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Re: FRANCE 18th century [I] v07 may19

Postby pamoa on Wed May 21, 2008 7:57 am

nagerous wrote:... I actually think it looks really good graphically etc. I'm just suggesting that there is the potential to hit a roadblock via the fact that the map has marked similarities to the other French map. I wasn't suggesting super complicated, I just thought a few more tricks could be sneaked in and it would make the map a more exciting prospect to play. :)

What kind of tricks ?
De gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
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Re: FRANCE 18th century [I] v07 may19

Postby pamoa on Wed May 21, 2008 8:07 am

bryguy wrote:1) The river annoys me right now as is, could u change it?
2) You can hardly tell the venaissin belings where it does, cause it doesnt even touch its territ
3) Same for Foix
4) And maybe Nice
5) And could u make Roussillon and Corse (or is it Gorse?) touch there territs?

What does bother you with rivers? Consider that I wanted the map to geographically correct so rivers are sometimes impassable borders and sometimes crossable by a bridge or being at the center of a territory. Then they should flow until sea and for me they are part of the graphical definition of the map as i removed any other background.

About the names touching the borders I'm really not sure about that, it will "blur" the borders. It's a pretty common way to put names on a map, putting then on the side of the object designated as I can not put them inside. And drawing a line or an arrow are absolutely contradictory with kind or graphic theme I'm trying to devellop.
But I'll keep in mind your remark and if they are other like this i'll try to find a solution.
De gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
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Re: FRANCE 18th century [I] v07 may19

Postby nagerous on Wed May 21, 2008 8:09 am

pamoa wrote:
nagerous wrote:... I actually think it looks really good graphically etc. I'm just suggesting that there is the potential to hit a roadblock via the fact that the map has marked similarities to the other French map. I wasn't suggesting super complicated, I just thought a few more tricks could be sneaked in and it would make the map a more exciting prospect to play. :)

What kind of tricks ?


Well its up to you how it will affect gameplay but stuff like one way attacks, links from area to area via a shipping line, bonuses for holding castles that kinda malarky.
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Re: FRANCE 18th century [I] v07 may19

Postby pamoa on Wed May 21, 2008 11:00 am

nagerous wrote:
pamoa wrote:
nagerous wrote:... I actually think it looks really good graphically etc. I'm just suggesting that there is the potential to hit a roadblock via the fact that the map has marked similarities to the other French map. I wasn't suggesting super complicated, I just thought a few more tricks could be sneaked in and it would make the map a more exciting prospect to play. :)

What kind of tricks ?

Well its up to you how it will affect gameplay but stuff like one way attacks, links from area to area via a shipping line, bonuses for holding castles that kinda malarky.

I'll think about it
De gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
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Re: FRANCE 18th century [I] v07 may19

Postby ZeakCytho on Wed May 21, 2008 8:06 pm

Please don't put any tricks/gimicks into this map. It's great as it is now.
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Re: FRANCE 18th century [I] v07 may19

Postby Ruben Cassar on Thu May 22, 2008 3:32 am

ZeakCytho wrote:Please don't put any tricks/gimicks into this map. It's great as it is now.


I agree. Just the capital starting as neutral is enough for this one.

Besides just looking at the latest bunch of 5 or 6 new maps to get quenched I realised that not even one of them has classic gameplay so we need some new maps to cater for this area as well.
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Re: FRANCE 18th century [I] v07 may19

Postby pamoa on Thu May 22, 2008 3:58 am

nagerous wrote:It would be nice to throw in more gimmicks, cairns style. At the moment the map doesn't seem that appealing to play, just because it is so similar to the current France map. If it's going to be set in the 1789. maybe add a few more tricks within the map, to make it more exciting and playable, as otherwise people will just stick to playing the classic France map.
I actually think it looks really good graphically etc. I'm just suggesting that there is the potential to hit a roadblock via the fact that the map has marked similarities to the other French map. I wasn't suggesting super complicated, I just thought a few more tricks could be sneaked in and it would make the map a more exciting prospect to play. :) stuff like one way attacks, links from area to area via a shipping line, bonuses for holding castles that kinda malarky.
Ruben Cassar wrote:
ZeakCytho wrote:Please don't put any tricks/gimicks into this map. It's great as it is now.

I agree. Just the capital starting as neutral is enough for this one. Besides just looking at the latest bunch of 5 or 6 new maps to get quenched I realised that not even one of them has classic gameplay so we need some new maps to cater for this area as well.

2 to 1 in the game tricks or not issue, I'll wait to see how it goes!
De gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
Gules an open tower silver, crenellated three parts, topped by a apertured turret, crenellated two parts
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Re: FRANCE 18th century [I] v07 may19

Postby Ruben Cassar on Thu May 22, 2008 12:48 pm

pamoa wrote:2 to 1 in the game tricks or not issue, I'll wait to see how it goes!


I don't think it should boil down to that. These things are something a map maker decides and defines at the start when he is planning a map without making major changes in this department as the map develops.
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VACATION UNTIL JUNE 15

Postby pamoa on Fri May 23, 2008 12:14 pm

As map editor I will be on vacation until june 15 8-)
De gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v07 [I] may22 p5

Postby TaCktiX on Thu May 29, 2008 6:39 pm

Keep with the classic gameplay. A mere difference in impassables and a capital bonus are enough to gameplay-wise distinguish this map from the present France. As Ruben has said, we need to deliver some classic maps to the masses after our last glut of complex maps.
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v07 [I] may22 p5

Postby gimil on Fri May 30, 2008 10:42 am

TaCktiX wrote:Keep with the classic gameplay. A mere difference in impassables and a capital bonus are enough to gameplay-wise distinguish this map from the present France. As Ruben has said, we need to deliver some classic maps to the masses after our last glut of complex maps.


No we dont, if people want classic maps they should come in and make them ;)

If we are here to produce to please the masses then we should be paid to do so :)
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v07 [I] may22 p5

Postby TaCktiX on Fri May 30, 2008 2:42 pm

Well considering that pamoa started this map as a classic gameplay one, I think the choice has already been made. Some people are trying to change that choice for petty reasons.
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v07 [I] may22 p5

Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri May 30, 2008 4:46 pm

TaCktiX wrote:Well considering that pamoa started this map as a classic gameplay one, I think the choice has already been made. Some people are trying to change that choice for petty reasons.


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Re: FRANCE 18th century v07 [I] may22 p5

Postby pamoa on Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:08 am

Hi, I'm back on work.
I think that the more trick issue is closed as nobody argued anymore in that direction.
So I'll stick to the actual version of gameplay.
As soon as possible I'll release a new update but their is a lot of work waiting me here in office so it may take me a week.
I decided to change the paris bonus label as following:
Paris (*) Isle-de-France +1
Any other comments!
De gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v07 [I] june16 p5

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:06 am

As I told you in earlier posts the colour scheme needs to change. It's too hard to differentiate between a region and another with only that thin border of colouring.

Check my previous posts regarding this issue. You should try to fill the region with colour perhaps?
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v07 [I] june16 p5

Postby pamoa on Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:30 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:As I told you in earlier posts the colour scheme needs to change. It's too hard to differentiate between a region and another with only that thin border of colouring. Check my previous posts regarding this issue. You should try to fill the region with colour perhaps?


Sorry but it is one of the first decision I took when I started this map. Based on the 18th century way of doing map: White background, black borders and just a border of color for regions. Of course I could have choosen an other graphic chart but I'll stick to this one as I really like it and I'm sorry if you're not pleased with it.
De gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
Gules an open tower silver, crenellated three parts, topped by a apertured turret, crenellated two parts
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v07 [I] june16 p5

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:04 am

pamoa wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:As I told you in earlier posts the colour scheme needs to change. It's too hard to differentiate between a region and another with only that thin border of colouring. Check my previous posts regarding this issue. You should try to fill the region with colour perhaps?


Sorry but it is one of the first decision I took when I started this map. Based on the 18th century way of doing map: White background, black borders and just a border of color for regions. Of course I could have choosen an other graphic chart but I'll stick to this one as I really like it and I'm sorry if you're not pleased with it.


It's not a question of liking or not liking. Have you ever read the map guidelines? A map should be playable for all people on CC even people who are colour blind. The way you have decided to colour the different regions makes it extremely difficult for me to differentiate between a region and another. Besides even Andy has already told you to try something else in earlier posts if I'm not mistaken. You can't ignore these comments and move on.

I am quite surprised you are so adamant to change considering how you insisted I should change my colours on Cyprus, something that in fact I'm going to do to try to please you and others who wanted that change. Would you be happy to have a map that cannot be enjoyed by all the CC community? I'm sure that if you think a bit about it you'll change your mind. Don't get me wrong I like this map or else I wouldn't be commenting on it, but I want to be able to play it, and right now I can't.

Here is an extract from the guidelines in case you missed them. I highlighted the aspects which I feel you are not addressing.

"To earn your graphics stamp you must comply to the following conditions:

1) Image must present itself as clear and legible.
2) The aesthetics must be to a presentable foundry standard and must also satisfy the community at large.
3) Cartographers must ,where possible, reduce any disadvantage that can be caused to a colorblind individual."
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v07 [I] june16 p5

Postby gimil on Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:05 pm

pamoa if the colours are causing issues for the colour blind then it has to be addressed, sorry to be a ball buster but thats the way it is.
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v08 [I] june17 p5

Postby pamoa on Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:00 pm

I'm not ignoring the problem!
As you can see, I tried the map without colors and it seems to me it is playable even like this:
- regions borders can be clearly idendified as they appear "thicker",
- each different region can visually connected to the one in the minimap by it's position,
- the hatching is improving this differenciation of each region (it is a direct use of the heraldic hatching code for colors in balck and white printing)

Now, Rubben, it seems to me I adressed the problem and find a solution that should fit even fully colorblind people.
Maybe you don't like it on aesthetic point of view, but you must admit that on a practical one I did find a solution.
Click image to enlarge.
image
De gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v08 [I] june17 p5

Postby t-o-m on Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:08 pm

colour blind doesnt necessarily mean that they just see in black and white, i used the website that (i think) MrBenn suggested..

original:
Image

with Deuteranope Simulation:
Image

with Tritanope Simulation:
Image

i would have done the other one but seeing as this is taking up a lot of space already, and the other is a bit like the 1st, i will leave it out.
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v08 [I] june17 p5

Postby Ruben Cassar on Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:11 pm

Sorry but it's very difficult to read for me or else I wouldn't have said so would I?

I also made some suggestions in previous posts which you never tried out. Perhaps you could make it more similar to the mini map and fill more of the regions with colours. Also some of the colours in regions which are adjacent to one another look nearly the same to me.
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v08 [I] june17 p5

Postby t-o-m on Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:17 pm

i think the outer glow on the land is a bit too strong, maybe try making it spread further and turn the ocpacity down a touch?
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v08 [I] june17 p5

Postby gimil on Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:59 pm

go on add that touch of colour, you can achieve much better results without loosing what your going for overall. Go on, what do ya say? make ruben happy?

HERE IS MY EXAMPLE THAT I THINK YOU SHOULD GO WITH :)
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v08 [I] june17 p5

Postby t-o-m on Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:04 pm

i still think, even on your version gimil, that the outer glow on the land (closest to the land) is really still too strong for me.
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Re: FRANCE 18th century v08 [I] june17 p5

Postby gimil on Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:05 pm

t-o-m wrote:i still think, even on your version gimil, that the outer glow on the land (closest to the land) is really still too strong for me.


Its just a draft of the direction i think the map should go, dont look to far into it.
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