[Official] Germany Revamp

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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:01 am

Viper3910 wrote:Can you please keep the original Germany map for those PREMIUM users who like it.
I don't like the revamp at all and won't be playing it.

Thank you.


Sorry but I don't think that will ever be an option; the site's creator has never allowed the revamp and original to stay online at the same time.
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Re: [Official] Germany DESTRUCTION - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby owenshooter on Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:16 pm

pepperonibread wrote:Sorry but I don't think that will ever be an option; the site's creator has never allowed the revamp and original to stay online at the same time.

it's a shame, because the original is far superior... i just truly dislike this map and have no idea why this was done... speaking to other members that were actually in the thread for this revamp, they said they were run out of the thread for disagreeing with the revamp, etc... seems to be the general atmosphere one runs into within the forums... disagree, and you are an ass... agree, and you are welcome... this revamp is just poorly executed and in no way superior to the original. it should be scrapped. they were willing to scrap the perfect germany map, so why not scrap the inferior replacement... i appreciate all the hard work, but sometimes hard work does not equate success... it was a great effort, but it truly falls short.. i have already listed my problems/concerns with the map previously, and am agreeing with all those that have other faults with the map... maybe everyone should step back and consider putting back the original, even if the foundry gets it's feelings hurt.-0
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby sully800 on Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:47 pm

I don't believe anyone wishes to make you or anyone else feel unwelcome here Owen. My experience with the foundry is that criticisms of maps are very well received if there is a justified reason and an alternate solution presented. Everyone wishes to make the best map possible, so while you can't make everyone 100% happy you can usually create a product that everyone is satisfied with.

Now there have been several issues with clarity in this Germany revamp, because for whatever reason people cannot distinguish the regions and borders. Pep has already committed to making these changes and hopefully it will be an improvement for everyone. Additionally the text is a bit too fancy for some to read, and that one I can understand - it has a nice flair, but is much harder to read quickly than a plain font. I'm sure that an adequate compromise can be reached for this point as well.

The improvements of this map over the original have already been stated (namely increased accuracy and crisper details). I certainly understand why the simple and clean look of the old map appeals to many people, but many prefer the new one which is why compromises must always be reached.

The reason that both maps cannot be used is to limit confusion - especially in this case where the structure of the map is the same but the territories are labeled differently. Players would need to have different naming schemes for the different maps which would cause a lot of confusion in game chat and in the game log so it doesn't seem possible. The same idea was mentioned for the Canada revamp and others in my memory as well - I know that changes can be hard to get used to, but in the end constructive criticism will create a final product with which everyone can at least be satisfied.
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Re: [Official] Germany DESTRUCTION - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby MrBenn on Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:58 am

owenshooter wrote:...they were willing to scrap the perfect inaccurate germany map, so why not scrap the inferior more accurate replacement...

Perfection is entirely subjective, and virtually unachievable. Accuracy is something we can aim towards ;-)
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - Update Pg. 20 w/ XML [I,Gp,Gr]

Postby Seulessliathan on Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:22 am

Seulessliathan wrote:wasn´t there a river in the north of Münster? Rhein isn´t there exactly , but .... mountains? There aren´t any mountains around. Can you change this back to river please? (although the river is wrong, because there are only small rivers, and the Rhein is elsewhere, but mountains doesn´t exist there.


no response? mountains between Münster and Osnabrück are just nonsense .... if you want, you can put in a wall of fog or whatever .... but why mountains? there aren´t even small hills.

and Rheinhessen is a strange name, never heard it anywhere, perhaps you better call it Westdeutschland? Rhein is the river, not the name for an area like Hessen. (and Rhein doesn´t go through Hessen) you combined the districts Rheinland-Pfalz & Hessen.
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Re: [Official] Germany DESTRUCTION - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby owenshooter on Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:29 am

MrBenn wrote:
owenshooter wrote:...they were willing to scrap the perfect inaccurate germany map, so why not scrap the inferior more accurate replacement...

Perfection is entirely subjective, and virtually unachievable. Accuracy is something we can aim towards ;-)

soooo, that is why THE RHINE was removed? i mean, that isn't a major feature of germany's landscape at all, is it... the map is in no way better than the original, hard work does not equate good work. just bring back the original.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby lord voldemort on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:03 am

in my personal opinion i dont like the new map
i find the bonus colours annoying..i understand its to represent the germany flag but i think they are too close together
graphically i just dont enjoy it compared to the other map
as for accuracy i dont know enough to comment
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Re: [Official] Germany DESTRUCTION - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Seulessliathan on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:09 am

owenshooter wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
owenshooter wrote:...they were willing to scrap the perfect inaccurate germany map, so why not scrap the inferior more accurate replacement...

Perfection is entirely subjective, and virtually unachievable. Accuracy is something we can aim towards ;-)

soooo, that is why THE RHINE was removed? i mean, that isn't a major feature of germany's landscape at all, is it... the map is in no way better than the original, hard work does not equate good work. just bring back the original.


indeed, removing the biggest river, adding mountains were no mountains exist .... doesn´t make much sense to me. Gameplay is as good or bad as before, still a standard map. Only improvement i can see are the terretory names, but there are same which could be changed - like the area Rheinhessen .... that´s not an existing name, Rhein has nothing to do with Hessen, it´s just near, and you deleted the Rhein from your map for no reason.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby MrBenn on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:41 am

Instead of talking about problems, let's talk about solutions. ;)

Pepperonibread is already working on possible fixes to the issue of legibility/visibility of names/armies/borders, so let's not speculate further until we can see what alterations have been made.

As has already been mentioned, the course of the Rhine doesn't run a convenient course to maintain identical gameplay, which is why it isn't on the map. The mountains there were added to ensure integrity of gameplay mechanics - if there is a viable alternative, then suggestions would be welcome - perhaps there's a tributary of the Mosel that would work?

As for the name of the region currently labelled Rhinehessen, what would be more suitable? 'Rhineland'? 'Rhine-Westphalia'? 'Rhineland-Westphalia'? Would any of these be more appropriate?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:30 pm

owenshooter wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
owenshooter wrote:...they were willing to scrap the perfect inaccurate germany map, so why not scrap the inferior more accurate replacement...

Perfection is entirely subjective, and virtually unachievable. Accuracy is something we can aim towards ;-)

soooo, that is why THE RHINE was removed? i mean, that isn't a major feature of germany's landscape at all, is it... the map is in no way better than the original, hard work does not equate good work. just bring back the original.


Again, here is the explanation as to why the Rhine was left out:

pepperonibread wrote:http://cheeseperi.free.fr/Jeopardy/culture/rhine.gif

As you can see from this image, the Rhine makes it's way first along the southwest border of Germany, a place where it would just add clutter to the map. It then does cut through Germany, in the light-red area of the revamped map (Rheinhessen). But it would serve no purpose there either, as it would be cutting straight through a continent. So I think it's fair to say that to add the Rhine to the map, however important a river it is, would be a useless addition - unless you want to change the map's basic gameplay.

And that's honestly the crux of the problem (this problem, and many other issues dealing with accuracy). I'll state right out that this map isn't an accurate portrayal of Germany. However, taking into account the fact that no gameplay could be changed whatsoever, I can certainly say that this map is much more accurate than the previous Germany 1.


Though granted, you could still say that without the Rhine this map seems now less accurate than the former map. But here's a quick list I came up with regarding inaccuracies in Germany 1:

1. The continent borders to a degree arbitrary, and do not seem to correspond with the borders of German states.
2. No umlauts are used.
3. In some cases, the original German names are used (Köln, Nürnberg, etc.), while elsewhere the Anglicized versions are displayed (Bavaria, Prussia, etc.).
4. No real river runs between the continents of "Rheinland" and "Hessen".
5. Hemeln on the map is merely a borough with a population of only 960.
6. Dresden is located in the state of Saxony, though on the map it is a part of the "Prussia" continent.
7. The territories of Bavaria, Hessen, Sachsen, and Niedersachsen are names of German states, not cities or small regions (this is akin to having, for example, a territory called "Ohio" within a continent also called Ohio).
8. No real river runs between the continents of ""Prussia" and "East Germany".
9. The territory Halberstadt is far displaced from the actual location of the city.
10. Augsburg is located in southern Bavaria, while on the map it is significantly more northern.
11. Bamberg is a town with population approx. 70,000, there are better areas that this territory could've been name for (Wurzburg).
12. I can't even find Donrath on Wikipedia; I think this was supposed to be the town of Lohmar (which is only a small area anyway).

I believe that most, if not all, of these problems were fixed in the Germany Revamp. Probably most important of these remedies was the changes to border shape. The current borders line up much better with German political divisions than in the old map.

Knowing this, I still hold that this revamp is significantly more accurate the the old map, especially after taking into account the restriction of gameplay. I will of course continue to field suggestions on how to increase the accuracy even more, however we have to keep in mind that not everything will be possible due to the necessity of keeping gameplay identical.

As for individual concerns about accuracy:

Seulessliathan wrote:
Seulessliathan wrote:wasn´t there a river in the north of Münster? Rhein isn´t there exactly , but .... mountains? There aren´t any mountains around. Can you change this back to river please? (although the river is wrong, because there are only small rivers, and the Rhein is elsewhere, but mountains doesn´t exist there.


no response? mountains between Münster and Osnabrück are just nonsense .... if you want, you can put in a wall of fog or whatever .... but why mountains? there aren´t even small hills.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... d_topo.jpg

Linked above is an elevation map of the area. From this, I gather that there are some highlands at least on the eastern part of the border. There are also several rivers in the area, though none run through along that line. I guess your suggestion is to replace the mountains with a river? We can't have a wall of fog or anything like that, but as the rivers aren't perfectly accurate on this map anyway I suppose that that will work.

Seulessliathan wrote:and Rheinhessen is a strange name, never heard it anywhere, perhaps you better call it Westdeutschland? Rhein is the river, not the name for an area like Hessen. (and Rhein doesn´t go through Hessen) you combined the districts Rheinland-Pfalz & Hessen.


After a bit of Wiki browsing, it seems like Westdeutschland is the best alternative. I believe the continent was originally named Rheinhessen for this wine region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinhesse ... _region%29
But I see now that that's a much too small area to represent the whole continent.
Only one concern: I don't know anything about this really, but the name "Westdeutschland" doesn't hold any touchy Cold War connotations does it?

Anyway, thanks for your comments everyone. Sorry it took me so long to respond.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:41 pm

MrBenn wrote:Instead of talking about problems, let's talk about solutions. ;)

Pepperonibread is already working on possible fixes to the issue of legibility/visibility of names/armies/borders, so let's not speculate further until we can see what alterations have been made.

As has already been mentioned, the course of the Rhine doesn't run a convenient course to maintain identical gameplay, which is why it isn't on the map. The mountains there were added to ensure integrity of gameplay mechanics - if there is a viable alternative, then suggestions would be welcome - perhaps there's a tributary of the Mosel that would work?

As for the name of the region currently labelled Rhinehessen, what would be more suitable? 'Rhineland'? 'Rhine-Westphalia'? 'Rhineland-Westphalia'? Would any of these be more appropriate?


Thanks for the input Benn.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Seulessliathan on Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:46 am

pepperonibread wrote:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... d_topo.jpg

Linked above is an elevation map of the area. From this, I gather that there are some highlands at least on the eastern part of the border. There are also several rivers in the area, though none run through along that line. I guess your suggestion is to replace the mountains with a river? We can't have a wall of fog or anything like that, but as the rivers aren't perfectly accurate on this map anyway I suppose that that will work.


if you look at your own link, you will see there aren´t any mountains, if you want to call it hills, Bavaria is one huge mountain^^
and yes, if you need a natural border there, a river would fit better than mountains in my opinion.


pepperonibread wrote:After a bit of Wiki browsing, it seems like Westdeutschland is the best alternative. I believe the continent was originally named Rheinhessen for this wine region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinhesse ... _region%29
But I see now that that's a much too small area to represent the whole continent.


you took the states Rheinland-Pfalz, Nordrhein-Westalen and Hessen together here.
Germany has 16 states, and you have 6 bonus areas, you see the problem about using states names.

Btw, nobody calls the northeast Preussen, that´s a name from the past, but i´m ok with that name.

pepperonibread wrote:Only one concern: I don't know anything about this really, but the name "Westdeutschland" doesn't hold any touchy Cold War connotations does it?


no

MrBenn wrote:As for the name of the region currently labelled Rhinehessen, what would be more suitable? 'Rhineland'? 'Rhine-Westphalia'? 'Rhineland-Westphalia'? Would any of these be more appropriate?


see above (and mixing up languages is never a good idea, if you want english names, ok, but then use english names for all ter)
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:30 am

Seulessliathan wrote:
pepperonibread wrote:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... d_topo.jpg

Linked above is an elevation map of the area. From this, I gather that there are some highlands at least on the eastern part of the border. There are also several rivers in the area, though none run through along that line. I guess your suggestion is to replace the mountains with a river? We can't have a wall of fog or anything like that, but as the rivers aren't perfectly accurate on this map anyway I suppose that that will work.


if you look at your own link, you will see there aren´t any mountains, if you want to call it hills, Bavaria is one huge mountain^^
and yes, if you need a natural border there, a river would fit better than mountains in my opinion.


pepperonibread wrote:After a bit of Wiki browsing, it seems like Westdeutschland is the best alternative. I believe the continent was originally named Rheinhessen for this wine region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinhesse ... _region%29
But I see now that that's a much too small area to represent the whole continent.


you took the states Rheinland-Pfalz, Nordrhein-Westalen and Hessen together here.
Germany has 16 states, and you have 6 bonus areas, you see the problem about using states names.

Btw, nobody calls the northeast Preussen, that´s a name from the past, but i´m ok with that name.

pepperonibread wrote:Only one concern: I don't know anything about this really, but the name "Westdeutschland" doesn't hold any touchy Cold War connotations does it?


no

MrBenn wrote:As for the name of the region currently labelled Rhinehessen, what would be more suitable? 'Rhineland'? 'Rhine-Westphalia'? 'Rhineland-Westphalia'? Would any of these be more appropriate?


see above (and mixing up languages is never a good idea, if you want english names, ok, but then use english names for all ter)


Thanks Seulessliathan. I'll make all these changes in the next update.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Gilligan on Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:53 pm

I apologize if this has been brought up already, but Zwickau really looks like Ewickau.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby pepperonibread on Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm

Gilligan wrote:I apologize if this has been brought up already, but Zwickau really looks like Ewickau.


Yep it's been noted. It'll be fixed whenever I can find some time to finish an update.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Tobikera on Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:28 am

This is an ugly map. Can it. Bring back the original. Quite a few people that I regularly play avoid this map now, as do I. Get rid of it.
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby laddida on Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:32 pm

has there been changes made cause looking at it now seems a bit easier to read actually i think i can give this one a shot now
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby LoeNY on Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:53 pm

Tobikera wrote:This is an ugly map. Can it. Bring back the original. Quite a few people that I regularly play avoid this map now, as do I. Get rid of it.


Yeah. I don't mean to be harsh, but I really like the original more than this new map. The original is clearer and easier on the eyes. Would you consider bringing back the old map please?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby owenshooter on Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:34 pm

have there been any additional changes or thoughts of changes since the last batch of posts? i am personally not playing on the map anymore for reasons i already listed. i know how hard this map was worked on, but have the concerns since the switch been addressed again?-0
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:06 pm

owenshooter wrote:have there been any additional changes or thoughts of changes since the last batch of posts? i am personally not playing on the map anymore for reasons i already listed. i know how hard this map was worked on, but have the concerns since the switch been addressed again?-0



Not a single thing has changed...
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:14 pm

over 2 months later... and not a single update... Foundry FAIL... Not all of the people, moreso the process...
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby laddida on Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:10 pm

Bruceswar wrote:over 2 months later... and not a single update... Foundry FAIL... Not all of the people, moreso the process...



maybe until this map was finished they should of left the old one out there. What if this takes another year?
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:25 pm

Everything is pretty cool with this map except the colors. I think with a bit of tweaking it could be a quick fix. They are just too bright and vivid. tone em down a little, and then see if it garners more interest. good luck pep. 8-)
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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:30 pm

laddida wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:over 2 months later... and not a single update... Foundry FAIL... Not all of the people, moreso the process...



maybe until this map was finished they should of left the old one out there. What if this takes another year?

It won't. ;) Benn's got a process in place for such things. Expect him to announce more about it soon.


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Re: [Official] Germany REVAMP - POST CONCERNS HERE

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:02 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
laddida wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:over 2 months later... and not a single update... Foundry FAIL... Not all of the people, moreso the process...



maybe until this map was finished they should of left the old one out there. What if this takes another year?

It won't. ;) Benn's got a process in place for such things. Expect him to announce more about it soon.


--Andy



yawn we have all heard this before.... What a total mess this was from start to finish.... Germany which had 200+ games going at all times, is now under 50 ... another map killed. Thanks foundry ;)
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