Archipelago [Quenched]

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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby t-o-m on Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:38 pm

i dont want you to scrap the map, just ajust it.

Mjinga wrote:TaCktiX: Thank you for notifying us of your non-interest.

i accept your thanks on behalf of him ;) dont i Tack ;)

Mjinga wrote:Oh, you’re ALL the regulars? I never knew that you four decided everything on ConquerClub.

yep thats us, everything on this whole site goes through us :D
what i mean is that i am not a 'regular' but the others are
they do know what works and what doesnt, theyve seen things goes through the foundry, theyve seen what will make it,
so listen to the experienced people and dont go mouthing off to them [-X

and as for the long winded bit: go study some other map threads, they have a good attitude, listen to people, and are not stuborn

CatfishJohnson wrote:lol nicely done, i mean if they didnt have interest in the map they wouldnt keep coming here to axe it :\

umm so u wanna know if we have interest eh?
what you said doesnt even make sense, if we had interest why woudl we "axe it"

TaCktiX wrote:
greenoaks wrote:you were not ignored DiM. they basically told us to piss off in this post. they only want to hear from people who agree with them.


Hear that sound? It's the sound of total lack of interest in this map as it is right now. ;)
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby Mjinga on Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:50 pm

t-o-m wrote:i dont want you to scrap the map, just ajust it.
How, then? Please inform me. Specific details work best.

t-o-m wrote:what i mean is that i am not a 'regular' but the others are
they do know what works and what doesnt, theyve seen things goes through the foundry, theyve seen what will make it,
so listen to the experienced people and dont go mouthing off to them [-X
Good for them. I have noted their opinions.

t-o-m wrote: and as for the long winded bit: go study some other map threads, they have a good attitude, listen to people, and are not stuborn
All that I have been stubborn on is that I will not give up. I repeat, I will not. End of story. Next?

I think you rather completely misunderstood both my post and CatfishJohnson’s.
Reputation cleared. :) Never let it be said that Team CC don't investigate fairly.
Although they take bloody forever to do it...
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby t-o-m on Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:56 pm

Mjinga wrote:
t-o-m wrote: i dont want you to scrap the map, just ajust it.


How, then? Please inform me. Specific details work best.

im not making the map, i have no interest in this map so my only suggestion is to get a theme, theme it more i.e have flags on there from the countries that have there - i know little about where your doing so do some research into their culture and things and include that in there - atm it looks a bit...meh...boring...i know it is a first draft though
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby t-o-m on Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:02 pm

i gave you critisism and a suggestion,

i saw both of your names on the "users browsing this forum", why dont you respond? ;)
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Re: Archipelago --v1 p1--

Postby wcaclimbing on Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:09 pm

DiM wrote:as much as i like fantasy maps i don't find this one attractive at all. i mean making up a bogus archipelago just for the sake of it is wrong. if you want to create a special gameplay yes you can come up with fantasy realms to suit your needs but if it's classic gameplay then why not do a real place? you will have a lot more success by doing the hawaii islands or by making the malay archipelago because people relate better to a real place than to a fantasy theme. and frankly unless the fantasy theme comes from something very popular (middle earth, discworld) or the gameplay is something new and exciting (aom, feudal, aor) then people won't play it.

look at this image of the malay archipelago. isn't it nice?
[image removed]


Colors match up below with text in the quote.

Does it matter that much anyway?

cause maybe there isn't a place that matches this map?
Also, forcing a map onto a real landscape can often trash the gameplay. Because the borders given by a real map won't always give good gameplay for CC.


Is there any evidence out there to support that?

*raises hand*
I'll still play it. I'm looking forward to it.
Remember:
Not everyone likes complex maps.
Not everyone likes real world maps.
Let them make this map. it looks good so far.

Look at this image of a monkey. isn't it nice?
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Re: Archipelago --v1 p1--

Postby t-o-m on Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:26 pm

wcaclimbing wrote:
DiM wrote:as much as i like fantasy maps i don't find this one attractive at all. i mean making up a bogus archipelago just for the sake of it is wrong. if you want to create a special gameplay yes you can come up with fantasy realms to suit your needs but if it's classic gameplay then why not do a real place? you will have a lot more success by doing the hawaii islands or by making the malay archipelago because people relate better to a real place than to a fantasy theme. and frankly unless the fantasy theme comes from something very popular (middle earth, discworld) or the gameplay is something new and exciting (aom, feudal, aor) then people won't play it.

look at this image of the malay archipelago. isn't it nice?
[image removed]


Colors match up below with text in the quote.

Does it matter that much anyway?

cause maybe there isn't a place that matches this map?
Also, forcing a map onto a real landscape can often trash the gameplay. Because the borders given by a real map won't always give good gameplay for CC.


Is there any evidence out there to support that?

*raises hand*
I'll still play it. I'm looking forward to it.
Remember:
Not everyone likes complex maps.
Not everyone likes real world maps.
Let them make this map. it looks good so far.



[color=#800000] yup ;)

well then pick an archipelo that is nice and good gameplay, do some research into the archipelos :roll:


i like real world places, everyone likes what i like ;) :D :D :D

meh

p.s. im just doing this coz i like the prettifull colours
but i did speak sum truth of what i thinks
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby InkL0sed on Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:04 pm

Well, I have to say, I personally am not crazy about this idea. But I won't say outright that it can't work -- but you guys will have your work cut out for you.

While I guess making a classic-style map of a place that doesn't exist isn't un-doable per se, I think the fact that so many people have expressed doubts about it reflects the kind of reception it will get. I think no matter what you do, if you stick to this idea, most people will see this map and either go "wtf?" or assume there is some special gameplay to it that they're missing. This will likely make this map unpopular ("who wants to play a classic-style map on a random fantasy world, anyway? There are much cooler places I could play classic-style on").

To make up for that fact, I think you guys really need to get to the next level in terms of graphics. If this map becomes very nice to look at, then it just might make up for the random/pointlessness factor explained above.
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby ZeakCytho on Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:48 pm

t-o-m wrote:
Mjinga wrote:
t-o-m wrote: i dont want you to scrap the map, just ajust it.


How, then? Please inform me. Specific details work best.

im not making the map, i have no interest in this map so my only suggestion is to get a theme, theme it more i.e have flags on there from the countries that have there - i know little about where your doing so do some research into their culture and things and include that in there - atm it looks a bit...meh...boring...i know it is a first draft though


Umm...This is a fictional map. There isn't research to do into culture or things, nor are there existing flags. So...not much we can do with that suggestion...

t-o-m wrote:i saw both of your names on the "users browsing this forum", why dont you respond? ;)


Given that your suggestion wasn't very helpful (you told us to research a fictional region that we made up :|), we didn't really have much to say.

wcaclimbing: Thanks for your support!

InkL0sed wrote:Well, I have to say, I personally am not crazy about this idea. But I won't say outright that it can't work -- but you guys will have your work cut out for you.

While I guess making a classic-style map of a place that doesn't exist isn't un-doable per se, I think the fact that so many people have expressed doubts about it reflects the kind of reception it will get. I think no matter what you do, if you stick to this idea, most people will see this map and either go "wtf?" or assume there is some special gameplay to it that they're missing. This will likely make this map unpopular ("who wants to play a classic-style map on a random fantasy world, anyway? There are much cooler places I could play classic-style on").

To make up for that fact, I think you guys really need to get to the next level in terms of graphics. If this map becomes very nice to look at, then it just might make up for the random/pointlessness factor explained above.


Okay, thanks for the comments. Do you have any suggestion as to how we can improve the graphics?

Also, anyone have a suggestion for the total number of territories?
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby Unit_2 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:58 pm

Wow, nice graphics and gameplay :)
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby wcaclimbing on Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:00 am

ZeakCytho wrote:
Okay, thanks for the comments. Do you have any suggestion as to how we can improve the graphics?

Also, anyone have a suggestion for the total number of territories?


My vote is replace the volcano with a regular mountian and it will be good.
but then again, the rest of the entire forum seems to be against this map, so don't listen to me. They probably have more to say....
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby CatfishJohnson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:04 am

heh its more like 3 people...but w.e u just opened a new can bro, so now what u said is gonna be quoted and used against them two....sigh, but i like the volcano, why dont u like it man
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby MrBenn on Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:55 am

Well, it sounds like you guys (mapmakers and commentators) have been getting your knickers in a twist over this one... The first thing I would recommend you all do is to take a step back and take some of the heat out of the discussion.

So, now that everybody has calmed down, we can try and be objective about the map... As far as I know, there are several things that a map needs in order to move forward:
1) A good idea, 2) Good graphics, 3) Good gameplay, 4) Support

The debate about the graphics (which I think are fine) and gameplay (which I haven't looked at) tends to be picked up on and adjusted throughout the Foundry process. The way that these develop is pretty much dependant on the support that you have for your map.

At the moment, I get the impression that while you are quite passionate about your idea, you don't currently have the support that you will need to carry this idea through the rest of the Foundry process. This means that you either need to go and gather some support from elsewhere, or come up with a different idea to make this see the distance.
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby CatfishJohnson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:37 am

But Mr Been, its the same 3 people that are bitching and more then 3 have supported it, and they bitchers say the same damn thing, its doenst interest me, because its fictional...wtf if i mad a NY times bestseller list
and i involed this god damn island chain gg no re son, u would be creaming yourselfs over the idea
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby MrBenn on Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:39 am

Mapmakers:
Zeakcytho (7)
Mjinga (5)

Shown interest:
CatfishJohnson (7)
wcaclimbing (3)
Herakilla (2)

Neutrals:
Inkclosed (2)
Kemmler (1)
Unit_2 (1)
MrBenn (1)

Dis-interested:
t-o-m (17)
Greenoaks (5)
Bryguy (3)
DiM (2)
Tacktix (2)

These figures are based on the number of comments so far.

I stand by my earlier comment:
At the moment, I get the impression that while you are quite passionate about your idea, you don't currently have the support that you will need to carry this idea through the rest of the Foundry process. This means that you either need to go and gather some support from elsewhere, or come up with a different idea to make this see the distance.

Please don't paint me as a bad guy - I am only trying to help.
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby TaCktiX on Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:42 am

This map does not interest me because of its similarity to other maps. As far as I'm concerned, it's a better-looking clone of Discworld, with not a smidge worth of different gameplay to distinguish it. Include that with similar mechanics to Discworld, Caribbean Islands, and Battle for Australia (all island-jumping maps), and I see it as redundancy repackaged in a better-looking wrapper. Graphics alone do not make a map worth making.
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby CatfishJohnson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:00 am

No i understand man dont worry im not painting us a bad guy at all, im just sick of their same reasons over and over fo sho
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby t-o-m on Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:41 am

ZeakCytho wrote:
t-o-m wrote:
Mjinga wrote:
How, then? Please inform me. Specific details work best.

im not making the map, i have no interest in this map so my only suggestion is to get a theme, theme it more i.e have flags on there from the countries that have there - i know little about where your doing so do some research into their culture and things and include that in there - atm it looks a bit...meh...boring...i know it is a first draft though


Umm...This is a fictional map. There isn't research to do into culture or things, nor are there existing flags. So...not much we can do with that suggestion...

t-o-m wrote:i saw both of your names on the "users browsing this forum", why dont you respond? ;)


Given that your suggestion wasn't very helpful (you told us to research a fictional region that we made up :|), we didn't really have much to say.


well there we go again, i give you some support/guidance and you go sayin that its a shit suggestion!
y dont you just do a real archipelo, one with culture, one with a flag, one that people can relate to???
-
-
-
also mr benn - not mr been catfish
umm whats the numbers thing around the sides of peoples' names on ur list thingy?
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby bryguy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:29 am

The volcano looks horrid

see DiMs AoR Mayhem map, it has a nice looking volcano


catfish, you seem to have a bad attitude that makes me hate this map even more.
same for zeak

t-o-m wrote:
ZeakCytho wrote:
t-o-m wrote:im not making the map, i have no interest in this map so my only suggestion is to get a theme, theme it more i.e have flags on there from the countries that have there - i know little about where your doing so do some research into their culture and things and include that in there - atm it looks a bit...meh...boring...i know it is a first draft though


Umm...This is a fictional map. There isn't research to do into culture or things, nor are there existing flags. So...not much we can do with that suggestion... make up a flag then :roll:

t-o-m wrote:i saw both of your names on the "users browsing this forum", why dont you respond? ;)


Given that your suggestion wasn't very helpful (you told us to research a fictional region that we made up :|), we didn't really have much to say. he didnt exactly tell u to research a fictional region, he basically told you to MAKE some flags. Google different flags, then when u have a good idea of flags u should make some for it.


well there we go again, i give you some support/guidance and you go sayin that its a shit suggestion!
y dont you just do a real archipelo, one with culture, one with a flag, one that people can relate to???
-
-
-
also mr benn - not mr been catfish
umm whats the numbers thing around the sides of peoples' names on ur list thingy? i believe it is ammount of posts


edit: the only thing good about this map i can see, is that the bonus' arent half bad, except for the yellow place, it has so many borders to protect u should up the bonus to 6
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby greenoaks on Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:51 am

none of your attack routes make sense.

why can the armies of Niagis attack Islor Coast, Odesse, Iora Archipelago & Kyson but they can't sail directly to Orold, Asaad, Fidan Peninsula or Sarubi.

why can the Fidan Peninsula attack Sarubi but not the Mura Coast.

why can Bokep Island attack Hersis, Chakala, Toril & Falmor but not Luron Coast, Kelata or Mura Coast.
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby ZeakCytho on Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:12 pm

I've been away on vacation for a few days now, and will be away for a few more still, so I have rather limited internet access time and can't respond to each point made (yet). An update will come as soon as possible, but for now, I appologize for the long delay.

:oops:
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby Mjinga on Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:14 pm

Thanks, Unit_2. Glad you like the map, CatfishJohnson.:)

wcaclimbing, it’s looking like were going to end up taking it out. I have to run something by Zeak once I catch him online, but it’s looking like the negative-bonus thing isn’t going to work, and it’s just a random volcano without that.

MrBenn, thanks for the advice.

TaCktiX, thanks for your opinion.

t-o-m, he did not say it was a shit suggestion. He said that he didn’t know how it applied to this map.

bryguy, thanks for clarifying t-o-m’s comments. We misread “i know little about where your doing so do some research into their culture and things and include that in there” as a suggestion to do some research into the culture of this fictional island group.

Regarding the bonus, we got it from the bonus-calculator thing somewhere on this forum, but I think you’re right, it should be upped.

greenoaks, I had in mind that Bokep would be a connector between the purple countries without being an avenue of outside invasion, but on the others, I can’t say there was a particular reason on my part. Let me find out from Zeak if he has one, and I’ll get back to you on changing it.
Reputation cleared. :) Never let it be said that Team CC don't investigate fairly.
Although they take bloody forever to do it...
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby greenoaks on Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:42 pm

what i'm getting at is sea routes aren't fixed. i only suggested places of roughly equal distance to those already in place as their might be restrictions on the range of the fleet like there are for planes. there could be restrictions on where you can attack from ie. the location of a naval base but there would be no such restriction on where you can attack, think US marines or D-Day.
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby ZeakCytho on Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:56 pm

Okay, the next version is being worked on right now and will be up...sometime soon ;)

Things added:
1) Attack routes drastically altered so that they're all similar in length
2) The volcano has been changed into a regular mountain
3) Flags have been created and added in the style of the Great Lakes map (low opacity on top of the layer of the respective continent)

Things still to decide:
1) How many total territories should be added to make the starting positions more equal?
2) How should the continent bonuses be changed? We didn't alter these yet because many of the attack routes have been modified, but once the next version is out, tentative continent bonuses should be discussed.

I'm back from my vacation now, so things should proceed more swiftly. Thanks to everyone who has commented so far :D
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby t-o-m on Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:06 pm

im quite looking forward to see this up,
im not too sure about the terit numbers to go with the starting positions, maybe if you give us a list i.e.
[how many terits there are now, lets say 20 (random number)]
8players =2terits
7players = 2terits
6plyr = 3 terits
5plyr=4
4plyr=5
3plyr=6
2plyr=10

^like that maybe??^
just so we know how many terits people start with??
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Re: Archipelago v2 (p1+2)

Postby ZeakCytho on Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:23 pm

There are 36 territories right now. I am not 100% sure on how CC divides territories at the beginning, but based on my experiences, I think these are the numbers for now:

My notation is: Number of players - Number of territories per player, number of neutrals

2 - 12, 12
3 - 12
4 - 9
5 - 7, 1
6 - 6
7 - 5, 1
8 - 4, 4

The problem with this layout is that in 2 and 3 player games, the first player to go gets 4 men to start and can easily reduce his opponents starting deployment to 3 by taking just one territory. Here are the charts for some other starting values that seem reasonable and don't require a massive amount of additions/subtractions from the map:

38 players:
2 - 13, 12
3 - 12, 2
4 - 9, 2
5 - 7, 3
6 - 6, 2
7 - 5, 3
8 - 4, 6

40 players:
2 - 13, 14
3 - 13, 1
4 - 10
5 - 8
6 - 6, 4
7 - 5, 5
8 - 5

34 players:
2 - 11, 12
3 - 11, 1
4 - 8, 2
5 - 6, 4
6 - 5, 4
7 - 4, 6
8 - 4, 2

So, 36 has the least number of starting neutrals, but has that nasty thing with 2 and 3 player games that none of the others have. 38 and 34 both have tons of starting neutrals, which is annoying, while 40 has relatively fewer.

Can people a) check my math and b) comment on which number of starting territories they'd like the most?
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