearly all glow around the map
- Move company flags and army circles around to become clearer to understand
- Resize bonuses and unique features so they're readable without a magnifying glass
- Some other things I'm forgetting

Done already:
- Changed opacity of grass, asphalt, and sidewalks
- Moved the title of the map to the Parade Deck
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby benny profane on Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:47 am

your points are valid (except i don't agree that this is "CCU on steroids")...
but, in my opinion, the differences are insufficient to truly make this map stand apart.
sorry i can't be of more help.
good luck.
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby CatfishJohnson on Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:15 am

i think that it is, i mean its gameplay is alot different and it isnt genaric, like OMFG u took the parking lot, it adds realizom and personality into it which makes in, imo, worthy of play fo sho
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby TaCktiX on Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:39 am

Version 6

Updates: (and I know I'm forgetting some)
- Removed all glow on the map
- Recolored all territories their continent color
- Moved the title of the map to the Parade Deck
- Enlarged and moved Bonuses and unique features
- Moved Company flags to be immediately behind Company names
- Added text to Quads
- Changed all army circles to army squares
- Renamed President's Office to President
- Removed all continent names from the map (aside from Bonuses)
- Tidied up attack routes
- Altered Support Battalion bonus to 2
- Altered 4th Battalion bonus to 3
- Faded the background so it's not competing for readability
- Switched continent colors of Lee Avenue and the Avenue of Remembrance (Summerall Chapel's roof is red)

Image
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby CatfishJohnson on Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:06 pm

damn nice, looks purdy meow
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby mibi on Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:34 pm

You need to address the serious readability issues before you go any further.
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby TaCktiX on Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:36 pm

Yes, I need some help resolving that. I know I've got the map space to have it readable, but I need some good suggestions as to what I should use to buffer text. What you see there is a 50% opacity white box erased to form-fit with the letters, and that doesn't work in all cases. Any tips?
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby Kaplowitz on Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:31 am

I think you should get rid of the red and white checkered places. Maybe lose the realism for the readability, at least just to see how it looks.
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby naranie on Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:13 pm

TaCktiX wrote:Version 6

Image



That map is nice and cool! =D>
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby gimil on Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:50 am

TaCktiX wrote:Yes, I need some help resolving that. I know I've got the map space to have it readable, but I need some good suggestions as to what I should use to buffer text. What you see there is a 50% opacity white box erased to form-fit with the letters, and that doesn't work in all cases. Any tips?


Why not reduce the big green field in the middle
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:31 pm

gimil wrote:Why not reduce the big green field in the middle


The entire map is to-scale. The rest of the map keys off of the size of the "big green field in the middle" and I'd have to resize every other building (exacerbating the readability problem, not fixing it) if I messed with the Deck.

I'm going to release a couple beta Version 7's tomorrow, one eliminating the red and white on the quads entirely (not preferred, makes a big huge empty space), one putting them under heavy wash-out (like 33-50% opacity, compared with their 100% now). I'm also going to go whole-hog on the white opacity boxes instead of form-fitting them, which creates more problems than it solves. And maybe a few font size increases. I kept them all the same after the overhaul, and there's plenty of space to make them larger now.
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby RjBeals on Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:25 pm

TaCktiX wrote:Image


I'm glad that you're sticking through with this map Tac, but I'm not really getting it so far. I appreciate that you've attended this school and have strong personal feeling for it, but the rest of the world could probably care less. That's kind of why I abandoned my Charleston, SC map. I love the city, and thought it would make a great map, but as much as I love it, most people have never heard of it. I just couldn't get the support.

On the other hand, you seem to have more buzz around this map than I had with mine. And you're taking the constructive critisism pretty well. So that's good. But here's my 2 cents.

  • I think the grass has to be toned down some, or if you would prefer, take it out from the background behind the legend and the text on the field. It's just too distracting (overall).
  • It took me a while to find where the tower was. Is there a way you could make it stand out a little more?
  • The whole bottom 1/3 of the screen looks very confusing. The checkerboard pattern doesn't help either. There are too many flags / dotted-lines and hard to read words that don't have any kind of flow. I wouldn't stand a chance at this map without bob script help.
  • The red flags ontop of the checkerboard don't work. When you put armies on top of this, it will be way too confusing.
  • so does the parade deck get an autodeploy bonus every turn? It should.
  • Your other buildings look fine, with good colors and good use of shadows, and walkways.
  • try bringing your building name font down a bit. It looks a little too big now. Use a plain font like tahoma or arial. You may want to take the anti-aliasing off and just make it like 8pt. italic with 1 pt. white stroke / or something very plain. I kind of don't like how some names are larger font than others, even when the words still are overlapping the building outlines.
But good luck with the map. We need a good South Carolina map on CC !!
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:44 pm

RjBeals wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:Image


I'm glad that you're sticking through with this map Tac, but I'm not really getting it so far. I appreciate that you've attended this school and have strong personal feeling for it, but the rest of the world could probably care less. That's kind of why I abandoned my Charleston, SC map. I love the city, and thought it would make a great map, but as much as I love it, most people have never heard of it. I just couldn't get the support.

On the other hand, you seem to have more buzz around this map than I had with mine. And you're taking the constructive critisism pretty well. So that's good. But here's my 2 cents.


Whether it be stubbornness or patience, only time will tell.

RjBeals wrote:I think the grass has to be toned down some, or if you would prefer, take it out from the background behind the legend and the text on the field. It's just too distracting (overall).


I think I'm going to opt for Black 50% Opacity boxes with white text around the entire map. That way it's clearly readable universally. I'd like to replace the legend background, but I have no idea what to put there that would be "appropriate" to the map theme. Ideas shoot them my way.

RjBeals wrote:It took me a while to find where the tower was. Is there a way you could make it stand out a little more?


Behold the upcoming power of Stroke! Or something similar to highlight it. My earlier worry was making sure people could tell "hey, this is part of 2nd and can be attacked 4 ways (both Quads, Echo, F-Troop).

RjBeals wrote:The whole bottom 1/3 of the screen looks very confusing. The checkerboard pattern doesn't help either. There are too many flags / dotted-lines and hard to read words that don't have any kind of flow. I wouldn't stand a chance at this map without bob script help.


The entire thing follows the same adjacency rules, they're just weird. Note on my upcoming version 7 I'm going to alternately eliminate the quads for solid color or tone them down significantly. You'll see the results of both when I post it.

RjBeals wrote:The red flags ontop of the checkerboard don't work. When you put armies on top of this, it will be way too confusing.


The box for the armies is BELOW the red flag. Suppose that's not exactly apparent as it is right now.

RjBeals wrote:so does the parade deck get an autodeploy bonus every turn? It should.


Why should it? It's a territory that can access the rest of the map with ease. Holding it is a privilege all its own. By that argument the people who keep on accusing me of copying CCU should be advocating there be a +1 auto-deploy to the Quad on that map.

RjBeals wrote:Your other buildings look fine, with good colors and good use of shadows, and walkways.


Virtually satellite-accurate.

RjBeals wrote:try bringing your building name font down a bit. It looks a little too big now. Use a plain font like tahoma or arial. You may want to take the anti-aliasing off and just make it like 8pt. italic with 1 pt. white stroke / or something very plain. I kind of don't like how some names are larger font than others, even when the words still are overlapping the building outlines.


A few of the territory names are cramped for space (namely President). The Company names need to be enlarged. In Versions 5 and before, they had to be that small to fit at all, but Version 6 liberated me of a ton of space, so expect a few "bigger" names. Aside from those, all territories are universally 3 point type.

RjBeals wrote:But good luck with the map. We need a good South Carolina map on CC !!


American Civil War and USA don't count? Bummer... ;)
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:44 pm

RjBeals wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:Image


I'm glad that you're sticking through with this map Tac, but I'm not really getting it so far. I appreciate that you've attended this school and have strong personal feeling for it, but the rest of the world could probably care less. That's kind of why I abandoned my Charleston, SC map. I love the city, and thought it would make a great map, but as much as I love it, most people have never heard of it. I just couldn't get the support.

On the other hand, you seem to have more buzz around this map than I had with mine. And you're taking the constructive critisism pretty well. So that's good. But here's my 2 cents.


Whether it be stubbornness or patience, only time will tell.

RjBeals wrote:I think the grass has to be toned down some, or if you would prefer, take it out from the background behind the legend and the text on the field. It's just too distracting (overall).


I think I'm going to opt for Black 50% Opacity boxes with white text around the entire map. That way it's clearly readable universally. I'd like to replace the legend background, but I have no idea what to put there that would be "appropriate" to the map theme. Ideas shoot them my way.

RjBeals wrote:It took me a while to find where the tower was. Is there a way you could make it stand out a little more?


Behold the upcoming power of Stroke! Or something similar to highlight it. My earlier worry was making sure people could tell "hey, this is part of 2nd and can be attacked 4 ways (both Quads, Echo, F-Troop).

RjBeals wrote:The whole bottom 1/3 of the screen looks very confusing. The checkerboard pattern doesn't help either. There are too many flags / dotted-lines and hard to read words that don't have any kind of flow. I wouldn't stand a chance at this map without bob script help.


The entire thing follows the same adjacency rules, they're just weird. Note on my upcoming version 7 I'm going to alternately eliminate the quads for solid color or tone them down significantly. You'll see the results of both when I post it.

RjBeals wrote:The red flags ontop of the checkerboard don't work. When you put armies on top of this, it will be way too confusing.


The box for the armies is BELOW the red flag. Suppose that's not exactly apparent as it is right now.

RjBeals wrote:so does the parade deck get an autodeploy bonus every turn? It should.


Why should it? It's a territory that can access the rest of the map with ease. Holding it is a privilege all its own. By that argument the people who keep on accusing me of copying CCU should be advocating there be a +1 auto-deploy to the Quad on that map.

RjBeals wrote:Your other buildings look fine, with good colors and good use of shadows, and walkways.


Virtually satellite-accurate.

RjBeals wrote:try bringing your building name font down a bit. It looks a little too big now. Use a plain font like tahoma or arial. You may want to take the anti-aliasing off and just make it like 8pt. italic with 1 pt. white stroke / or something very plain. I kind of don't like how some names are larger font than others, even when the words still are overlapping the building outlines.


A few of the territory names are cramped for space (namely President). The Company names need to be enlarged. In Versions 5 and before, they had to be that small to fit at all, but Version 6 liberated me of a ton of space, so expect a few "bigger" names. Aside from those, all territories are universally 3 point type.

RjBeals wrote:But good luck with the map. We need a good South Carolina map on CC !!


American Civil War and USA don't count? Bummer... ;)
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Re: The Citadel Map V5 (Pg1+4) Graphical Touchups

Postby RjBeals on Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:03 pm

TaCktiX wrote:
RjBeals wrote:But good luck with the map. We need a good South Carolina map on CC !!


American Civil War and USA don't count? Bummer... ;)
Technically I guess.

And yes I can tell the army boxes are below the red flags. It's just that there's too much going on. When I said no "flow" wasn't really referring to attack directions, but the overall feel of that area of the map. I more of a simple style person. that's why Cairns's map's scare the hell out of me.
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby RjBeals on Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:10 pm

Image

Image

Image

What about something very simple like this for fonts? Top is Arial, bottom 2 are Gothic 11 point, italic. Toned down grass noise also. :wink:
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:12 pm

I think a major thing in the way right now is the solid black borders of everything, now that I look at that. If I grayed it down or something similar, everything would be instantly readable. Another addition to the pile, I guess it's a good thing I went running today.
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby RjBeals on Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:31 pm

How did you make your dotted lines? Did you adjust the spacing in a photoshop brush to make them? They might be also adding to the busyness of the map. How does it look without the white stoke on them? Now it looks like ants. Have you tried smaller round dots with no stroke? Maybe not black but a different color?

(EDIT)
Like this?
Image
Image
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby RjBeals on Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:41 pm

I posted this in another forum, but thought you might find it useful.

Dotted Line
Hit F5 to bring up your brushes pallet. Click Brush Tip Shape. Adjust your spacing until you are satisfied.
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Image
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:47 pm

When I don't know the PhotoShop shortcut, I make up my own. The attack lines were originally one short line rasterized ("one dash"). I duplicated it twice, spaced one duplicate out a bit, and created "two dash". Then I took "two dash" and "one dash", duplicated them, and made "three dash". Using transform controls, I created One-Three Dash "Up". I then used those layers all over the map, duplicating and moving them as necessary. Some of them I can remove the stroke from instantly, but others got some merging done to them (parade deck routes, mainly, when I extended them) and the layer style got cleared. Then again, the attack lines were before I dropped the opacity on all the "fluff" so I don't think the white is necessary now. *Adds to the pile for Version 7*

Dang you guys, Version 7 was going to be a bit update and now it's going to be crizazy.
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby CatfishJohnson on Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:29 pm

Don't ever say Crizazy again mori, ever
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Re: The Citadel Map V6 (Pg1+5) Graphical Overhaul

Postby TaCktiX on Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:29 pm

Version 7

Updates:
- Changed the reigning font from Verdana to Arial
- Standardized (nearly) font size around the map
- Switched to white text with black strokes
- Checkerboard patterns removed in favor of solid color
- Quad flags/army squares re-positioned to be more readable
- All buildings were changed from black outline to gray outline
- Moved bonus and special feature text around a little bit to free up map space

Image

Discussion Points:
- Are the new quads good?
- Is the text more or less readable? I seem to change to one scheme that works for 90% of the map and fails in 10% of it. Need to get this resolved ASAP.
- Is the position of bonuses and other special features alright, or do they need some moving? If so, where?
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby t-o-m on Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:00 pm

since the text is only small and thin, the black lines around it make it look blury to me, that maybe just my eyesight??
but the text is still readable

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