[Official] Germany Revamp

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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:23 pm

Thanks dan. Seems like we've made it to some sort of understanding ;)
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Gamefreakguy on Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:25 pm

I agree with those that were of the opinion that there are better ways to represent the colors of Germany than making 3 sets of similarly colored regions... it's just not a good idea. If they were shifted around like the other version of the map that Bruce posted, it would be acceptable.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby jghost7 on Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:20 pm

tyche73 wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
image


i posted this to show what i mean about about not clear
i hope this helps to solve the issue

please note green 5 up north and yellow 7 on nurnberg just as examples because they actually effected my next move



Wow, thats how it looks on mine...
;)

wish i would have thought of that...
saves some explaining doesnt it...

I cant see any of the borders up top....
;)

Cant wait to see the next edition...

Thanks for listening pep,
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby sully800 on Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:14 pm

I can see the borders perfectly in that screen capture as I can on my own games. I reiterate this point because it really puzzles me that people cannot see the lines at all in the dark region, when on my screen they are as clear as any of the other borders. #-o You guys must have some wacky contrast on your monitors or it is indeed a form of color blindness. Nonetheless, it causes a real (and repeatable) problem on the map.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby the.killing.44 on Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:16 pm

sully800 wrote:I can see the borders perfectly in that screen capture as I can on my own games. I reiterate this point because it really puzzles me that people cannot see the lines at all in the dark region, when on my screen they are as clear as any of the other borders. #-o You guys must have some wacky contrast on your monitors or it is indeed a form of color blindness. Nonetheless, it causes a real (and repeatable) problem on the map.

Yeah I'm with sully; I don't see any issue with that screen shot :?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:00 pm

If someone's screen settings are screwed up somehow, you shouldn't be able to show it in a screenshot. Because the pixel data each computer gets and sends is the same, only a screen with bad settings would display the image differently.
So the screen cap doesn't help unfortunately. A person having problems would have to record whatever their settings are and post it so we can get an idea of the problem. But if you can do that, then you should be able to adjust your own settings anyway...
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:20 pm

Gamefreakguy wrote:I agree with those that were of the opinion that there are better ways to represent the colors of Germany than making 3 sets of similarly colored regions... it's just not a good idea. If they were shifted around like the other version of the map that Bruce posted, it would be acceptable.


I'm going to try to accentuate the differences between the similar colored continents first, however if the bonuses are still not clear you suggestion is my other option.
Thanks for your comments.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby tyche73 on Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:28 am

the.killing.44 wrote:
sully800 wrote:I can see the borders perfectly in that screen capture as I can on my own games. I reiterate this point because it really puzzles me that people cannot see the lines at all in the dark region, when on my screen they are as clear as any of the other borders. #-o You guys must have some wacky contrast on your monitors or it is indeed a form of color blindness. Nonetheless, it causes a real (and repeatable) problem on the map.

Yeah I'm with sully; I don't see any issue with that screen shot :?



Sully and killing i didn't post because i like the sound of my own voice.
I posted because i can't read it clearly, i have trouble seeing nearly all of yellows terry's
and the darker colours in the black area.
It wouldn't bother only for the fact that i like the map, had it been a map i would only play now and then i wouldn't waste my time posting.
I really liked the version that you got rid of, i appreciate that pepper has spent alot of time doing this one and the map i liked isn't coming back.
So rather than throwing myself on the floor and kicking my hands and legs, i'm putting my concerns in this forum
only to have it repeatly stated, ''i don't see the problem'',''it's crystal clear'', ''colour blind'' ,''bad monitor''........
So what's my alternative??? maybe just move on, play other maps i can read,and maybe in clan wars with the random maps coming up just hope i don't get unlucky???
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:46 am

A minor point. The "Z" in Ziweche looks a LOT like an "E". Rather confusing to those of us in "later years" ;)
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:07 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:A minor point. The "Z" in Ziweche looks a LOT like an "E". Rather confusing to those of us in "later years" ;)


Alright thanks. I'll erase the middle line in the next update (if I don't just change the font).
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:40 pm

tyche73 wrote:
the.killing.44 wrote:
sully800 wrote:I can see the borders perfectly in that screen capture as I can on my own games. I reiterate this point because it really puzzles me that people cannot see the lines at all in the dark region, when on my screen they are as clear as any of the other borders. #-o You guys must have some wacky contrast on your monitors or it is indeed a form of color blindness. Nonetheless, it causes a real (and repeatable) problem on the map.

Yeah I'm with sully; I don't see any issue with that screen shot :?



Sully and killing i didn't post because i like the sound of my own voice.
I posted because i can't read it clearly, i have trouble seeing nearly all of yellows terry's
and the darker colours in the black area.
It wouldn't bother only for the fact that i like the map, had it been a map i would only play now and then i wouldn't waste my time posting.
I really liked the version that you got rid of, i appreciate that pepper has spent alot of time doing this one and the map i liked isn't coming back.
So rather than throwing myself on the floor and kicking my hands and legs, i'm putting my concerns in this forum
only to have it repeatly stated, ''i don't see the problem'',''it's crystal clear'', ''colour blind'' ,''bad monitor''........
So what's my alternative??? maybe just move on, play other maps i can read,and maybe in clan wars with the random maps coming up just hope i don't get unlucky???


I think we're just trying to figure out the source of the visibility problem. It'll be easier to fix if we know if it's a vision issue, or a monitor problem, or whatever else. In any case, I'll try to resolve it as mush as possible in the next update.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby RjBeals on Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:53 pm

take s digital picture (with the flash off) of your monitor, then post it here. There's no other way.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby MrBenn on Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:16 pm

The issue of visibility and legibility are important. As far as I can tell, the amendments that are now being mooted are:
1. Some form of circles/patches to assist reading of army numbers
2. Slight alteration of region colours
3. Possible change of typeface to assist legibility

Thanks to everybody for raising your concerns, and your patience - the attitude of pepperonibread indicates that where concerns are legitimate and non-subjective, they will be addressed appropriately.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:12 pm

MrBenn wrote:The issue of visibility and legibility are important. As far as I can tell, the amendments that are now being mooted are:
1. Some form of circles/patches to assist reading of army numbers
2. Slight alteration of region colours
3. Possible change of typeface to assist legibility

Thanks to everybody for raising your concerns, and your patience - the attitude of pepperonibread indicates that where concerns are legitimate and non-subjective, they will be addressed appropriately.


That basically sums it up I think. I'll try to get working on this asap.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Viper3910 on Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:54 pm

Can you please keep the original Germany map for those PREMIUM users who like it.
I don't like the revamp at all and won't be playing it.

Thank you.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:01 am

Viper3910 wrote:Can you please keep the original Germany map for those PREMIUM users who like it.
I don't like the revamp at all and won't be playing it.

Thank you.


Sorry but I don't think that will ever be an option; the site's creator has never allowed the revamp and original to stay online at the same time.
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Re: [Official] Germany DESTRUCTION - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby owenshooter on Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:16 pm

pepperonibread wrote:Sorry but I don't think that will ever be an option; the site's creator has never allowed the revamp and original to stay online at the same time.

it's a shame, because the original is far superior... i just truly dislike this map and have no idea why this was done... speaking to other members that were actually in the thread for this revamp, they said they were run out of the thread for disagreeing with the revamp, etc... seems to be the general atmosphere one runs into within the forums... disagree, and you are an ass... agree, and you are welcome... this revamp is just poorly executed and in no way superior to the original. it should be scrapped. they were willing to scrap the perfect germany map, so why not scrap the inferior replacement... i appreciate all the hard work, but sometimes hard work does not equate success... it was a great effort, but it truly falls short.. i have already listed my problems/concerns with the map previously, and am agreeing with all those that have other faults with the map... maybe everyone should step back and consider putting back the original, even if the foundry gets it's feelings hurt.-0
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby sully800 on Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:47 pm

I don't believe anyone wishes to make you or anyone else feel unwelcome here Owen. My experience with the foundry is that criticisms of maps are very well received if there is a justified reason and an alternate solution presented. Everyone wishes to make the best map possible, so while you can't make everyone 100% happy you can usually create a product that everyone is satisfied with.

Now there have been several issues with clarity in this Germany revamp, because for whatever reason people cannot distinguish the regions and borders. Pep has already committed to making these changes and hopefully it will be an improvement for everyone. Additionally the text is a bit too fancy for some to read, and that one I can understand - it has a nice flair, but is much harder to read quickly than a plain font. I'm sure that an adequate compromise can be reached for this point as well.

The improvements of this map over the original have already been stated (namely increased accuracy and crisper details). I certainly understand why the simple and clean look of the old map appeals to many people, but many prefer the new one which is why compromises must always be reached.

The reason that both maps cannot be used is to limit confusion - especially in this case where the structure of the map is the same but the territories are labeled differently. Players would need to have different naming schemes for the different maps which would cause a lot of confusion in game chat and in the game log so it doesn't seem possible. The same idea was mentioned for the Canada revamp and others in my memory as well - I know that changes can be hard to get used to, but in the end constructive criticism will create a final product with which everyone can at least be satisfied.
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Re: [Official] Germany DESTRUCTION - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby MrBenn on Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:58 am

owenshooter wrote:...they were willing to scrap the perfect inaccurate germany map, so why not scrap the inferior more accurate replacement...

Perfection is entirely subjective, and virtually unachievable. Accuracy is something we can aim towards ;-)
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update Pg. 20 w/ XML [I,Gp,Gr]

Postby Seulessliathan on Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:22 am

Seulessliathan wrote:wasn´t there a river in the north of Münster? Rhein isn´t there exactly , but .... mountains? There aren´t any mountains around. Can you change this back to river please? (although the river is wrong, because there are only small rivers, and the Rhein is elsewhere, but mountains doesn´t exist there.


no response? mountains between Münster and Osnabrück are just nonsense .... if you want, you can put in a wall of fog or whatever .... but why mountains? there aren´t even small hills.

and Rheinhessen is a strange name, never heard it anywhere, perhaps you better call it Westdeutschland? Rhein is the river, not the name for an area like Hessen. (and Rhein doesn´t go through Hessen) you combined the districts Rheinland-Pfalz & Hessen.
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Re: [Official] Germany DESTRUCTION - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby owenshooter on Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:29 am

MrBenn wrote:
owenshooter wrote:...they were willing to scrap the perfect inaccurate germany map, so why not scrap the inferior more accurate replacement...

Perfection is entirely subjective, and virtually unachievable. Accuracy is something we can aim towards ;-)

soooo, that is why THE RHINE was removed? i mean, that isn't a major feature of germany's landscape at all, is it... the map is in no way better than the original, hard work does not equate good work. just bring back the original.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby lord voldemort on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:03 am

in my personal opinion i dont like the new map
i find the bonus colours annoying..i understand its to represent the germany flag but i think they are too close together
graphically i just dont enjoy it compared to the other map
as for accuracy i dont know enough to comment
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Re: [Official] Germany DESTRUCTION - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Seulessliathan on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:09 am

owenshooter wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
owenshooter wrote:...they were willing to scrap the perfect inaccurate germany map, so why not scrap the inferior more accurate replacement...

Perfection is entirely subjective, and virtually unachievable. Accuracy is something we can aim towards ;-)

soooo, that is why THE RHINE was removed? i mean, that isn't a major feature of germany's landscape at all, is it... the map is in no way better than the original, hard work does not equate good work. just bring back the original.


indeed, removing the biggest river, adding mountains were no mountains exist .... doesn´t make much sense to me. Gameplay is as good or bad as before, still a standard map. Only improvement i can see are the terretory names, but there are same which could be changed - like the area Rheinhessen .... that´s not an existing name, Rhein has nothing to do with Hessen, it´s just near, and you deleted the Rhein from your map for no reason.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby MrBenn on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:41 am

Instead of talking about problems, let's talk about solutions. ;)

Pepperonibread is already working on possible fixes to the issue of legibility/visibility of names/armies/borders, so let's not speculate further until we can see what alterations have been made.

As has already been mentioned, the course of the Rhine doesn't run a convenient course to maintain identical gameplay, which is why it isn't on the map. The mountains there were added to ensure integrity of gameplay mechanics - if there is a viable alternative, then suggestions would be welcome - perhaps there's a tributary of the Mosel that would work?

As for the name of the region currently labelled Rhinehessen, what would be more suitable? 'Rhineland'? 'Rhine-Westphalia'? 'Rhineland-Westphalia'? Would any of these be more appropriate?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:30 pm

owenshooter wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
owenshooter wrote:...they were willing to scrap the perfect inaccurate germany map, so why not scrap the inferior more accurate replacement...

Perfection is entirely subjective, and virtually unachievable. Accuracy is something we can aim towards ;-)

soooo, that is why THE RHINE was removed? i mean, that isn't a major feature of germany's landscape at all, is it... the map is in no way better than the original, hard work does not equate good work. just bring back the original.


Again, here is the explanation as to why the Rhine was left out:

pepperonibread wrote:http://cheeseperi.free.fr/Jeopardy/culture/rhine.gif

As you can see from this image, the Rhine makes it's way first along the southwest border of Germany, a place where it would just add clutter to the map. It then does cut through Germany, in the light-red area of the revamped map (Rheinhessen). But it would serve no purpose there either, as it would be cutting straight through a continent. So I think it's fair to say that to add the Rhine to the map, however important a river it is, would be a useless addition - unless you want to change the map's basic gameplay.

And that's honestly the crux of the problem (this problem, and many other issues dealing with accuracy). I'll state right out that this map isn't an accurate portrayal of Germany. However, taking into account the fact that no gameplay could be changed whatsoever, I can certainly say that this map is much more accurate than the previous Germany 1.


Though granted, you could still say that without the Rhine this map seems now less accurate than the former map. But here's a quick list I came up with regarding inaccuracies in Germany 1:

1. The continent borders to a degree arbitrary, and do not seem to correspond with the borders of German states.
2. No umlauts are used.
3. In some cases, the original German names are used (Köln, Nürnberg, etc.), while elsewhere the Anglicized versions are displayed (Bavaria, Prussia, etc.).
4. No real river runs between the continents of "Rheinland" and "Hessen".
5. Hemeln on the map is merely a borough with a population of only 960.
6. Dresden is located in the state of Saxony, though on the map it is a part of the "Prussia" continent.
7. The territories of Bavaria, Hessen, Sachsen, and Niedersachsen are names of German states, not cities or small regions (this is akin to having, for example, a territory called "Ohio" within a continent also called Ohio).
8. No real river runs between the continents of ""Prussia" and "East Germany".
9. The territory Halberstadt is far displaced from the actual location of the city.
10. Augsburg is located in southern Bavaria, while on the map it is significantly more northern.
11. Bamberg is a town with population approx. 70,000, there are better areas that this territory could've been name for (Wurzburg).
12. I can't even find Donrath on Wikipedia; I think this was supposed to be the town of Lohmar (which is only a small area anyway).

I believe that most, if not all, of these problems were fixed in the Germany Revamp. Probably most important of these remedies was the changes to border shape. The current borders line up much better with German political divisions than in the old map.

Knowing this, I still hold that this revamp is significantly more accurate the the old map, especially after taking into account the restriction of gameplay. I will of course continue to field suggestions on how to increase the accuracy even more, however we have to keep in mind that not everything will be possible due to the necessity of keeping gameplay identical.

As for individual concerns about accuracy:

Seulessliathan wrote:
Seulessliathan wrote:wasn´t there a river in the north of Münster? Rhein isn´t there exactly , but .... mountains? There aren´t any mountains around. Can you change this back to river please? (although the river is wrong, because there are only small rivers, and the Rhein is elsewhere, but mountains doesn´t exist there.


no response? mountains between Münster and Osnabrück are just nonsense .... if you want, you can put in a wall of fog or whatever .... but why mountains? there aren´t even small hills.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... d_topo.jpg

Linked above is an elevation map of the area. From this, I gather that there are some highlands at least on the eastern part of the border. There are also several rivers in the area, though none run through along that line. I guess your suggestion is to replace the mountains with a river? We can't have a wall of fog or anything like that, but as the rivers aren't perfectly accurate on this map anyway I suppose that that will work.

Seulessliathan wrote:and Rheinhessen is a strange name, never heard it anywhere, perhaps you better call it Westdeutschland? Rhein is the river, not the name for an area like Hessen. (and Rhein doesn´t go through Hessen) you combined the districts Rheinland-Pfalz & Hessen.


After a bit of Wiki browsing, it seems like Westdeutschland is the best alternative. I believe the continent was originally named Rheinhessen for this wine region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinhesse ... _region%29
But I see now that that's a much too small area to represent the whole continent.
Only one concern: I don't know anything about this really, but the name "Westdeutschland" doesn't hold any touchy Cold War connotations does it?

Anyway, thanks for your comments everyone. Sorry it took me so long to respond.
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