[Official] Germany Revamp

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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby danfrank on Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:32 pm

There is obvious discontent with this map... an antrocity in comparison to the original and yet with disapproval from the community the map still gets forged through.. I b
can begin to pick at all the things i do not like . just to sum it up.. A revamp is supposed to be an improvement and this map definitly does not reflect that.. :?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby samuelc812 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:36 pm

Why is everyone complaining, this map has been moving through the foundry for a long time, everyone has had ample opportunity to voice their opinion of concern for the map, yet no one has.

I suggest people start following especially revamp threads if they enjoy the map being revamped, so that they don't get dissappointed when it does finally go up for beta play. A classic example of why more people should come in the foundry and look at threads that interest them ;)
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:21 pm

samuelc812 wrote:Why is everyone complaining, this map has been moving through the foundry for a long time, everyone has had ample opportunity to voice their opinion of concern for the map, yet no one has.

I suggest people start following especially revamp threads if they enjoy the map being revamped, so that they don't get dissappointed when it does finally go up for beta play. A classic example of why more people should come in the foundry and look at threads that interest them ;)



95% of CC never has visited the forums. Don't you think when a map that is already out is being redone 100% of CC should know? With that said everybody looks at their my games page. Simple messages scrolling at the top would save lots of grief. The way it is now many feel maps are being taken away at the leisure of CC. If such messages were to warn people of a revamp there would be far less out cry. So for now people vote with their play. They boycott maps they do not like or play them very little. This goes into that bin for me and many others.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:40 pm

danfrank wrote:There is obvious discontent with this map... an antrocity in comparison to the original and yet with disapproval from the community the map still gets forged through.. I b
can begin to pick at all the things i do not like . just to sum it up.. A revamp is supposed to be an improvement and this map definitly does not reflect that.. :?


The discontent you mention came up only after the revamp was quenched. So there's an essential problem here: Only by way of quenching a map could the foundry bring in the outside community to express their opinions on it. I'm reluctant to place blame on anyone in regards to this dilemma, as it has been argued about with every revamp and won't help us with anything here. However, neither can you place blame on the foundry for "forging it through" when nearly all voiced opinions prior to quenching were positive.

As for you concerns with the map, if you can come up with something specific I'll see what I can do with suggestions you might have, but right now unfortunately you haven't given me much to work with.

Bruceswar wrote:When I look at a map I always look at it from the view of I am a brand new person to CC and this is my first time on it. I can verify this quickly by asking for a friend's opinion on this map who does not play CC. Which is what I usually do. I ask him(different people) a series of quick questions and see how many he gets right or wrong or has trouble with. This time he told me those 2 yellow bonuses he could not tell apart much and the map was overall hard to read. I had to agree with him. He also noted that those slate areas were not great either.


So far, nonCCer's I've asked have had problems distinguishing the two yellow continents, and one had an issue with the font. And this is if they had any problems at all. As for the slate continents, to be honest I can't cross my eyes or blur my vision in any way that would make them look the same.

I'm fine with working on the font, and the similarly colored continents, as well as army number visibility issues in tough areas. But I'm very reluctant to revert back to the old color scheme. The current palette works very well aesthetically and thematically with the rest of the map: it works together well with the blue ocean and brown dead land, and of course it's the German colors. But more important than that, I think we need to give the noobs some credit here.

First of all, compare this map with some of the other maps that a noob might start out on. Some of the more complicated maps are exponentially more confusing than this one if we have to take everything from a new-player standpoint. Secondly, we've got two types of noobs here: previously R-I-S-K players, and those that have never played the original game. Seasoned players will have relatively little trouble after understanding the CC interface - I'd venture to say that anyone who has played the game before will look first toward prospective bonuses (boni?) prior to making a move. This leads them straight to the minimap, were they see that there are indeed six zones: after this they'll have little trouble distinguishing them. Then we have the double noobs, who haven't even tried the board game. For them... maybe I'm pessimistic, but I'm pretty sure that they're gonna get confused anyway - so that's kind of a lost cause.

Long story short, I'm confident that we can resolve many of these visibility issues while still keeping the color scheme. Essentially my point buried beneath all the rambling is that though "catering to new players/making maps clear" is important, at some point there's a tradeoff of art vs clarity and IMO reverting the color scheme would add no clarity that can't be added with other methods, and would take the aesthetics down a notch.

Off to bed for me.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:45 am

So out of curiosity why was this one rejected as far as color schemes go??

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I will say this. I am glad you are willing to listen to people and hear them out. Sure maps are works of art, but this is a game and it needs to be a functional work of art. We must remember this is a game and thus it does not have to be 100% accurate as far as geography goes. As long as it plays well there can be whatever in the way for an impassable. Also where are the army circles? That might help with a lot of the confusion.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:14 am

Bruceswar wrote:So out of curiosity why was this one rejected as far as color schemes go??

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I will say this. I am glad you are willing to listen to people and hear them out. Sure maps are works of art, but this is a game and it needs to be a functional work of art. We must remember this is a game and thus it does not have to be 100% accurate as far as geography goes. As long as it plays well there can be whatever in the way for an impassable. Also where are the army circles? That might help with a lot of the confusion.


As for that old draft, I believe that a few people wanted the colors on the map in the order of the German flag, and then after that it followed naturally the all the darker colors should be to the right, as the saturated continents there would balance well with the title, minimap, and coat of arms on the left. I believe the positive response at the time was quite large.

Regarding army circles - as per recent criticisms, I'm now working on add army shadows to some or all of the territories. What I mean here is instead of traditional army circles, which are hard to fit in some of the more tight maps like this, I'm going to try a slightly blurred shadow or glow under each army number. This will hopefully make numbers easier to see in areas like Preussen, but won't clutter the map as army circles would.

I can't find a good example of this... though I'm sure it was on some other maps.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby tyche73 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:44 am

i gotta agree with bruce
thats a nice map
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:54 am

tyche73 wrote:i gotta agree with bruce
thats a nice map


The map above, or the original draft on pg. 1 of this thread?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:54 pm

Personally I love the revamp and will actually play the Germany map now. I've got one gripe though: Ewickau is Zwickau in the deployment menu. I think it is supposed to be Zwickau but the font is a weird and looks like a E, so could this be changed to look more like a Z?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:56 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
tyche73 wrote:i gotta agree with bruce
thats a nice map


The map above, or the original draft on pg. 1 of this thread?



I am sure he means the one above which also keeps the German theme.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:43 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Personally I love the revamp and will actually play the Germany map now. I've got one gripe though: Ewickau is Zwickau in the deployment menu. I think it is supposed to be Zwickau but the font is a weird and looks like a E, so could this be changed to look more like a Z?


Ah, I see what you mean. I'll fix all the Z's on the map (it should be Zwickau).
Glad you like the map.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Razz54 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:54 pm

Not an improvement over the original - having the "better" map switched in halfway during a doubles game was further irritating.

Just two negatives: 1) the font is so gothic, I can barely read it. 2) the colors of the diff. bonuses are not as distinguishable as the original map.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby kratos644 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:46 pm

Okay why did we have to change Germany?
Sorry but the new map sucks. The original was way better!
Another map ruined by the revamp. I liked this map but now I can't see me playing it again
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:49 pm

Razz54 wrote:Not an improvement over the original - having the "better" map switched in halfway during a doubles game was further irritating.

Just two negatives: 1) the font is so gothic, I can barely read it. 2) the colors of the diff. bonuses are not as distinguishable as the original map.


Sorry about the sudden switch, though there was unfortunately nothing any of us could really do to make the transition any easier.
Regarding the font, I'm considering alternatives in hopes that we can find a clearer script the nevertheless meshes with the map's theme. And as for the colors, I'll accentuate the differences between similar colors but I still hope to keep the current general color scheme.
Thanks for your voicing your concerns.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Danyael on Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:56 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:So out of curiosity why was this one rejected as far as color schemes go??

Image

I will say this. I am glad you are willing to listen to people and hear them out. Sure maps are works of art, but this is a game and it needs to be a functional work of art. We must remember this is a game and thus it does not have to be 100% accurate as far as geography goes. As long as it plays well there can be whatever in the way for an impassable. Also where are the army circles? That might help with a lot of the confusion.


As for that old draft, I believe that a few people wanted the colors on the map in the order of the German flag, and then after that it followed naturally the all the darker colors should be to the right, as the saturated continents there would balance well with the title, minimap, and coat of arms on the left. I believe the positive response at the time was quite large.

Regarding army circles - as per recent criticisms, I'm now working on add army shadows to some or all of the territories. What I mean here is instead of traditional army circles, which are hard to fit in some of the more tight maps like this, I'm going to try a slightly blurred shadow or glow under each army number. This will hopefully make numbers easier to see in areas like Preussen, but won't clutter the map as army circles would.

I can't find a good example of this... though I'm sure it was on some other maps.


the only problem with this map is the colour are the same for colourblind people mainly the to in the middle but this is so much more legible the the current one even thou the current one is awesome with the dark grundge this one is so much more eye friendly imho
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby lanyards on Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:57 pm

1.5 years for you all to whine and bitch about how this revamp looks.

In my oppinion it looks much better.

Well done Pep. =D>
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby kratos644 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:43 pm

lanyards wrote:1.5 years for you all to whine and bitch about how this revamp looks.

In my oppinion it looks much better.

Well done Pep. =D>

I don't check the cartography forum until I actually find something I have a complaint with ;)
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby sully800 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:29 pm

I do think the appearance of the new map is much better, but I also understand why many people are having difficulty playing on the new one due to the colors.

Let's give pep credit - not only has he done a ton of work on the map itself, but he is also fielding everyone's inquiries and listening and he is going to change the map. Meanwhile, people come after him with pitchforks and many simply complain without offering any constructive criticism. It is fine if there are things you don't like, but help to improve the map instead of simply complaining.

I think you are definitely on the right track here Pep. Light/dark splotches beneath the coordinates, a simpler font, and a greater contrast between the bonus regions will all help to make the map easier to play on. Visually it might go against some of the current principles you tried to capture in your current edition, but if it makes playing easier it is worth it. I'm sure you are very frustrated right now because you would have made any of these changes months ago if people had voiced their opinions then. Alas, that is the nature of the beast when you are dealing with revamps. Even WM gets crap for his Montreal from time to time and that map looks visually identical to the original, just cleaner!
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby owenshooter on Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:34 pm

samuelc812 wrote:I suggest people start following especially revamp threads if they enjoy the map being revamped, so that they don't get dissappointed when it does finally go up for beta play. A classic example of why more people should come in the foundry and look at threads that interest them ;)

it was swapped in for the old germany map. there was no beta transition. the beta was added by lack after jbrettlip voiced his concerns with the suggs forum. soooo, let's keep it all straight. it was not BETA, it simply took over the old map slot, mid-game for me, and is just an abomination... again, are you serious that THE RHINE is not an important natural barrier/landmark of deutschland? i grew up mostly in frankfurt and neu ulm, and have a pretty good grasp of germany, it's culture, and it's landmarks and natural borders... it is embarassing that one of the first things you think of when you think of germany, is not on the map... seriously, no rhine river? and every other concern i have has been voiced by myself and many others countless times, so i will save everyones time and just end this post...-0

p.s.-i thought when they moved the foundry above the general discussions and almost at the top of the forum list, this stuff was going to be avoided with the increased flow of traffic to the foundry... *cough* *cough*
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:43 pm

sully800 wrote:I do think the appearance of the new map is much better, but I also understand why many people are having difficulty playing on the new one due to the colors.

Let's give pep credit - not only has he done a ton of work on the map itself, but he is also fielding everyone's inquiries and listening and he is going to change the map. Meanwhile, people come after him with pitchforks and many simply complain without offering any constructive criticism. It is fine if there are things you don't like, but help to improve the map instead of simply complaining.

I think you are definitely on the right track here Pep. Light/dark splotches beneath the coordinates, a simpler font, and a greater contrast between the bonus regions will all help to make the map easier to play on. Visually it might go against some of the current principles you tried to capture in your current edition, but if it makes playing easier it is worth it. I'm sure you are very frustrated right now because you would have made any of these changes months ago if people had voiced their opinions then. Alas, that is the nature of the beast when you are dealing with revamps. Even WM gets crap for his Montreal from time to time and that map looks visually identical to the original, just cleaner!


Thanks sully. It's a bit tough to alter that "grand artistic vision" which I'd formed in my head, but I think I'll make it ;)

owenshooter wrote:
samuelc812 wrote:I suggest people start following especially revamp threads if they enjoy the map being revamped, so that they don't get dissappointed when it does finally go up for beta play. A classic example of why more people should come in the foundry and look at threads that interest them ;)

it was swapped in for the old germany map. there was no beta transition. the beta was added by lack after jbrettlip voiced his concerns with the suggs forum. soooo, let's keep it all straight. it was not BETA, it simply took over the old map slot, mid-game for me, and is just an abomination... again, are you serious that THE RHINE is not an important natural barrier/landmark of deutschland? i grew up mostly in frankfurt and neu ulm, and have a pretty good grasp of germany, it's culture, and it's landmarks and natural borders... it is embarassing that one of the first things you think of when you think of germany, is not on the map... seriously, no rhine river? and every other concern i have has been voiced by myself and many others countless times, so i will save everyones time and just end this post...-0

p.s.-i thought when they moved the foundry above the general discussions and almost at the top of the forum list, this stuff was going to be avoided with the increased flow of traffic to the foundry... *cough* *cough*


I think sam was inadvertently using the "beta play" term interchangeably with "live play", and that the point of his post in fact had little to do with whether the beta tag was initially used. In any case, I'd rather not start that discussion again, as lack has recognized his original loading of the map to be a mistake:

lack wrote:Actually I intentionally did not load the Germany 2 as Beta. I figured it would confuse people who wanted to play a Germany game if the map suddenly dissappeared from its usual alphabetical spot. But after reading all this controversy, which reminds me that REVAMPS tend to be very controversial, I think I made a mistake. I'm going to set it as Beta right now.

As for not changing the map mid-game (making a REVAMP apply only to new games) - that would either require significant coding or splitting our Germany games into two maps for a very long time which has some undesireable side effects. So although I agree it can be annoying for a map to drastically change mid-game, there is unfortunately not much worth doing about it.


Anyway, I'd venture to say that a map transition like this is going to generate controversy however it is done.
As for the issue with the Rhine, I think my post from the old suggs and bugs thread can clear that up:

pepperonibread wrote:http://cheeseperi.free.fr/Jeopardy/culture/rhine.gif

As you can see from this image, the Rhine makes it's way first along the southwest border of Germany, a place where it would just add clutter to the map. It then does cut through Germany, in the light-red area of the revamped map (Rheinhessen). But it would serve no purpose there either, as it would be cutting straight through a continent. So I think it's fair to say that to add the Rhine to the map, however important a river it is, would be a useless addition - unless you want to change the map's basic gameplay.

And that's honestly the crux of the problem (this problem, and many other issues dealing with accuracy). I'll state right out that this map isn't an accurate portrayal of Germany. However, taking into account the fact that no gameplay could be changed whatsoever, I can certainly say that this map is much more accurate than the previous Germany 1.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby sully800 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:02 pm

Yeah, the complaint about the Rhine should be a complaint for the original map. Revamped artists are tied to the same gameplay of the original which is one of the reasons why it is such a difficult process. The original map shows the Rhine, but not in an accurate or sensible way. In fact the large inaccuracies of the original are one of the main reasons people wanted to have it revamped!
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby waseemalim on Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:58 am

The new map looks gross. It hurts my eyes. Really.

I dont see how having similar colors for bonuses is even slightly helpful. I mean, there are better ways to symbolize the flag of germany.

I am not expecting feedback on this, just voicing my concern. I really dont have the time to check all foundry posts, so am dissenting only after I have seen the map.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby danfrank on Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:23 am

pepperonibread wrote:
danfrank wrote:There is obvious discontent with this map... an antrocity in comparison to the original and yet with disapproval from the community the map still gets forged through.. I b
can begin to pick at all the things i do not like . just to sum it up.. A revamp is supposed to be an improvement and this map definitly does not reflect that.. :?


The discontent you mention came up only after the revamp was quenched. So there's an essential problem here: Only by way of quenching a map could the foundry bring in the outside community to express their opinions on it. I'm reluctant to place blame on anyone in regards to this dilemma, as it has been argued about with every revamp and won't help us with anything here. However, neither can you place blame on the foundry for "forging it through" when nearly all voiced opinions prior to quenching were positive.

As for you concerns with the map, if you can come up with something specific I'll see what I can do with suggestions you might have, but right now unfortunately you haven't given me much to work with.

Bruceswar wrote:When I look at a map I always look at it from the view of I am a brand new person to CC and this is my first time on it. I can verify this quickly by asking for a friend's opinion on this map who does not play CC. Which is what I usually do. I ask him(different people) a series of quick questions and see how many he gets right or wrong or has trouble with. This time he told me those 2 yellow bonuses he could not tell apart much and the map was overall hard to read. I had to agree with him. He also noted that those slate areas were not great either.


So far, nonCCer's I've asked have had problems distinguishing the two yellow continents, and one had an issue with the font. And this is if they had any problems at all. As for the slate continents, to be honest I can't cross my eyes or blur my vision in any way that would make them look the same.

I'm fine with working on the font, and the similarly colored continents, as well as army number visibility issues in tough areas. But I'm very reluctant to revert back to the old color scheme. The current palette works very well aesthetically and thematically with the rest of the map: it works together well with the blue ocean and brown dead land, and of course it's the German colors. But more important than that, I think we need to give the noobs some credit here.

First of all, compare this map with some of the other maps that a noob might start out on. Some of the more complicated maps are exponentially more confusing than this one if we have to take everything from a new-player standpoint. Secondly, we've got two types of noobs here: previously R-I-S-K players, and those that have never played the original game. Seasoned players will have relatively little trouble after understanding the CC interface - I'd venture to say that anyone who has played the game before will look first toward prospective bonuses (boni?) prior to making a move. This leads them straight to the minimap, were they see that there are indeed six zones: after this they'll have little trouble distinguishing them. Then we have the double noobs, who haven't even tried the board game. For them... maybe I'm pessimistic, but I'm pretty sure that they're gonna get confused anyway - so that's kind of a lost cause.

Long story short, I'm confident that we can resolve many of these visibility issues while still keeping the color scheme. Essentially my point buried beneath all the rambling is that though "catering to new players/making maps clear" is important, at some point there's a tradeoff of art vs clarity and IMO reverting the color scheme would add no clarity that can't be added with other methods, and would take the aesthetics down a notch.

Off to bed for me.



Well all i did was scan the thread and not read to much into.. Well for the first 17 pages the foundry regulars were in there tickling your balls and patting you on the back.. It was not until bruceswar comment on page 17 that i saw a serious dislike for this map.. And then you did not even respond to him , it appears that another individual fought the war with him over the issues for you. your a coward in my book . The map is terrible , the colors are gross the territory labeling is hideous and the mountains are elementary. is that specific enough for you? i wonder why this map sat dead for so long. with the first cries of forge coming in november of 08.. :-s
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby danfrank on Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:29 am

To Boot the brish isles revamp was truly a revamp , They took the original image and tweeked it. Now thats a revamp. The same with brazil another fine revamp. This map here is a NEW map all in itself. Nothing from the original image is left... I am curious what the original mapmaker has to say about this. you put his name on it and yet nothing from his original image is revised ..... :sick:
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:55 am

danfrank wrote:Well all i did was scan the thread and not read to much into.. Well for the first 17 pages the foundry regulars were in there tickling your balls and patting you on the back.. It was not until bruceswar comment on page 17 that i saw a serious dislike for this map.. And then you did not even respond to him , it appears that another individual fought the war with him over the issues for you. your a coward in my book . The map is terrible , the colors are gross the territory labeling is hideous and the mountains are elementary. is that specific enough for you? i wonder why this map sat dead for so long. with the first cries of forge coming in november of 08.. :-s


Let's try to get our facts a little straighter. Take the comment Brucewar first posted on pg. 17. Look just a bit farther down the page, and you'll see that I posted a response to him just two hours later:

pepperonibread wrote:Well, Incandenza and others hit virtually everything, I'll add to two things though. Foremost, no gameplay changes are being made to the Germany map, as I said earlier (see the "About the Revamp" quote in the first post of this thread for more info). That misconception seems to be where much of this revamp opposition springs from. All changes to territory names, shapes, and borders have been made to increase accuracy while preserving the original gameplay.
The other thing you mention is a revamp's effect on the site. I honestly believe that revamps are better in the long run for CC. The benefits of having enticing and/or interesting graphics on CC will almost certainly outweigh a few old members portraying the site in a negative light.
Last, for your individual comments:
1. This color scheme was decided on due to a certain lack of German flavor in the original draft of the revamp. It's been adjusted throughout this thread - to be frank, I'd venture to say that this aspect of the image has really already been agreed upon, save for some minor adjustments.
2. Which spot are you referring to? The territories Osnabruck and Munster do not border, if this is what you're talking about I could scoot the mountains over a bit to make the impassable more clear.
3. These were switched for accuracy's sake.
4. This revamp would replace the current Germany map.


Next you had the concern that this map had been sitting around since last year. I'm a student, so time for making updates during that period was unfortunately few and far between. That's why the map was only finally quenched this summer.

Regarding your concerns with the graphics, in the next update I'm hoping to adjust the colors and find a better font for the territories, both of which should clear up some of the current visibility issues.

danfrank wrote:To Boot the brish isles revamp was truly a revamp , They took the original image and tweeked it. Now thats a revamp. The same with brazil another fine revamp. This map here is a NEW map all in itself. Nothing from the original image is left... I am curious what the original mapmaker has to say about this. you put his name on it and yet nothing from his original image is revised ..... :sick:


This revamp was create in an effort to fix two aspects of the old image:
1. Graphics
2. Accuracy
Of course, the changes to graphics are obvious. However, I think the increased accuracy of the image is what gives some the impression that this is an entirely new map. What you see is mountains and rivers moved around, borders shifted, and names added and switched. These changes were made to make the map truer to the actual German territory it represents. Nevertheless, under these overlying changes the gameplay structure is exactly the same. All the continent bonuses and territory connections are identical to the previous map. Essentially, though they look different on the outside, the "skeletons" of the two maps still remain the same. Hopefully this post I made a while back should clear up anything else:

pepperonibread wrote:Hey everybody. More than other maps, revamps like this have certain restrictions on how they are developed. One of the most important of these is that a revamp cannot change the "gameplay" of the map being revamped. Basically, which territories border which other territories and which continents they are contained in must remain the same as in the original map.

Take the dark gray continent Preussen (the red continent Prussia in the old map). If you take a look at the two maps, you can see that each territory on the old map directly corresponds to one territory on the new map. For example, Potsdam on the old map, bordering three territories of other continents and two in its own, is equivalent to Magdeburg on the new map, which has the same border configuration. Dresden on the old map, which borders three territories in its own continent, corresponds to Potsdam on the new map, which also has these borders.

Here are a few more examples to clarify:
Old map's Donrath = New map's Koblenz
Old map's Erfurt = New map's Zwickau
Old map's Augsburg = New map's Bayreuth
Old map's Niedersachsen = New map's Bremen
etc.

In this way, while names have been changed and border shapes have been altered, the gameplay of the map remains identical. So if I want to make the map more accurate, I have to make sure that there are no gameplay changes while I edit it.

If everyone could try and make sure that their suggestions don't break any of these "rules", that would be great :)


Lastly, you mention the British Isles revamp as an example of a "true revamp". But your original comments on the project say otherwise:

danfrank wrote:I have to agree.. They have ruined the british isle map and next there going to destroy the germany map..


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