[Official] Germany Revamp

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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby danfrank on Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:32 pm

There is obvious discontent with this map... an antrocity in comparison to the original and yet with disapproval from the community the map still gets forged through.. I b
can begin to pick at all the things i do not like . just to sum it up.. A revamp is supposed to be an improvement and this map definitly does not reflect that.. :?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby samuelc812 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:36 pm

Why is everyone complaining, this map has been moving through the foundry for a long time, everyone has had ample opportunity to voice their opinion of concern for the map, yet no one has.

I suggest people start following especially revamp threads if they enjoy the map being revamped, so that they don't get dissappointed when it does finally go up for beta play. A classic example of why more people should come in the foundry and look at threads that interest them ;)
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:21 pm

samuelc812 wrote:Why is everyone complaining, this map has been moving through the foundry for a long time, everyone has had ample opportunity to voice their opinion of concern for the map, yet no one has.

I suggest people start following especially revamp threads if they enjoy the map being revamped, so that they don't get dissappointed when it does finally go up for beta play. A classic example of why more people should come in the foundry and look at threads that interest them ;)



95% of CC never has visited the forums. Don't you think when a map that is already out is being redone 100% of CC should know? With that said everybody looks at their my games page. Simple messages scrolling at the top would save lots of grief. The way it is now many feel maps are being taken away at the leisure of CC. If such messages were to warn people of a revamp there would be far less out cry. So for now people vote with their play. They boycott maps they do not like or play them very little. This goes into that bin for me and many others.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:40 pm

danfrank wrote:There is obvious discontent with this map... an antrocity in comparison to the original and yet with disapproval from the community the map still gets forged through.. I b
can begin to pick at all the things i do not like . just to sum it up.. A revamp is supposed to be an improvement and this map definitly does not reflect that.. :?


The discontent you mention came up only after the revamp was quenched. So there's an essential problem here: Only by way of quenching a map could the foundry bring in the outside community to express their opinions on it. I'm reluctant to place blame on anyone in regards to this dilemma, as it has been argued about with every revamp and won't help us with anything here. However, neither can you place blame on the foundry for "forging it through" when nearly all voiced opinions prior to quenching were positive.

As for you concerns with the map, if you can come up with something specific I'll see what I can do with suggestions you might have, but right now unfortunately you haven't given me much to work with.

Bruceswar wrote:When I look at a map I always look at it from the view of I am a brand new person to CC and this is my first time on it. I can verify this quickly by asking for a friend's opinion on this map who does not play CC. Which is what I usually do. I ask him(different people) a series of quick questions and see how many he gets right or wrong or has trouble with. This time he told me those 2 yellow bonuses he could not tell apart much and the map was overall hard to read. I had to agree with him. He also noted that those slate areas were not great either.


So far, nonCCer's I've asked have had problems distinguishing the two yellow continents, and one had an issue with the font. And this is if they had any problems at all. As for the slate continents, to be honest I can't cross my eyes or blur my vision in any way that would make them look the same.

I'm fine with working on the font, and the similarly colored continents, as well as army number visibility issues in tough areas. But I'm very reluctant to revert back to the old color scheme. The current palette works very well aesthetically and thematically with the rest of the map: it works together well with the blue ocean and brown dead land, and of course it's the German colors. But more important than that, I think we need to give the noobs some credit here.

First of all, compare this map with some of the other maps that a noob might start out on. Some of the more complicated maps are exponentially more confusing than this one if we have to take everything from a new-player standpoint. Secondly, we've got two types of noobs here: previously R-I-S-K players, and those that have never played the original game. Seasoned players will have relatively little trouble after understanding the CC interface - I'd venture to say that anyone who has played the game before will look first toward prospective bonuses (boni?) prior to making a move. This leads them straight to the minimap, were they see that there are indeed six zones: after this they'll have little trouble distinguishing them. Then we have the double noobs, who haven't even tried the board game. For them... maybe I'm pessimistic, but I'm pretty sure that they're gonna get confused anyway - so that's kind of a lost cause.

Long story short, I'm confident that we can resolve many of these visibility issues while still keeping the color scheme. Essentially my point buried beneath all the rambling is that though "catering to new players/making maps clear" is important, at some point there's a tradeoff of art vs clarity and IMO reverting the color scheme would add no clarity that can't be added with other methods, and would take the aesthetics down a notch.

Off to bed for me.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:45 am

So out of curiosity why was this one rejected as far as color schemes go??

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I will say this. I am glad you are willing to listen to people and hear them out. Sure maps are works of art, but this is a game and it needs to be a functional work of art. We must remember this is a game and thus it does not have to be 100% accurate as far as geography goes. As long as it plays well there can be whatever in the way for an impassable. Also where are the army circles? That might help with a lot of the confusion.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:14 am

Bruceswar wrote:So out of curiosity why was this one rejected as far as color schemes go??

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I will say this. I am glad you are willing to listen to people and hear them out. Sure maps are works of art, but this is a game and it needs to be a functional work of art. We must remember this is a game and thus it does not have to be 100% accurate as far as geography goes. As long as it plays well there can be whatever in the way for an impassable. Also where are the army circles? That might help with a lot of the confusion.


As for that old draft, I believe that a few people wanted the colors on the map in the order of the German flag, and then after that it followed naturally the all the darker colors should be to the right, as the saturated continents there would balance well with the title, minimap, and coat of arms on the left. I believe the positive response at the time was quite large.

Regarding army circles - as per recent criticisms, I'm now working on add army shadows to some or all of the territories. What I mean here is instead of traditional army circles, which are hard to fit in some of the more tight maps like this, I'm going to try a slightly blurred shadow or glow under each army number. This will hopefully make numbers easier to see in areas like Preussen, but won't clutter the map as army circles would.

I can't find a good example of this... though I'm sure it was on some other maps.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby tyche73 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:44 am

i gotta agree with bruce
thats a nice map
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:54 am

tyche73 wrote:i gotta agree with bruce
thats a nice map


The map above, or the original draft on pg. 1 of this thread?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:54 pm

Personally I love the revamp and will actually play the Germany map now. I've got one gripe though: Ewickau is Zwickau in the deployment menu. I think it is supposed to be Zwickau but the font is a weird and looks like a E, so could this be changed to look more like a Z?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:56 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
tyche73 wrote:i gotta agree with bruce
thats a nice map


The map above, or the original draft on pg. 1 of this thread?



I am sure he means the one above which also keeps the German theme.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:43 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Personally I love the revamp and will actually play the Germany map now. I've got one gripe though: Ewickau is Zwickau in the deployment menu. I think it is supposed to be Zwickau but the font is a weird and looks like a E, so could this be changed to look more like a Z?


Ah, I see what you mean. I'll fix all the Z's on the map (it should be Zwickau).
Glad you like the map.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Razz54 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:54 pm

Not an improvement over the original - having the "better" map switched in halfway during a doubles game was further irritating.

Just two negatives: 1) the font is so gothic, I can barely read it. 2) the colors of the diff. bonuses are not as distinguishable as the original map.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby kratos644 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:46 pm

Okay why did we have to change Germany?
Sorry but the new map sucks. The original was way better!
Another map ruined by the revamp. I liked this map but now I can't see me playing it again
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:49 pm

Razz54 wrote:Not an improvement over the original - having the "better" map switched in halfway during a doubles game was further irritating.

Just two negatives: 1) the font is so gothic, I can barely read it. 2) the colors of the diff. bonuses are not as distinguishable as the original map.


Sorry about the sudden switch, though there was unfortunately nothing any of us could really do to make the transition any easier.
Regarding the font, I'm considering alternatives in hopes that we can find a clearer script the nevertheless meshes with the map's theme. And as for the colors, I'll accentuate the differences between similar colors but I still hope to keep the current general color scheme.
Thanks for your voicing your concerns.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Danyael on Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:56 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:So out of curiosity why was this one rejected as far as color schemes go??

Image

I will say this. I am glad you are willing to listen to people and hear them out. Sure maps are works of art, but this is a game and it needs to be a functional work of art. We must remember this is a game and thus it does not have to be 100% accurate as far as geography goes. As long as it plays well there can be whatever in the way for an impassable. Also where are the army circles? That might help with a lot of the confusion.


As for that old draft, I believe that a few people wanted the colors on the map in the order of the German flag, and then after that it followed naturally the all the darker colors should be to the right, as the saturated continents there would balance well with the title, minimap, and coat of arms on the left. I believe the positive response at the time was quite large.

Regarding army circles - as per recent criticisms, I'm now working on add army shadows to some or all of the territories. What I mean here is instead of traditional army circles, which are hard to fit in some of the more tight maps like this, I'm going to try a slightly blurred shadow or glow under each army number. This will hopefully make numbers easier to see in areas like Preussen, but won't clutter the map as army circles would.

I can't find a good example of this... though I'm sure it was on some other maps.


the only problem with this map is the colour are the same for colourblind people mainly the to in the middle but this is so much more legible the the current one even thou the current one is awesome with the dark grundge this one is so much more eye friendly imho
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