San Marino [Quenched]

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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:36 pm

obliterationX wrote:Thank you very much for this map, Ruben Cassar! :) As you can see, I've enjoyed some freestyle speed games on this map already. The bonus system appeals to me a lot, not to mention that the map is a great size (and very playable!).


I'm glad you like it mate! ;)
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:26 am

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Re: San Marino [Beta] - wrong name on XML

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:45 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:Grazie amico. Ma tu non dormi mai? :p


No , thenobodies80 is always here! ;)
Sleep is useless...i try to sleep less i can, there's too much to do in life to sleep. :lol:

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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Sasky on Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:46 am

Excellent map. Very well done.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby ahote on Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:54 pm

Hi,

Don't know if this is the right place for this, but the San Marino map has a Pearl harbour problem. The size of the bonus territories means that often one of the players starts with a bonus and can then either kill the other person's potential bonus (by taking a torri, say) or can extend his bonus easily.

Not sure what the answer is, but maybe by making the bonus territories larger, so that the chances of someone starting with 6 troops is reduced.

Just my thoughts.

The present case almost always leads to the one who goes first, winning.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:55 am

ahote wrote:Hi,

Don't know if this is the right place for this, but the San Marino map has a Pearl harbour problem. The size of the bonus territories means that often one of the players starts with a bonus and can then either kill the other person's potential bonus (by taking a torri, say) or can extend his bonus easily.

Not sure what the answer is, but maybe by making the bonus territories larger, so that the chances of someone starting with 6 troops is reduced.

Just my thoughts.

The present case almost always leads to the one who goes first, winning.


Are you talking about 1vs1? Because I think in team games, especially triples and quads it's much more difficult to get the bonuses.

The bonuses are easy to attack though once conquered...maybe your game was just bad luck or a bad drop.

However if many think the bonuses are too easy to hold a possible solution could be making the torri regions start with 1 or 2 neutral units on them.

What do other people think? Is this necessary or is the map fine as it is?
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:22 am

You could add starting position tags for the Torri, so that they are evenly distributed? Although I'm not convinced it's a really big problem so far??
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:25 am

MrBenn wrote:You could add starting position tags for the Torri, so that they are evenly distributed? Although I'm not convinced it's a really big problem so far??


Hmm...I did not know that was possible with the XML. You mean each player gets an even amount of torri regions at the start?

Although I think it would be better to make them neutral. However I want to see if there is the need for this change or not. Maybe I should make a poll?
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby ahote on Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:49 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:
Are you talking about 1vs1? Because I think in team games, especially triples and quads it's much more difficult to get the bonuses.

The bonuses are easy to attack though once conquered...maybe your game was just bad luck or a bad drop.

However if many think the bonuses are too easy to hold a possible solution could be making the torri regions start with 1 or 2 neutral units on them.

What do other people think? Is this necessary or is the map fine as it is?


The solutions with the torri regions could work and yes, sorry, I was talking just about the 1 on 1 situation. I like the map when more players are involved and having said that, I should just probably stfu and not play one on one games on it :-)

Thanks for taking the time to reply - I didn't expect that quite frankly!
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:47 pm

ahote wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:
Are you talking about 1vs1? Because I think in team games, especially triples and quads it's much more difficult to get the bonuses.

The bonuses are easy to attack though once conquered...maybe your game was just bad luck or a bad drop.

However if many think the bonuses are too easy to hold a possible solution could be making the torri regions start with 1 or 2 neutral units on them.

What do other people think? Is this necessary or is the map fine as it is?


The solutions with the torri regions could work and yes, sorry, I was talking just about the 1 on 1 situation. I like the map when more players are involved and having said that, I should just probably stfu and not play one on one games on it :-)

Thanks for taking the time to reply - I didn't expect that quite frankly!


Thanks for your feedback ahote.

I am considering the neutral option but I would like to have some feedback from other people about this as well...and as you can see it's hard to get feedback these days.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby oaktown on Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:13 pm

i admit to not having spent much time playing this map so I won't speak to what you should do, but as for what you can do... yes, it would be possible to set up the code so that territories are split up in two and/or three player games. You could code three start positions so it would only affect 2 and 3 player games - if there are more than three players the start positions would be ignored.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:16 pm

oaktown wrote:i admit to not having spent much time playing this map so I won't speak to what you should do, but as for what you can do... yes, it would be possible to set up the code so that territories are split up in two and/or three player games. You could code three start positions so it would only affect 2 and 3 player games - if there are more than three players the start positions would be ignored.


Thanks for the feedback oak. I think Ben suggested that earlier.

However I think the problem might be present even in doubles (2v2) games. That's why I am opting for the neutrals. Maybe I'll put a poll up to gauge the opinion of other players as well.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:33 pm

Okay I put up a poll with 4 options. It will run for 30 days. That should be ample time.

Like in every decent democracy I will see what the other have to say and then (of course) at the end I will completely ignore whatever the others say and decide what I want. :mrgreen:
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:01 pm

i play some games on your map.

I love it!

I think that if a player starts with the lower left zone could have an advantage.
But on the whole i like your map, there's some different way to take the victory.
And a bit of luck ;)
i suggest you to set 1 neutral.

(I only played 1 vs 1 game)

But if you like leave the map as it is now!
It's funny :D

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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Blitzaholic on Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:38 pm

There should be 3 neutrals on every torri region to avoid players who start first from gaining an unfair advantage


this is my feedback ruben ;)

awesome map by the way
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:58 pm

Blitzaholic wrote:There should be 3 neutrals on every torri region to avoid players who start first from gaining an unfair advantage


this is my feedback ruben ;)

awesome map by the way


I think the neutrals would be good for the gameplay although they would make the map too small for quads.

However I believe 2 neutrals should be enough.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby saaimen on Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:41 am

Nice map, Ruben!
I'm gonna do some nitpicking again :) Don't know whether this has been discussed before, I'm sorry if it has.
How did you choose the order of the region names for you legend? Clockwise, I'm guessing?
I was very confused when I first saw it. IMHO, it would be more logical to place them more like their actual location on the map.
A suggestion:

Code: Select all
Acquaviva               Serravalle 

Città di                Borgo Maggiore
San Marino
                        Domagnano
Chiesanuova
                        Faetano
Fiorentino
                        Montegiardino


... or something like it. Hope you get my point :)
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:32 am

saaimen wrote:Nice map, Ruben!
I'm gonna do some nitpicking again :) Don't know whether this has been discussed before, I'm sorry if it has.
How did you choose the order of the region names for you legend? Clockwise, I'm guessing?
I was very confused when I first saw it. IMHO, it would be more logical to place them more like their actual location on the map.
A suggestion:

Code: Select all
Acquaviva               Serravalle 

Città di                Borgo Maggiore
San Marino
                        Domagnano
Chiesanuova
                        Faetano
Fiorentino
                        Montegiardino


... or something like it. Hope you get my point :)


Sorry but I'm not doing any of those changes at this stage.

I will try to improve the gameplay though with that neutral option.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby saaimen on Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:47 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:Sorry but I'm not doing any of those changes at this stage.

I will try to improve the gameplay though with that neutral option.

Why not :-s ?
It's bèta...
Does anyone back up my point, or doesn't it make sense to you guys?
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:09 am

The purpose of the Beta Phase is iron out any gameplay glitches (such as occurred on Das Schloss), and to ensure that there are no significant flaws affecting the way games play (missing connections in XML; imbalanced gameplay). It's a failsafe to the foundry process, rather than a time for nitpicking - the nitpicking should come before the map is quenched.

If you get yourself signed up onto the review mailing lists (threads in Not Maps subforum), then you'll be alerted when maps are earlier on in the development process ;-)
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:10 am

saaimen wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:Sorry but I'm not doing any of those changes at this stage.

I will try to improve the gameplay though with that neutral option.

Why not :-s ?
It's bèta...
Does anyone back up my point, or doesn't it make sense to you guys?


Ben has already answered you on this one.

However on a personal note, even if you would have mentioned this before in the development stage I would not have agreed with you. I prefer the regions to be listed in a clockwise order, as you said earlier. Just because you prefer them in another way it does not mean I would have changed it, this is just a matter of personal taste not an improvement per se.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby saaimen on Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:38 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:However on a personal note, even if you would have mentioned this before in the development stage I would not have agreed with you. I prefer the regions to be listed in a clockwise order, as you said earlier. Just because you prefer them in another way it does not mean I would have changed it, this is just a matter of personal taste not an improvement per se.

Ok, no problem :) I just wasn't sure whether it was a deliberate choice.
I'm not asking you to change it just for the sake of my opinion. I just thought I'd bring it up and see if anyone feels the same.
MrBenn wrote:The purpose of the Beta Phase is iron out any gameplay glitches (such as occurred on Das Schloss), and to ensure that there are no significant flaws affecting the way games play (missing connections in XML; imbalanced gameplay). It's a failsafe to the foundry process, rather than a time for nitpicking - the nitpicking should come before the map is quenched.

If you get yourself signed up onto the review mailing lists (threads in Not Maps subforum), then you'll be alerted when maps are earlier on in the development process ;-)

Maybe I'll do that :) I know I'm not making myself popular by coming to nitpick on all bèta maps when I haven't been around before that.
It's just that keeping up with the development of all (or most) maps takes a lot more time than bringing up a few issues that catch my eye when the map is in bèta stage. After all, you wouldn't expect everyone to keep up with all of the Foundry, right? I think bèta is the time when people who are not so involved in the Foundry forums can give their opinion and maybe bring up some very important criticisms.
If they're small changes that can make a big difference, why should they not be welcomed when a map is 'already' in bèta?

ADDED:
Just to give you an example, cairnswk did welcome my graphics suggestion for his Ottoman Empire map when it was already bèta'd O:)
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:15 am

Hi again Saaimen.

Don't get me wrong...your post was appreciated. It's just that I don't think that a change is necessary in that particular area. It's just a matter of personal taste.

When someone brought up the gameplay issue while in beta I gave it some thought and decided that it could be an important issue even though no one apart from him commented on it. In fact a change to the gameplay will be implemented to the map to try to improve its balance.

On a side note, it would help to bring these issues up during development and not when a map is finished. It's hard work finishing a map and people don't like to make changes once it's finished.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby yeti_c on Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:50 am

XML Updated and checked to now have all torri territories start as 2 neutral.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/1/19/1707364/San_Marino.xml

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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:52 am

yeti_c wrote:XML Updated and checked to now have all torri territories start as 2 neutral.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/1/19/1707364/San_Marino.xml

C.


Thanks Yeti.

I will send the updated XML to Lack.
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