[Official] Germany Revamp

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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby laddida on Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:33 pm

give me old germany back too many jagged lines and it looks like a 5 year old took crayons and went to town on it. I will probably eventually get used to this map but i have the same feeling about this map now that i did when classic went to classic shapes and i feel about as helpless about it as i did about classic as well. Wish there was a choice between using the revamp and the old some of us like to stick to what were used to. Some revamps are great like BI Canada and brazil but this one doesnt rate well with me sorry.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:17 pm

tyche73 wrote:what puts me off this map atm is the colouring isn't sharp enough for me
i know you like to put emblems in the backrounds of maps
and i enjoy looking at them but on this map they don't work (for me)

btw the finished map on page 1 looks fantastic till you have to play on it
i had trouble looking at yellows armies on nurnberg and green and blues armies
in the grey area
i think this has to do with emblems in backround to much happening in the colours and throwing my eye

i really like the map and is one of my favourites for singles

(btw the germany away soccer jesery is green after WW11 no one would play them in a friendly match ireland was the first team to do so and as a thanks they wear green as their away colour, if you needed to add another colour with a meaning although i couldn't see it helping i just thought i'd add that incase it helped)


Thanks for your interest in the map.
Unfortunately, I think I'll have to disagree with most of your post. It seems that you don't like the coats of arms on the map, though this seems like a subjective stylistic preference to me: cleaner map vs. more textured map. Believe me, there's been no shortage of posts regarding those emblems in this thread - about if they should be more visible, less so, or not there at all. But I think we in the end struck a compromise pretty well: they don't detract from visibility (for me) any more than patterns or symbols on other maps do, but they are visible enough to be seen as symbols and not merely clutter.
Though it's still an opinion issue, so I guess we'll wait more some more comments.

laddida wrote:give me old germany back too many jagged lines and it looks like a 5 year old took crayons and went to town on it. I will probably eventually get used to this map but i have the same feeling about this map now that i did when classic went to classic shapes and i feel about as helpless about it as i did about classic as well. Wish there was a choice between using the revamp and the old some of us like to stick to what were used to. Some revamps are great like BI Canada and brazil but this one doesnt rate well with me sorry.


It doesn't look like we'll have the option to choose between maps, as that's been discussed with every revamp and has never become an option. And truthfully, I think if you play the map a bit until you can see it from a more objective point of view, you'll see that it's a bit than a 5-year-old's job.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby laddida on Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:09 am

like i thought it is pointless to post in any of these cause never really makes a difference just wasting my time :-P
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby tyche73 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:21 am

laddida wrote:like i thought it is pointless to post in any of these cause never really makes a difference just wasting my time :-P



i agree

we are here because we're not happy with the map it's not clean and sharp
it's not easy to read,it looks muddled and too much happening in the colours
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:45 am

tyche73 wrote:
laddida wrote:like i thought it is pointless to post in any of these cause never really makes a difference just wasting my time :-P



i agree

we are here because we're not happy with the map it's not clean and sharp
it's not easy to read,it looks muddled and too much happening in the colours



While it will take some getting used to I do have one major complaint. That font used to name the territories is absolutely an eye sore. I find myself struggling to read what the names are. Being that I do not speak German these names do not come easy to me. With that said I am sure there could have been a better font chose and better bonus colors chosen.

BTW I liked Version 1 of this revamp much better. Those bright colors made it easy to see it all, rather than now which is hard to see.

I will quote what someone told me on MSN about this map in one word... "Clusterf*ck" I happen to agree with them on this one. While I have been a fan of most of the revamps this is not one I can support. This is nothing personal at you, just my views on the map as it stands.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby nesterdude on Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:21 am

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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby jghost7 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:00 am

Bruceswar wrote:
tyche73 wrote:
laddida wrote:like i thought it is pointless to post in any of these cause never really makes a difference just wasting my time :-P



i agree

we are here because we're not happy with the map it's not clean and sharp
it's not easy to read,it looks muddled and too much happening in the colours



While it will take some getting used to I do have one major complaint. That font used to name the territories is absolutely an eye sore. I find myself struggling to read what the names are. Being that I do not speak German these names do not come easy to me. With that said I am sure there could have been a better font chose and better bonus colors chosen.

BTW I liked Version 1 of this revamp much better. Those bright colors made it easy to see it all, rather than now which is hard to see.

I will quote what someone told me on MSN about this map in one word... "Clusterf*ck" I happen to agree with them on this one. While I have been a fan of most of the revamps this is not one I can support. This is nothing personal at you, just my views on the map as it stands.


I agree, when you first open up this thread and the maps at the beginning show, the one hoff gave where all the different colors was the best one. It is easy to read, and the color scheme made it easy to differentiate continents and borders. Also it was very asthetic.

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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:48 am

jghost7 wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
tyche73 wrote:
laddida wrote:like i thought it is pointless to post in any of these cause never really makes a difference just wasting my time :-P



i agree

we are here because we're not happy with the map it's not clean and sharp
it's not easy to read,it looks muddled and too much happening in the colours



While it will take some getting used to I do have one major complaint. That font used to name the territories is absolutely an eye sore. I find myself struggling to read what the names are. Being that I do not speak German these names do not come easy to me. With that said I am sure there could have been a better font chose and better bonus colors chosen.

BTW I liked Version 1 of this revamp much better. Those bright colors made it easy to see it all, rather than now which is hard to see.

I will quote what someone told me on MSN about this map in one word... "Clusterf*ck" I happen to agree with them on this one. While I have been a fan of most of the revamps this is not one I can support. This is nothing personal at you, just my views on the map as it stands.


I agree, when you first open up this thread and the maps at the beginning show, the one hoff gave where all the different colors was the best one. It is easy to read, and the color scheme made it easy to differentiate continents and borders. Also it was very asthetic.

J


Hey guys, what do you mean by the one that Hoff made? He created the old map, but he hasn't been on CC for years except to stop by this thread once or twice I think.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:13 pm

Lol, it is funny when people decide to never go in the foundery then are annoyed when something changes with a map and nobody asked them.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:53 pm

tyche73 wrote:
laddida wrote:like i thought it is pointless to post in any of these cause never really makes a difference just wasting my time :-P


i agree

we are here because we're not happy with the map it's not clean and sharp
it's not easy to read,it looks muddled and too much happening in the colours


laddida, you've posted no constructive criticism whatsoever, so I don't know what I'm supposed to do with your post. While other people have got specific concerns about the borders, or the font, or the areas that are tough to look at, this really doesn't help me make the map better at all.

tyche, your post was perfectly fine. It wasn't my intention to dismiss your comment entirely, like I said I had to disagree with your opinion that the map isn't clean enough, but that we should wait for more comments on the issue anyway. I won't change the map based on one opinion, as the foundry process works best when you can get a significant discussion going and see what people want most.
Obviously though, I understand that you aren't you only one with feelings against the new map. But I also have to take into account that prior to the map's quenching, nearly everyone who looked over the map saw few or no problems with it (otherwise it wouldn't have been quenched). So though it seems like there's been a huge unanimous outcry over this map as soon as it was released, we really have to wait for all opinions to come in and then strike a fair compromise based on that.

Bruceswar wrote:While it will take some getting used to I do have one major complaint. That font used to name the territories is absolutely an eye sore. I find myself struggling to read what the names are. Being that I do not speak German these names do not come easy to me. With that said I am sure there could have been a better font chose and better bonus colors chosen.

BTW I liked Version 1 of this revamp much better. Those bright colors made it easy to see it all, rather than now which is hard to see.

I will quote what someone told me on MSN about this map in one word... "Clusterf*ck" I happen to agree with them on this one. While I have been a fan of most of the revamps this is not one I can support. This is nothing personal at you, just my views on the map as it stands.


I'll look at some different fonts to possibly replace the current one, I think it looks quite good stylistically though I can see how it could make reading tougher.
Secondly, what is it exactly about the current colors that make it hard to see? Certainly, all maps don't need to be brightly colored to differentiate bonuses, in fact sometimes this is actually hindering to players. If you look at the original draft, if you can picture different colored army numbers besides the yellow I used, you can imagine how red numbers would be hard to see on Prussia, blue could be tough in Bavaria, and so on. So if anything, the pale colors on the left of the new map should aid visibility during games.
Or is it more an issue of distinguishing the pairs of bonuses which are similar in color to one around? If that's the case, I could slightly lighten the leftmost bonuses and/or thicken the lines between bonuses, to make them more distinct.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby the.killing.44 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:13 pm

Now that it has gone live I can only see one thing that could help it, and that would be to add army shadows (and by that I mean take the dodge tool and put specks under the coords) in the north bonus regions. It is a bit hard to read the darker colors up there.

But not a pressing issue, it's perfectly fine as is.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby tyche73 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:23 pm

Click image to enlarge.
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i posted this to show what i mean about about not clear
i hope this helps to solve the issue

please note green 5 up north and yellow 7 on nurnberg just as examples because they actually effected my next move
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby danryan on Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:29 pm

I will chime in that although the map is attractive graphically I think functionally it is very tough on play. The prime example is yellow armies on the yellow southeastern region, and god forbid if grey/steel is on the northeast. I like the color scheme and font in the original post a lot though.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:04 pm

Thanks killing, tyche, and danryan. So it seems that a primary visibility concern is distinguishing army numbers from some of the more saturated backgrounds. I think this can be basically remedied by tweaking a few colors and adding army shadows on some of the territories. Like killing suggested, I'm thinking a light shadow or glow will work best under the numbers, as using the circles many maps have would clutter this map too much.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:58 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:While it will take some getting used to I do have one major complaint. That font used to name the territories is absolutely an eye sore. I find myself struggling to read what the names are. Being that I do not speak German these names do not come easy to me. With that said I am sure there could have been a better font chose and better bonus colors chosen.

BTW I liked Version 1 of this revamp much better. Those bright colors made it easy to see it all, rather than now which is hard to see.

I will quote what someone told me on MSN about this map in one word... "Clusterf*ck" I happen to agree with them on this one. While I have been a fan of most of the revamps this is not one I can support. This is nothing personal at you, just my views on the map as it stands.


I'll look at some different fonts to possibly replace the current one, I think it looks quite good stylistically though I can see how it could make reading tougher.
Secondly, what is it exactly about the current colors that make it hard to see? Certainly, all maps don't need to be brightly colored to differentiate bonuses, in fact sometimes this is actually hindering to players. If you look at the original draft, if you can picture different colored army numbers besides the yellow I used, you can imagine how red numbers would be hard to see on Prussia, blue could be tough in Bavaria, and so on. So if anything, the pale colors on the left of the new map should aid visibility during games.
Or is it more an issue of distinguishing the pairs of bonuses which are similar in color to one around? If that's the case, I could slightly lighten the leftmost bonuses and/or thicken the lines between bonuses, to make them more distinct.


When I look at a map I always look at it from the view of I am a brand new person to CC and this is my first time on it. I can verify this quickly by asking for a friend's opinion on this map who does not play CC. Which is what I usually do. I ask him(different people) a series of quick questions and see how many he gets right or wrong or has trouble with. This time he told me those 2 yellow bonuses he could not tell apart much and the map was overall hard to read. I had to agree with him. He also noted that those slate areas were not great either.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby danfrank on Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:32 pm

There is obvious discontent with this map... an antrocity in comparison to the original and yet with disapproval from the community the map still gets forged through.. I b
can begin to pick at all the things i do not like . just to sum it up.. A revamp is supposed to be an improvement and this map definitly does not reflect that.. :?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby samuelc812 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:36 pm

Why is everyone complaining, this map has been moving through the foundry for a long time, everyone has had ample opportunity to voice their opinion of concern for the map, yet no one has.

I suggest people start following especially revamp threads if they enjoy the map being revamped, so that they don't get dissappointed when it does finally go up for beta play. A classic example of why more people should come in the foundry and look at threads that interest them ;)
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:21 pm

samuelc812 wrote:Why is everyone complaining, this map has been moving through the foundry for a long time, everyone has had ample opportunity to voice their opinion of concern for the map, yet no one has.

I suggest people start following especially revamp threads if they enjoy the map being revamped, so that they don't get dissappointed when it does finally go up for beta play. A classic example of why more people should come in the foundry and look at threads that interest them ;)



95% of CC never has visited the forums. Don't you think when a map that is already out is being redone 100% of CC should know? With that said everybody looks at their my games page. Simple messages scrolling at the top would save lots of grief. The way it is now many feel maps are being taken away at the leisure of CC. If such messages were to warn people of a revamp there would be far less out cry. So for now people vote with their play. They boycott maps they do not like or play them very little. This goes into that bin for me and many others.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:40 pm

danfrank wrote:There is obvious discontent with this map... an antrocity in comparison to the original and yet with disapproval from the community the map still gets forged through.. I b
can begin to pick at all the things i do not like . just to sum it up.. A revamp is supposed to be an improvement and this map definitly does not reflect that.. :?


The discontent you mention came up only after the revamp was quenched. So there's an essential problem here: Only by way of quenching a map could the foundry bring in the outside community to express their opinions on it. I'm reluctant to place blame on anyone in regards to this dilemma, as it has been argued about with every revamp and won't help us with anything here. However, neither can you place blame on the foundry for "forging it through" when nearly all voiced opinions prior to quenching were positive.

As for you concerns with the map, if you can come up with something specific I'll see what I can do with suggestions you might have, but right now unfortunately you haven't given me much to work with.

Bruceswar wrote:When I look at a map I always look at it from the view of I am a brand new person to CC and this is my first time on it. I can verify this quickly by asking for a friend's opinion on this map who does not play CC. Which is what I usually do. I ask him(different people) a series of quick questions and see how many he gets right or wrong or has trouble with. This time he told me those 2 yellow bonuses he could not tell apart much and the map was overall hard to read. I had to agree with him. He also noted that those slate areas were not great either.


So far, nonCCer's I've asked have had problems distinguishing the two yellow continents, and one had an issue with the font. And this is if they had any problems at all. As for the slate continents, to be honest I can't cross my eyes or blur my vision in any way that would make them look the same.

I'm fine with working on the font, and the similarly colored continents, as well as army number visibility issues in tough areas. But I'm very reluctant to revert back to the old color scheme. The current palette works very well aesthetically and thematically with the rest of the map: it works together well with the blue ocean and brown dead land, and of course it's the German colors. But more important than that, I think we need to give the noobs some credit here.

First of all, compare this map with some of the other maps that a noob might start out on. Some of the more complicated maps are exponentially more confusing than this one if we have to take everything from a new-player standpoint. Secondly, we've got two types of noobs here: previously R-I-S-K players, and those that have never played the original game. Seasoned players will have relatively little trouble after understanding the CC interface - I'd venture to say that anyone who has played the game before will look first toward prospective bonuses (boni?) prior to making a move. This leads them straight to the minimap, were they see that there are indeed six zones: after this they'll have little trouble distinguishing them. Then we have the double noobs, who haven't even tried the board game. For them... maybe I'm pessimistic, but I'm pretty sure that they're gonna get confused anyway - so that's kind of a lost cause.

Long story short, I'm confident that we can resolve many of these visibility issues while still keeping the color scheme. Essentially my point buried beneath all the rambling is that though "catering to new players/making maps clear" is important, at some point there's a tradeoff of art vs clarity and IMO reverting the color scheme would add no clarity that can't be added with other methods, and would take the aesthetics down a notch.

Off to bed for me.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:45 am

So out of curiosity why was this one rejected as far as color schemes go??

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I will say this. I am glad you are willing to listen to people and hear them out. Sure maps are works of art, but this is a game and it needs to be a functional work of art. We must remember this is a game and thus it does not have to be 100% accurate as far as geography goes. As long as it plays well there can be whatever in the way for an impassable. Also where are the army circles? That might help with a lot of the confusion.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:14 am

Bruceswar wrote:So out of curiosity why was this one rejected as far as color schemes go??

Image

I will say this. I am glad you are willing to listen to people and hear them out. Sure maps are works of art, but this is a game and it needs to be a functional work of art. We must remember this is a game and thus it does not have to be 100% accurate as far as geography goes. As long as it plays well there can be whatever in the way for an impassable. Also where are the army circles? That might help with a lot of the confusion.


As for that old draft, I believe that a few people wanted the colors on the map in the order of the German flag, and then after that it followed naturally the all the darker colors should be to the right, as the saturated continents there would balance well with the title, minimap, and coat of arms on the left. I believe the positive response at the time was quite large.

Regarding army circles - as per recent criticisms, I'm now working on add army shadows to some or all of the territories. What I mean here is instead of traditional army circles, which are hard to fit in some of the more tight maps like this, I'm going to try a slightly blurred shadow or glow under each army number. This will hopefully make numbers easier to see in areas like Preussen, but won't clutter the map as army circles would.

I can't find a good example of this... though I'm sure it was on some other maps.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby tyche73 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:44 am

i gotta agree with bruce
thats a nice map
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:54 am

tyche73 wrote:i gotta agree with bruce
thats a nice map


The map above, or the original draft on pg. 1 of this thread?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:54 pm

Personally I love the revamp and will actually play the Germany map now. I've got one gripe though: Ewickau is Zwickau in the deployment menu. I think it is supposed to be Zwickau but the font is a weird and looks like a E, so could this be changed to look more like a Z?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:56 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
tyche73 wrote:i gotta agree with bruce
thats a nice map


The map above, or the original draft on pg. 1 of this thread?



I am sure he means the one above which also keeps the German theme.
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