Rail Australia [Quenched]

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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:55 pm

oaktown wrote:
cairnswk wrote:I didn't think it would be that obscure.

.....
Anyway, are you hearing any more concerns about this, or does this seem ready to lose the BETA tag?

I could be wrong, but isn't this just a bit early to move this out of BETA. It got quenched 27 Dec, but only made live 21 Jan. What's the hurry?
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby oaktown on Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:53 am

cairnswk wrote:
oaktown wrote:
cairnswk wrote:I didn't think it would be that obscure.

.....
Anyway, are you hearing any more concerns about this, or does this seem ready to lose the BETA tag?

I could be wrong, but isn't this just a bit early to move this out of BETA. It got quenched 27 Dec, but only made live 21 Jan. What's the hurry?

No hurry, I was just doing a sweep of the maps in the Forge and I wanted to know what the status of this map was... if there are changes to be made (as there are with other maps in BETA) I'd like to see the process moving, but this one looks like it might be good to go so far.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:14 pm

The SARail bonus is very unclear, it turns out. I'm in a game (Game 4167989) where green legitimately holds the SARail bonus according to what I would assume on a Rail map. In actuality he has to hold all of ADL and its long-distance routes, something counter to the way Rail USA's Chicago and Rail Europe's Paris works. Due to the one-letter routes there is no way to tell that those extra 3 territories belong to SARail unless you have BOB. Any chance of a fix to this?
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:04 pm

TaCktiX wrote:The SARail bonus is very unclear, it turns out. I'm in a game (Game 4167989) where green legitimately holds the SARail bonus according to what I would assume on a Rail map. In actuality he has to hold all of ADL and its long-distance routes, something counter to the way Rail USA's Chicago and Rail Europe's Paris works. Due to the one-letter routes there is no way to tell that those extra 3 territories belong to SARail unless you have BOB. Any chance of a fix to this?

TaCktiX...regardless of whether this bonus works the same as USA and Europe (one cannot expect every bonus to work the same simply because it is in a series piece), the only thing i am prepared to do for this is to increase the glow around those letters to make them stand out more as below. I do not want to include anymore text on the map as this will interfere with the overall aesthetics of the design etc.

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http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... a_V28S.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... a_V28L.jpg
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby Gilligan on Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:09 pm

I think he is asking why ADL G, O, and I are in the R bonus.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby Night Strike on Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:21 pm

TaCktiX wrote:The SARail bonus is very unclear, it turns out. I'm in a game (Game 4167989) where green legitimately holds the SARail bonus according to what I would assume on a Rail map. In actuality he has to hold all of ADL and its long-distance routes, something counter to the way Rail USA's Chicago and Rail Europe's Paris works. Due to the one-letter routes there is no way to tell that those extra 3 territories belong to SARail unless you have BOB. Any chance of a fix to this?


I believe I asked the same thing on the previous page. It makes no since that all of ADL belongs to the bonus since it's not labeled as such.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby Gilligan on Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:22 pm

1. BHL borders ADL-R even though it doesn't have the letter R on the station.

2. BDT borders ADL-R even though it doesn't have the letter R on the station.


I was going to mention this too.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:47 pm

Night Strike wrote:...
I believe I asked the same thing on the previous page. It makes no since that all of ADL belongs to the bonus since it's not labeled as such.

perhaps -> sense

Gilligan wrote:I think he is asking why ADL G, O, and I are in the R bonus.


In case it hasn't clicked yet....this map's main bonus system is based on the Railways of each State and are definitely not the same as USA and EUROPE, hence South Australian Railway SAR (yellow) includes all those stations within the confines of the 'doo where...as well as being required to have R station, you also have to have O, I, G stations in Adelaide which are the long distance train stations.
It makes perfect sense to me.... :)

Night Strike wrote:...
I believe I asked the same thing on the previous page. It makes no since that all of ADL belongs to the bonus since it's not labeled as such.

But it is labelled as such by colour association....don't you guys see anything sometimes to different kinds of assocations.

Gilligan wrote:
1. BHL borders ADL-R even though it doesn't have the letter R on the station.

2. BDT borders ADL-R even though it doesn't have the letter R on the station.


I was going to mention this too.


Of course they border....they are all encompassed with the ADL station, therefore it makes sense that that BDT and BHL would border.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby Night Strike on Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:50 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Gilligan wrote:I think he is asking why ADL G, O, and I are in the R bonus.


In case it hasn't clicked yet....this map's main bonus system is based on the Railways of each State and are definitely not the same as USA and EUROPE, hence South Australian Railway SAR (yellow) includes all those stations within the confines of the 'doo where...as well as being required to have R station, you also have to have O, I, G stations in Adelaide which are the long distance train stations.
It makes perfect sense to me.... :)


Making perfect sense to you is NOT the same thing as making sense to the people who didn't design the map. I just now noticed that the ADL stations had the same colors as the SAR bonus, but that's counter-intuitive to how you have the rest of the map laid out. EVERYWHERE else the bonus is both color and letter labeled, but here you mess that whole system up. When I look at the map, I expect each of those letters to belong to their respective train bonuses, then having the whole ADL counts towards the Long Distance bonuses.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:42 pm

Night Strike wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Gilligan wrote:I think he is asking why ADL G, O, and I are in the R bonus.


In case it hasn't clicked yet....this map's main bonus system is based on the Railways of each State and are definitely not the same as USA and EUROPE, hence South Australian Railway SAR (yellow) includes all those stations within the confines of the 'doo where...as well as being required to have R station, you also have to have O, I, G stations in Adelaide which are the long distance train stations.
It makes perfect sense to me.... :)


Making perfect sense to you is NOT the same thing as making sense to the people who didn't design the map. I just now noticed that the ADL stations had the same colors as the SAR bonus, but that's counter-intuitive to how you have the rest of the map laid out. EVERYWHERE else the bonus is both color and letter labeled, but here you mess that whole system up. When I look at the map, I expect each of those letters to belong to their respective train bonuses, then having the whole ADL counts towards the Long Distance bonuses.

Counter-intuitive to what you want...is that it?
What do you want, a big long streak of text that explains why i+o+g+r=adl
Honestly NS. :shock:
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lackattack has uploaded the changed images above.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby Night Strike on Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:53 pm

No cairns, I know all those stations belong to ADL for the long distance bonuses. What I'm saying is that it is not clear that all 4 belong to the SAR bonus. From the lettering on the map, only 1 ADL station should be needed for the SAR bonus (the R one), not all 4.
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Re: RAIL AUSTRALIA V24 (p16) [I,Gp] - Graphic changes

Postby oaktown on Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:07 pm

You were right, cairnswk, it was indeed too early to suggest that this map was trouble-free. And this concern about the ADL station certainly is not new and should not come as a surprise to you. I stamped it not fully grasping the depth of the potential confusion; I also thought that only one of those stations was part of the R bonus.

cairnswk wrote:
oaktown wrote:...
Alright, it's your funeral. ;)
A change to the way the station is laid out would, in my opinion, make the play more clear, but as it wouldn't actually impact the way the map plays so I guess I'm ready to stamp this puppy...


Let's hope that stamping this isn't your funeral. I'm sure it won't be! ;)
If they don't understand it, they'll easily learn if they want to play it, and it does create consistency with the other rail maps but just in a different style, even though there is only four (platforms) in there. :)

I still think it's unclear... why have one ADL station labelled "R" if they are all "R"s? Nowhere else on the map is there a city that has a long distance line, yet a separate territory for the non-long distance track. And every other long distance station that is also a part of region (all of them) explicitly states that. If you're playing this map without BOB there is no way of knowing what territory belongs to which bonus.

I would NOT suggest removing the ADL I, O, and G stations from the R region, because such moves would be drastic and wouldn't be in keeping with the play of the map. I would say do one of two things:

1. Add an "R" to the ADL I, O, and G stations somehow (easiest fix).
2. Have just three territories in ADL: one labeled IR, one labeled GR, and one labeled OR (more significant change but consistent with the play of the rest of the map).

(edit: I'm going to put the sticky back on these BETA maps, as they all have little tweaks that require attention)
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:53 pm

Is this suitable?

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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby Night Strike on Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:20 pm

I'll take it. Much better than before.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:41 pm

Night Strike wrote:I'll take it. Much better than before.

Thank you Night Strike,. but it's a real shame that you and others don't get into the Map Foundry and express your concerns before these maps are quenched.
You could save us and others a lot of energy and time wasting.
This map was available for ages in the Foundry and hardly anyone bothered to comment on it. :)
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby oaktown on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:08 pm

cairnswk wrote:it's a real shame that you and others don't get into the Map Foundry and express your concerns before these maps are quenched.

Ah, the thankless and lonely job of the mapmaker.

Anyway, I think the above change will do the trick.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:15 pm

Agreed, that's fine.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby Night Strike on Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:35 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Night Strike wrote:I'll take it. Much better than before.

Thank you Night Strike,. but it's a real shame that you and others don't get into the Map Foundry and express your concerns before these maps are quenched.
You could save us and others a lot of energy and time wasting.
This map was available for ages in the Foundry and hardly anyone bothered to comment on it. :)


Oh, come on now cairns, you know that isn't accurate. I'm not a foundry regular, but I've supported all 3 of your Rail maps through most if not all of the process. I didn't follow the map as closely near the end, but I also didn't realize there would be something unclear like that. Your fix is hidden enough to not take away from the map, but still relevant to address the issue.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:35 am

oaktown wrote:
cairnswk wrote:it's a real shame that you and others don't get into the Map Foundry and express your concerns before these maps are quenched.

Ah, the thankless and lonely job of the mapmaker.

Anyway, I think the above change will do the trick.

Yes and you know it all too well don't you? :)
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:37 am

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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:57 am

I'm playing my first game on this map, and I was convinced there was a dot between LHC and QLP indicating a connection... It's definitely there, and looks more like an attack route on the small map. If I lose the game, I'm going to blame that dot! :o
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby cairnswk on Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:22 pm

MrBenn wrote:I'm playing my first game on this map, and I was convinced there was a dot between LHC and QLP indicating a connection... It's definitely there, and looks more like an attack route on the small map. If I lose the game, I'm going to blame that dot! :o

of course Mr Benn, you can blame anything you like...except your own eyes.
That black dot is actually the tip of the railway station roof. ;)
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby MrBenn on Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:51 pm

Now that you've told me what it is, I can see that. I still think it's an issue on the small map - it's the combination of the circles on the roof that lead to that bit of the roof looking like it isn't the roof... and as the two stations are so close it feels like they could connect... Yes, I should have been paying more attention, but this kind of thing is the trivial kind of thing that puts people off maps (I haven't knowingly played China since misattacking Shaanxi/Shanxi)...
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby Qwert on Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:03 pm

LHC QLP,hmm i must say that i dont see any black dots betwen these two station.
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Re: Rail Australia [Quenched]

Postby the.killing.44 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:16 pm

qwert wrote:LHC QLP,hmm i must say that i dont see any black dots betwen these two station.

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now fill the area around that with 580x550px of similar graphics.

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