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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:26 pm
by edbeard
let's get this one forged

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:20 am
by MrBenn
It's about time we actually had a revamp get finished!

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:46 am
by oaktown
edbeard wrote:let's get this one forged

Agreed.

              Final Forge

---The Germany Revamp project has reached the ‘Final Forge’ Stage. The map has passed rigorous gameplay and graphics examinations, and major concerns have been addressed. If you have any other concerns, please make your voice heard. If after a reasonable amount of time there has not been any objection or protest, the map will be deemed finished with the 'Foundry Brand' of approval and will be submitted for live play. As long as there is still discussion or posts that have yet to be commented on, the map will remain in Final Forge until said discussion has reached the conclusion that the map has reached its final and polished version.

Post questions and concerns if any.

              Image

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:17 am
by lanyards
=D>

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:32 am
by Arachnophobia
I think this already went through the whole small issues phase :P

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:33 pm
by laci_mae
Quench it. It's been ready!

L

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:17 pm
by Bruceswar
Since you asked... I think this new map is terrible... I will not be playing this one at all. Ruined another map... Changing the game play of a map is never a good idea if you ask me. Well rarely, but not in this case.

YUK!

1. Terrible color choices, even if that is the colors of Germany.. 2nd map in the first post are much better color choices.
2. The movement of spots of top is bad as well. That 1 way spot (1 way in and out) will totally change how this map is played... Bad bad idea.
3. Mountains to rivers down south? What happen did those mountains just vanish? Poof be gone?
4. What happens to current games on this map since all the places are moved and changed? Will there be 2 map choices?


I will end with this... All these maps getting revamped is bad for this site. You say in the long run it will be better, etc etc. I do not agree. Look at what the classic ordeal did. I know many many people who left to never come back. Those people then spread the word about CC in a negative light.

Get your own ideas people and stop trying to "fix" other maps that do not need it. Fixing Graphics is one thing. OK I am all for some new graphics at times, but when you start changing game play, names etc it becomes a bad bad idea.

Only good revamp I can remember was the France Revamp.

British Isles - Nope
Classic - Nope - Both times
France - Good and needed
Brazil - Not looking good..
Germany - Bad Bad Bad



Maps are supposed to be original ideas, not taking someone elses idea and trying to make it better. Once in a rare while it is needed but many many times not needed.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:43 pm
by Incandenza
Sorry, Bruce, but you're simply not paying attention. When a map is revamped, it is purely a graphical revamp. Gameplay isn't changed one iota. And as far as changing names, does it really make that much of a difference? If there's a more geographically appropriate name that could be used, shouldn't some attempt be made to use it?

Bruceswar wrote:Only good revamp I can remember was the France Revamp.

British Isles - Nope
Classic - Nope - Both times
France - Good and needed
Brazil - Not looking good..
Germany - Bad Bad Bad


And you're not only cherry-picking revamp examples, you're wrong on a couple of them. Classic was not a revamp, in the official sense that the word is used. And France has never been revamped, it's a standalone map so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Plus to say that RJ's Brazil revamp is not head-and-shoulders above the current map... well, I suppose everyone can have an opinion, but that one doesn't make any sense to me.

And you're omitting the Indochina, Circus Maximus, and Middle East revamps, all of which substantially improved the graphics of those maps.

One final point: I respect your opinion, and I'm glad that you've come in here to speak your mind, but for you to say:

Bruceswar wrote:Maps are supposed to be original ideas, not taking someone elses idea and trying to make it better.


is disparaging and pretty damn disingenuous. An insane amount of work goes into these revamps, and people are putting in the hours (unpaid) for the betterment of the site. Many of CC's older maps are simply not as good-looking as the newer ones, and while old maps may have a nostalgia factor for some older players, it's better for the site to have its flagship geographical maps look halfway attractive.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:56 pm
by laci_mae
Incandenza, I totally agree.

Brucewar, it's disrespectful and completely out-of-line for you to slam all of the hard work that's gone into this map (and others). This site flourishes due to constructive comments volunteered by those with a helpful and polite spirit. Perhaps you a momentary lapse in your generally positive affect is the root of your remarks. I trust your future sentiments will be kinder and more useful.

LMR

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:22 pm
by Bruceswar
Good some response...

1. Classic was touched up back in April? I am not talking about the most recent Classic Art / Classic Shapes. We all know how that went over...

2. I did not list all revamps as some of them really needed it. I have been around just over a year, so only the ones I seen happen or have looked up.

3. I made an error in France.. remember looking at the thread. Saw the first image, then the finished product. Totally 100% different and much better at the end.

4. Personally I like Brazil as it is now. Don't you think rjBeals could put his great talent to use elsewhere? With that being said, I am a fan of bold colored maps that jump off the screen. Pastel maps do not do much for me.

5. Also I know tons of time goes into a revamp, which is why I think many of these revamps would be better served making new maps and or fixing the maps that really need fixing. CCU could use some new graphics perhaps. A Few others come to mind as well.

With all that being said I am glad the map makers of CC are pushing to get the best maps out available anywhere online. This is what makes CC #1 over any other places.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:25 pm
by Bruceswar
laci_mae wrote:Incandenza, I totally agree.

Brucewar, it's disrespectful and completely out-of-line for you to slam all of the hard work that's gone into this map (and others). This site flourishes due to constructive comments volunteered by those with a helpful and polite spirit. Perhaps you a momentary lapse in your generally positive affect is the root of your remarks. I trust your future sentiments will be kinder and more useful.

LMR


Let me say this... I was not trying to be disrespectful. I know tons of time go into the making or revamping of each map. All the people who do all the hard work on these maps should be given some nice rewards. This is just one revamp that I do not really care for. His first version to me was much better. Then again I like bolder colors.

Sorry if I came across a bit too harsh.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:26 pm
by Optimus Prime
Is everyone forgetting that a large number of the REVAMPS are made because the original artist wants them revamped? I know for a fact that is the case with Brazil and British Isles. Why is everyone going around ranting and raving about REVAMPS the last couple of days? If the original artist wants it changed, they can have it changed, they don't owe any of us anything.

End of story.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:31 pm
by Incandenza
Optimus Prime wrote:Is everyone forgetting that a large number of the REVAMPS are made because the original artist wants them revamped? I know for a fact that is the case with Brazil and British Isles. Why is everyone going around ranting and raving about REVAMPS the last couple of days? If the original artist wants it changed, they can have it changed, they don't owe any of us anything.

End of story.


Well said. And to amplify, it's my understanding that a revamp CANNOT begin without the express permission of the original artist.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:47 pm
by pepperonibread
Bruceswar wrote:Since you asked... I think this new map is terrible... I will not be playing this one at all. Ruined another map... Changing the game play of a map is never a good idea if you ask me. Well rarely, but not in this case.

YUK!

1. Terrible color choices, even if that is the colors of Germany.. 2nd map in the first post are much better color choices.
2. The movement of spots of top is bad as well. That 1 way spot (1 way in and out) will totally change how this map is played... Bad bad idea.
3. Mountains to rivers down south? What happen did those mountains just vanish? Poof be gone?
4. What happens to current games on this map since all the places are moved and changed? Will there be 2 map choices?


I will end with this... All these maps getting revamped is bad for this site. You say in the long run it will be better, etc etc. I do not agree. Look at what the classic ordeal did. I know many many people who left to never come back. Those people then spread the word about CC in a negative light.

Get your own ideas people and stop trying to "fix" other maps that do not need it. Fixing Graphics is one thing. OK I am all for some new graphics at times, but when you start changing game play, names etc it becomes a bad bad idea.

Only good revamp I can remember was the France Revamp.

British Isles - Nope
Classic - Nope - Both times
France - Good and needed
Brazil - Not looking good..
Germany - Bad Bad Bad


Maps are supposed to be original ideas, not taking someone elses idea and trying to make it better. Once in a rare while it is needed but many many times not needed.


Well, Incandenza and others hit virtually everything, I'll add to two things though. Foremost, no gameplay changes are being made to the Germany map, as I said earlier (see the "About the Revamp" quote in the first post of this thread for more info). That misconception seems to be where much of this revamp opposition springs from. All changes to territory names, shapes, and borders have been made to increase accuracy while preserving the original gameplay.
The other thing you mention is a revamp's effect on the site. I honestly believe that revamps are better in the long run for CC. The benefits of having enticing and/or interesting graphics on CC will almost certainly outweigh a few old members portraying the site in a negative light.
Last, for your individual comments:
1. This color scheme was decided on due to a certain lack of German flavor in the original draft of the revamp. It's been adjusted throughout this thread - to be frank, I'd venture to say that this aspect of the image has really already been agreed upon, save for some minor adjustments.
2. Which spot are you referring to? The territories Osnabruck and Munster do not border, if this is what you're talking about I could scoot the mountains over a bit to make the impassable more clear.
3. These were switched for accuracy's sake.
4. This revamp would replace the current Germany map.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:26 pm
by Bruceswar
Optimus Prime wrote:Is everyone forgetting that a large number of the REVAMPS are made because the original artist wants them revamped? I know for a fact that is the case with Brazil and British Isles. Why is everyone going around ranting and raving about REVAMPS the last couple of days? If the original artist wants it changed, they can have it changed, they don't owe any of us anything.

End of story.



While this is 100% true, these maps also by part belong to the CC Community. They may not have the rights to change them, but surely they can vote by choosing the play map X or not.

Edited to add: Just a guess but 80% of CC does not visit the forums much, if at all. With that being said, I think many more people would help /give ideas etc if a note was put in the my games section. Then you would have far less people upset over a map revamp. Maybe even a scrolling text with important news. "Brazil map getting revamped: Check it here" "Germany map getting revamped: Check it here" Or anything else CC deems important, such as medals, feedback, new rule changes etc. Leave it for a few weeks and get a better feel on things. But that is for another topic.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:37 pm
by Incandenza
Bruceswar wrote:
Optimus Prime wrote:Is everyone forgetting that a large number of the REVAMPS are made because the original artist wants them revamped? I know for a fact that is the case with Brazil and British Isles. Why is everyone going around ranting and raving about REVAMPS the last couple of days? If the original artist wants it changed, they can have it changed, they don't owe any of us anything.

End of story.



While this is 100% true, these maps also by part belong to the CC Community. They may not have the rights to change them, but surely they can vote by choosing the play map X or not.

Edited to add: Just a guess but 80% of CC does not visit the forums much, if at all. With that being said, I think many more people would help /give ideas etc if a note was put in the my games section. Then you would have far less people upset over a map revamp. Maybe even a scrolling text with important news. "Brazil map getting revamped: Check it here" "Germany map getting revamped: Check it here" Or anything else CC deems important, such as medals, feedback, new rule changes etc. Leave it for a few weeks and get a better feel on things. But that is for another topic.


The problem is that the vast vast majority of CCers simply don't care and have zero curiosity about where maps come from. For most players (and this extends across ranks, I have stories that would blow cartographer's minds), maps might as well be brought fully-created by the bloody stork. So when there's a mild uproar like this (and let's be honest, this is about as mild an uproar as one could have on CC), I tend not to have a great deal of sympathy.

Even when map information is posted on the homepage, most people just breeze right past it. I see what you're saying about a note on the "my games" page, but there's a couple of problems with that. One is that the average revamp takes several months at least, so how long should any sort of notice remain up? Two is that I imagine lack likes to keep my games page notices to fundamental, site-wide notices, like the new rating system or the upgrade to the forum software.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:09 pm
by Bruceswar
Incandenza wrote:The problem is that the vast vast majority of CCers simply don't care and have zero curiosity about where maps come from. For most players (and this extends across ranks, I have stories that would blow cartographer's minds), maps might as well be brought fully-created by the bloody stork. So when there's a mild uproar like this (and let's be honest, this is about as mild an uproar as one could have on CC), I tend not to have a great deal of sympathy.

Even when map information is posted on the homepage, most people just breeze right past it. I see what you're saying about a note on the "my games" page, but there's a couple of problems with that. One is that the average revamp takes several months at least, so how long should any sort of notice remain up? Two is that I imagine lack likes to keep my games page notices to fundamental, site-wide notices, like the new rating system or the upgrade to the forum software.



While many think these maps come from the stork already done, many more would like a say in the matter. I know a friend of mine, took part in the first part of the Brazil revamp, since Oaktown posted in a game chat to check it out. He rarely reads the forums, and I am not sure if he has posted at all. Also how many maps are being revamped at a time? 2 or 3 max usually. With a ticker like they use on sports websites, they could have it scroll the messages. It would only be like 5 messages max or so. Messages about forum updates, medals, etc would last a week or 2, while revamps could last as long as needed. Informed people are much more happy in the long run, than the overnight changes some seem to make.

To those who think the stork gives the maps to CC, well not too much you can say to them other than "F Off and try one for yourself and then let me know how easy it is". For those who would like to have a say, better advertisement would help a ton.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:36 pm
by Bruceswar
pepperonibread wrote:
Last, for your individual comments:
1. This color scheme was decided on due to a certain lack of German flavor in the original draft of the revamp. It's been adjusted throughout this thread - to be frank, I'd venture to say that this aspect of the image has really already been agreed upon, save for some minor adjustments.
2. Which spot are you referring to? The territories Osnabruck and Munster do not border, if this is what you're talking about I could scoot the mountains over a bit to make the impassable more clear.
3. These were switched for accuracy's sake.
4. This revamp would replace the current Germany map.



1. Fine about the German flavor, but there are other ways to go about getting it.
2. I meant the movement of Berlin down south and making the island. Also Moving Kiel into the other bonus.
3. Fine if you want to be accurate, but we must remember it is a game. Anyhow that will not effect the game play at all really, just a notice.
4. So what will happen if you owned a spot that has been moved to another bonus area? Say Dresden or Kiel? Also what about the new spots on the maps? Where do those go?

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:40 pm
by edbeard
people that would like to have a say are already in the forums

unless you mean the type of "have a say" which encompasses things like "it's a good idea", "it's a bad idea", "you should do it like this and I won't come back until everything is already done and complain that no one listened to my probably not thought out idea", etc


people don't like change. simple as that. It'd be very nice if each map had small, large, original small, original large versions. That would require an XML overhaul. Adding revamps as a separate map seems like too much. We don't need two classic maps. We don't need two british isles or two germanys.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:42 pm
by edbeard
Bruceswar wrote:4. So what will happen if you owned a spot that has been moved to another bonus area? Say Dresden or Kiel? Also what about the new spots on the maps? Where do those go?


GAMEPLAY DOESN'T CHANGE. you might say, "Yea. I know that already." But, you're not grasping it. If I own territory X which appears in the bottom right and after the revamp it is located on the bottom left, it's still the same territory. It appears to be different but gameplay-wise you're in the same spot. The graphical representation of the gameplay has changed. That's it.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:18 pm
by Bruceswar
edbeard wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:4. So what will happen if you owned a spot that has been moved to another bonus area? Say Dresden or Kiel? Also what about the new spots on the maps? Where do those go?


GAMEPLAY DOESN'T CHANGE. you might say, "Yea. I know that already." But, you're not grasping it. If I own territory X which appears in the bottom right and after the revamp it is located on the bottom left, it's still the same territory. It appears to be different but gameplay-wise you're in the same spot. The graphical representation of the gameplay has changed. That's it.



Soo Basically what you are saying is the name of the places are changing, but nobody is going to be moved. I think you missed the question. Maybe I should be more specific.

If you own Dresden currently, which is part of the pink bonus do you have Berlin now?

Maybe it would be a bit helpful to most of the territory changes could be posted.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:47 pm
by edbeard
well you ask a general question and get a general answer.

ask a specific question and get a specific answer


Dresden is now Potsdam
Potsdam is now Magdeburg
Hamburg is now Rostock
Kiel is now Rugen

Image
Image

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:11 pm
by Optimus Prime
Bruceswar wrote:
Optimus Prime wrote:Is everyone forgetting that a large number of the REVAMPS are made because the original artist wants them revamped? I know for a fact that is the case with Brazil and British Isles. Why is everyone going around ranting and raving about REVAMPS the last couple of days? If the original artist wants it changed, they can have it changed, they don't owe any of us anything.

End of story.



While this is 100% true, these maps also by part belong to the CC Community. They may not have the rights to change them, but surely they can vote by choosing the play map X or not.

Edited to add: Just a guess but 80% of CC does not visit the forums much, if at all. With that being said, I think many more people would help /give ideas etc if a note was put in the my games section. Then you would have far less people upset over a map revamp. Maybe even a scrolling text with important news. "Brazil map getting revamped: Check it here" "Germany map getting revamped: Check it here" Or anything else CC deems important, such as medals, feedback, new rule changes etc. Leave it for a few weeks and get a better feel on things. But that is for another topic.

I beg to differ. The CC Community in no way owns any portion of the maps, they are 100% on loan to the CC community by the individual mapmaker's and as such the mapmaker has final say in what is done with them. Far more than 80% of the membership of this site has never seen the light of day inside these forums. You only think there is a "dislike" for REVAMPS because a few people show up in the forum and say something. It is not indicative of the membership as a whole in any way.

If cairnswk, WIdowmakers, RjBeals, and gimil were to walk in tomorrow and tell lackattack that they no longer wish to have their maps used on the site, there is nothing he can do about it. I say we are lucky to have the maps and the changes made during REVAMPS are not negative in any way.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:47 pm
by pepperonibread
edbeard wrote:Dresden is now Potsdam
Potsdam is now Magdeburg
Hamburg is now Rostock
Kiel is now Rugen


And...
Old map's Donrath = New map's Koblenz
Old map's Erfurt = New map's Zwickau
Old map's Augsburg = New map's Bayreuth
Old map's Niedersachsen = New map's Bremen
etc.

Similar adjustments happened in the entries to the Centerscape Revamp competition (viewtopic.php?f=127&t=72094), and I think in the British Isles revamp as well.
Just imagine a "skeleton map" like Classic shapes. You can distort, push, pull, and displace the territories all you want, but the gameplay still remains identical as long as none of the actual attack routes (lines) are altered or broken.

Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update 7th Post Pg. 16 [I,Gp,Gr]

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:40 pm
by pepperonibread
New update, I had some time now that exams are over:

Large:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Small:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Large w/ Army #'s:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Small w/ Army #'s:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Changes:
-Lightened the Preussen continent so the territory names are easier to see
-I now use bigimg tags in my updates, for yall stuck with little screens

To do:
-Small map problems?
-Write XML