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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:59 am

sam_levi_11 wrote:the border between germany and poland looks very odd, out of place.


I think that's because the yellow border from it being Europe - isn't actually there.

C.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby oaktown on Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:21 am

yeti_c wrote:
sam_levi_11 wrote:the border between germany and poland looks very odd, out of place.


I think that's because the yellow border from it being Europe - isn't actually there.

C.

Actually a few of the borders between regions need to be cleaned up because they don't match up right/the wrong layer is on top. And thanks to the one voice who likes the tree roots - I personally like them as well, but I'll try something else.

Gameplay comments? Anyone? Bueller?
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:52 am

Ferris speaking.

Wouldn't the title sound better if it was:
End of Empires : The Eastern Hemisphere without the "The" in front.

Also I don't want to sound like a troublemaker but I am not able to see where a region ends and another one begins. The border colours look too similar to me. :(

Sorry I know you wanted gameplay comments but that's all I have for now.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby InkL0sed on Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:53 am

I'm not sure I like the fact that colonies can't attack Trading Co. Or that Trading Co. are neutral killers. Is that really necessary, or is that just a needless gimmick?
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby pamoa on Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:17 pm

InkL0sed wrote:I'm not sure I like the fact that colonies can't attack Trading Co. Or that Trading Co. are neutral killers. Is that really necessary, or is that just a needless gimmick?

It seems to me you put 2 ideas in this trading company concept:
    -either, it's a one way attack route from europe to colonies then they should remain killer neutral but you can remove the counter attack from colonies and they will tend be like a decoration feature.
    - or, they are "bridges" between colonies which can be attacked from europe then it would be better to remove the killer neutral stuff so they remain a kind of permanent danger which need to be controled. You have then a 2 way game: some people will try to control them to control the game, other will go for classic.
I prefer the second which like an objective map without objective, but could be very tricky to master in term of counter-attack.
You can even give a bonus for contolling them all like +2.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby oaktown on Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:35 pm

InkL0sed wrote:I'm not sure I like the fact that colonies can't attack Trading Co. Or that Trading Co. are neutral killers. Is that really necessary, or is that just a needless gimmick?

the idea was to approximate the way that european powers were able to exert their global influence both directly by sending troops around the globe and attacking conventionally, and indirectly through the quasi-independent trading companies.

Let's say you are playing this map and you hold France. Your opponent has taken control of Southeast Asia, and you don't want him to hold that bonus. You don't have any armies in that part of the world because you've tied up your resources in North Africa, so instead you turn to your trading company to wreak havoc on Siam, which the trading company controls economically of not physically. To do so you expend some resources taking temporary control of the Trading Company, then through the Trading Co. you pummel Siam into political disarray. You didn't actually send any troops in so you can't control the region, but you have disrupted your opponent's control over the region.

I would be willing to discuss an alternative to the Trading Companies reverting to neutral, but I don't want the Trading Cos to directly occupy a territory. The alternative I am considering is allow the Trading Co's to perhaps start the game neutral, but then become the property of the player that takes them. However, to avoid making the Trading Co's too powerful, the colonies could bombard - not capture - the Trading Co's. This opens up the strategic route of allowing a player to try to control the game by controlling the Trading Co's, as Pamoa suggested, without making them all-powerful.

As for giving a bonus for holding them all, I predict any the player who controls them will be the player who also controls Europe, so I think it's enough to receive the Europe region bonus and having the power to pick off your opponents bonuses around the globe, especially if we allow the player to keep the Trading Co. from round to round.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby pamoa on Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:42 pm

I like your alternative, these trading Co's were the last real forces europe had to control territories which where allready emancipating, so they need to be an important feature.The bonus idea was only if you could take control of them from colonies. But, as your alternative is more realistic just forget it, none of these colonies could ever dream controling any of the Trading Co's.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby MrBenn on Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:28 pm

pamoa wrote:I like your alternative, these trading Co's were the last real forces europe had to control territories which where allready emancipating, so they need to be an important feature.The bonus idea was only if you could take control of them from colonies. But, as your alternative is more realistic just forget it, none of these colonies could ever dream controling any of the Trading Co's.

I also think that the bombard option would make for better gameplay... I still think that neutral killers are a bit gimmicky...
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:29 pm

oaktown wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
sam_levi_11 wrote:the border between germany and poland looks very odd, out of place.


I think that's because the yellow border from it being Europe - isn't actually there.

C.

Actually a few of the borders between regions need to be cleaned up because they don't match up right/the wrong layer is on top. And thanks to the one voice who likes the tree roots - I personally like them as well, but I'll try something else.

Gameplay comments? Anyone? Bueller?


I'll give some love to the roots too - I think they look shit hot.

C.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby sam_levi_11 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:57 pm

oaktown wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
sam_levi_11 wrote:the border between germany and poland looks very odd, out of place.


I think that's because the yellow border from it being Europe - isn't actually there.

C.

Actually a few of the borders between regions need to be cleaned up because they don't match up right/the wrong layer is on top. And thanks to the one voice who likes the tree roots - I personally like them as well, but I'll try something else.

Gameplay comments? Anyone? Bueller?


twas me! i think they are awesome and unique. stick with them
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby InkL0sed on Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:48 pm

I like the idea of letting the colonies bombard the Trading Co. That seems to make it a little more balanced.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby BaldAdonis on Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:29 am

oaktown wrote:Gameplay comments? Anyone? Bueller?
I might give a +3 for SE Asia, while it has 3/4 to defend just like Middle East and Japan, it also has two bombardable territories.

Aside from that, looks very nice. There's a good distribution of highly connected territories (7 have 6, 7 or 8 degrees of connectedness, 3 more if bombardments are included), but the overall average is sort of small (4, 20, 20, 9, 7, 5, 1, 1 averages 2.9, compare to 3.9 for Classic). The bombardments extends the reach of European territories by 14 overall. So long as they revert to 1 each time, it's reasonable to count them as connecting the homelands to the empire without actually adding them in as territories, so that bumps it up to 3.1. I wouldn't be worried about it, it'll just play better for flat rate/no cards games where connectedness is less desirable. The large 6/7/8 hubs and dearth of dead ends will make for interesting escalating games.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 9 [I]

Postby oaktown on Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:20 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


Gameplay change: no more killer neutrals. Trading companies can be held, but can be bombarded by colonies of like flag... general strikes and the like. And I should note that to keep a good number of starting territories the trading companies will start the game nuetral.

Graphical changes... added a blue tinted pattern to the sea, not sure what I think. The region border color is a bit wider, and as suggested it follows the mountains in Asia to make it clear that the mountains are the end of the region. I added some noise to the entire thing, and I'm toying with the idea of adding some light rivers - not a gameplay feature, just to make this map look more like an actual map. My hope is that if I push this in the direction of looking like a real document the tree root mountains - love 'em or hate 'em - will fit in a bit more. Who knows - it may be a futile move.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:20 pm

I like most of the changes, especially the Trading Companies (both in graphics and game play), though I'm not sure I like the wider color outline...it almost looks like too much now. But I generally like the noise.

Are you going to make any slight alterations to the legend? I.E. maybe bolder text?

Have you done anything to the flags? If not, are you going to? ;)

Looking good.


--Andy
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:44 am

AndyDufresne wrote:I like most of the changes, especially the Trading Companies (both in graphics and game play), though I'm not sure I like the wider color outline...it almost looks like too much now. But I generally like the noise.

--Andy


Like it or not, I'm able to differentiate between a region and another now while before I couldn't. So it's thumbs up for the new wider borders from my side. I understand that non colour blind people might prefer the older borders but for us colour blind players I think they are essential.

Btw Oak, you didn't tell me what you think about making the name "End of Empires" instead of "The End of Empires". I think it sounds better and has more of an impact, what do you think?
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby oaktown on Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:21 pm

Ruben Cassar wrote:Like it or not, I'm able to differentiate between a region and another now while before I couldn't. So it's thumbs up for the new wider borders from my side. I understand that non colour blind people might prefer the older borders but for us colour blind players I think they are essential.

yeah, it works a lot better for me as well... I think the wider borders will look better as more changes occur.

Ruben Cassar wrote:Btw Oak, you didn't tell me what you think about making the name "End of Empires" instead of "The End of Empires". I think it sounds better and has more of an impact, what do you think?

I should definitely drop one "The" - not sure which. I'll play.

AndyBanana wrote:Are you going to make any slight alterations to the legend? I.E. maybe bolder text?

I can make it more legible, especially as I add more grunge.

AndyBanana wrote:Have you done anything to the flags? If not, are you going to?

I've cranked the opacity down on all of the flags so that the background color bleeds through and the individual colors don't pop out so much. I definitely think they look better the more faded-looking they are, but if I fade them out too much I'm afraid somebody will confuse the two tri-color flags.

Are there specific flags that are bothering you? Boats, Europeans, colonies?
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby dunc_2007 on Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:27 pm

I think the coloring scheme seems a bit inconsistent. The brightly colored continents (S. Africa, Middle East, etc.) don't seem to quite fit with the duller ones (N. Africa, Oceania). Other than that, it's looking great!
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby iancanton on Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:15 am

this is really great work, except for the colour of europe being indistinguishable from that of the chinese empire. use pink instead of yellow for one of them?

would ensigns, like the ones in cairnswk's forbidden city, fit the empire theme better than national flags? cairnswk uses military ensigns, though i link to merchant ensigns for the trading companies. i think this makes a difference only to great britain and germany, but the german ensign is more distinctive than the tricolour. links to the british red ensign and german naval jack are from the excellent http://www.fotw.net site.

http://www.fotw.net/FLAGS/gb-ensr.html
http://www.fotw.net/FLagS/de1871~j.html

u've given the whole of sakhalin island to japan. although japan had only the southern half, i can see why u've done it, since splitting the island leaves an awkward half-territory that has to be connected to the rest of amur territory (thereby causing problems similar to those of creta et cyrenaica in qwert's initial versions of imperium romanum). the japanese name of the island was karafuto; sakhalin is used nowadays because the whole of the island has belonged to russia since 1945.

rather than have three random provinces to represent han china, take the same approach as u have done for russia and use cities: peking (not szechwan) in the north, nanking or shanghai (not fukien) in the east and, most importantly, canton (not yunnan) in the south. adjust the border so that it is canton (currently yunnan) that has the sea link to the philippine islands.

the number of territories, 73, is good for 8 players. however, in a 2-player game, the first player receives 8 armies and, by winning only one territory from his opponent, brings him down to 7 per turn. adding two territories reduces the advantage somewhat. as before, to provide a better balance between the chinese and japanese empires, i suggest splitting japan into its three largest islands, being hokkaido, honshu and kyushu (this is virtually the only good point of cc's otherwise-horrible asia map), with the army circles going in the sea.

http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/Asia.S.jpg

ian. :)
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby oaktown on Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:29 am

Thanks for the thoughtful post Ian - I'll look at it more closely and make some changes when I'm more awake.

iancanton wrote:the number of territories, 73, is good for 8 players. however, in a 2-player game, the first player receives 8 armies and, by winning only one territory from his opponent, brings him down to 7 per turn. adding two territories reduces the advantage somewhat. as before, to provide a better balance between the chinese and japanese empires, i suggest splitting japan into its three largest islands, being hokkaido, honshu and kyushu (this is virtually the only good point of cc's otherwise-horrible asia map), with the army circles going in the sea.


I may be wrong, but I've got the map at 71 territories, of which four start neutral (the Trading Co's). Game start will look like this:
8 players: 8 terits each, 3 neutrals
7 players: 9 terits each, 4 neutrals
6 players: 11 terits each, 1 neutrals
5 players: 13 terits each, 2 neutrals
4 players: 16 terits each, 3 neutrals
2/3 players: 22 terits each, 1 neutral

In a two player game the first player will get 7 armies to start, and can knock his opponent's bonus down by taking two territories... this won't be impossible to do and could give the first player an advantage, but really there is never going to be a perfect start for a two player game on a 60+ territory map.

Adding two territories to Japan makes Japan a tough start, and I feel as if we already have enough tough starts on this map. If the consensus is that the two player situation is that bad we could split up Japan, or we could leave Japan as is and just NOT start the Trading Companies neutral.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby gimil on Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:10 am

Correct me if im wrong, but wasn't australia part of teh British Empire? Or did they become independant before 1910?
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby t-o-m on Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:27 am

gimil wrote:Correct me if im wrong, but wasn't australia part of teh British Empire? Or did they become independant before 1910?

(i heard somewhere that autralia is still technically part of the British Empire because apparently they never declared inderpendance.)
But i'm not sure of that. Would Cairns know?

I'm not too keen on the Europe colour, the actual colour, and i think it is a little similar to the China colour. It shouldnt matter too much.

But one thing i dont like with colours is Africa. The black on top and then the soft pale blue really dont match. Could you try something that is a little bit less contrasting?
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: Trading Co's on Pg 6

Postby oaktown on Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:19 pm

I had Australia as a UK colony until page six...

asl80 wrote:sorry ... haven't read anything in this topic yet ... but the map looks good, only that in 1910 Australia had been federated (from 1901) and was no longer a colony of britain, though we did still shine thier boots for a long time remaining a "dominion" of britain or something of the sorts - meaning the boots we lick are still the queens ... but these have/had no official/practical bearing after federation.


I've read up a bit on this and asl80 is correct of course, though they have remained a part of the commonwealth (thus all the Aussies working in London!). If somebody can sort out New Zealand for me it'd be nice: they were also self-governing by 1910, and named an independent "Dominion" in 1907.

The colors can be swapped around... I'll play with them.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby oaktown on Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:59 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


iancanton wrote:this is really great work, except for the colour of europe being indistinguishable from that of the chinese empire. use pink instead of yellow for one of them?

I've changed a bunch of the colors around... Africa is back to brown and orange, which nobody took offense to earlier. Europe is the teal, Aus green, and South East Asia is something of a pink, as suggested. Not sure if I love the exact shades and I can tinker, but I hope the colors are more distinguishable from each other now.

iancanton wrote:would ensigns, like the ones in cairnswk's forbidden city, fit the empire theme better than national flags?

My thought is no - the Trading Companies don't represent a military force in the traditional or official sense - its a different kind of influence which is nationalistic but not militaristic.

iancanton wrote:u've given the whole of sakhalin island to japan. although japan had only the southern half, i can see why u've done it, since splitting the island leaves an awkward half-territory that has to be connected to the rest of amur territory (thereby causing problems similar to those of creta et cyrenaica in qwert's initial versions of imperium romanum). the japanese name of the island was karafuto; sakhalin is used nowadays because the whole of the island has belonged to russia since 1945.

Yeah, I've had trouble with how to represent the island, and I while not entirely accurate historically I think that this is a case in which function trumps history. But good catch on the naming - I've changed it to karafuto.

iancanton wrote:rather than have three random provinces to represent han china, take the same approach as u have done for russia and use cities: peking (not szechwan) in the north, nanking or shanghai (not fukien) in the east and, most importantly, canton (not yunnan) in the south. adjust the border so that it is canton (currently yunnan) that has the sea link to the philippine islands.

Done, done, and done.

Outstanding gameplay concerns? My sense is that we've finally landed on a good way to represent the Trading Companies in terms of how they'll play.
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:18 am

The wording of the Trading Co attack rule needs to be clarified...
map wrote:Imperial States may attack their Trading Co's. Trading Co's and Colonies of like flag may bombard - but not occupy - each other.

It currently reads as if Nigeria could bombard India...

Perhaps changing it to something like:
"Only Imperial States can take control of their Trading Co's. The Fleets and corresponding Colonies may bombard - but not occupy - each other.
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PB: 2661 | He's blue... If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that
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Re: Eastern Hemisphere: latest on pg 10 [I]

Postby oaktown on Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:11 pm

MrBenn wrote:The wording of the Trading Co attack rule needs to be clarified...


Good catch Benny. What if I clarified the wording a bit AND spelled it out visually? I don't think anybody can screw this up:

Click image to enlarge.
image


It's a little busy down there, so I'll explore ways of setting the legend in its own box.
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