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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby Ditocoaf on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:57 pm

edbeard wrote:I like the roads because when we put cities, they can actually be in the spots they belong and not representing a larger area. I'm not saying the map NEEDS these roads and cities to be a good map. I think they do make these maps good though. The gameplay is good and like I said before, cities being in their actual spots is quite nice. There's no better way to represent these areas than by their major cities. And, when you separate by regions, you take away from that. Furthermore, this being a series of six maps, it's nice to have that one thing that separates it from other maps. The roads and cities do that.


Yeah, I'm liking the roads/cities thing more. But I still really think that the highway bonuses and capital bonuses should go away. The highway bonuses moreso than the capitals. All this is for the reasons I explained in my previous posts.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby WidowMakers on Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:28 am

RjBeals wrote:Honestly, I think you should not separate all the states. Keep them grouped. And I also don't like the highways. The graphic style is great.
What do you mean keep them grouped? Should I have less bonus groups? Or you just don't like the space in between.

The reason they are separate is so the text has room to fit.


yeti_c wrote:
WidowMakers wrote:1) Should I get rid of the roads and make the territories districts? With the same names of the cities but connected with borders not roads?


No I say keep them in - as long as you keep them a bit sublte (like currently) I wouldn't want all of the routes to be bonusable.
I plan on making them look better and less jagged. The roads will not all have bonuses. I just added interstates to add another level of gameplay and information. By the time people play these maps 3 times they will know each state capital and how to drive all over the USA.

yeti_c wrote:
WidowMakers wrote:2) Should I get rid of the other bonuses (Interstate and capitals)? Do they take away from the standard gameplay or are they needed to help change it up a bit.


Consider removing capitals - but again I think I like the extra interplay that gives away from the straight normal gameplay.

C.
As I stated above I wanted to make teh capitals an important thing on these maps. If we are going to have fun we might as well learn too. SO I added the STAR for the capitals. I figured that if there was a star graphic, there might as well be a bonus structure associated with it.

wcaclimbing wrote:I'm not a big fan of the cities+roads, but they seem to work ok here. I'd like it more if it was split into regular territories, so it is more similar to the USA map, but its not a big deal.

Just curious, are you making this with vectors?
I understand the roads are a departure from the current USA map. BUT... if i use regions instead of cities and roads, the map just does not work. If you look at TEXAS. There is a TON of room. Dividing the map into 6-7 regions of cities will not look right and feel right. That is why I went with the cities roads instead. Plus as I mentioned earlier, the map will be more realistic and representative of reality with cities and roads.

And yes I am using vectors. I used the pen tool in photoshop to trace each state in the USA map (and added a few ones that were ommited. wait to see teh NE and GL regions) By doing it this way, I will be able to scale the small map into the large map and will not lose any picture quality. Every part of the map (except the roads) is vector based and scalable for the large.


t-o-m wrote:is it me or does oklahoma not match its legend colour?

also this one is sadly my least faveourite of the maps, i dont relly like the green-ness
i also think there should be some kinda of texture** on the lengend and the highway and state capitals descriptions

**not really texture but the kind of style that you did on the land
I see that. I must have missed it when I was tweaking teh map. I will fix it later once we get the bigger picture items resolved. Same goes for the legend and other graphical aspects.

edbeard wrote:getting rid of the highways is a huge change in gameplay.

you couldn't split up the states like you have it now. I think it makes the whole series less interesting. the highways add another unique thing to these maps.

also, you couldn't really do the state capitals as you have done.


The whole series is really nice because you're using major highways and roads. You're also putting in relevant background symbols for these states. It adds a bit of education to the maps.
Thanks Ed. That is basically what I wanted to do; Make simple fun maps that allow a person to learn at the same time. I think the biggest issues we will have now is colors (Rockies Map) and what gameplay aspects are really needed. I think the current 3 should stay, but we can all discuss it.

Ditocoaf wrote:
edbeard wrote:getting rid of the highways is a huge change in gameplay.

you couldn't split up the states like you have it now. I think it makes the whole series less interesting. the highways add another unique thing to these maps.

I'm arguing that these maps don't need another unique thing, and in fact shouldn't have them. Almost all new maps are looking for something to make them more complex, but this means that there are very few maps with straight-standard gameplay. In fact, these maps would be more unique if they just had plain standard gameplay-- because it's so rare. Besides, the map shouldn't be that much more complex than the actual USA map. USA is just a plain, standard map.

I think just the cities/roads themselves (As opposed to borders) is fine. It looks like you're taking the USA map, and drawing the cities and roads on them for a more detailed look. However, the highway bonuses, and the capital bonuses, put in a whole overlapping bonuses thing that disconnects these from the parent map. Games will be complex enough, just through how people choose to strategize. Very few people complain that Classic is a boring map. And these maps are a sort of homage to the USA map, which is completely plain, yet nobody here thinks that it is a boring map.

Basically, the more that these feel like part of a series that INCLUDES the USA map, the better.
Thanks for the comments. This seems to be the biggest hurdle we need to cross before I continue.

1) Standard gameplay and bonus. Same as USA map only with cities and roads instead of states and borders
or
2) Standard gameplay and bonus + Bonus groups (capitals) + Overlapping bonuses (interstates/States and capitals)

We need to get this decided ASAP.


edbeard wrote:well it's good to have discussion on bonuses, but WM said he just put numbers on there and didn't actually think about the bonuses. So, I'd rather wait for him to finalize these maps before bonus talks start.
That is correct.

edbeard wrote:I like the roads because when we put cities, they can actually be in the spots they belong and not representing a larger area. I'm not saying the map NEEDS these roads and cities to be a good map. I think they do make these maps good though. The gameplay is good and like I said before, cities being in their actual spots is quite nice. There's no better way to represent these areas than by their major cities. And, when you separate by regions, you take away from that. Furthermore, this being a series of six maps, it's nice to have that one thing that separates it from other maps. The roads and cities do that.
I agree 100%. I touched on this earlier as well.

edbeard wrote:One other thing, I think it's already quite difficult to talk about the maps in one thread. Any thoughts to making separate threads?
In the first post I explained why I wanted to keep them all together. if an issue comes up in one thread that effects all maps, some peopel might not read that. Then I need to post in 6 threads about a possible change, then if someone doe snot understand why the change is needed or proposed I need to sen them to the thread where the issue arose. If all 6 maps and all issues with 6 maps are in 1 thread the everyone can follow them all. Anyone interested in one map will be interested in all 6. I will keep them together.

Unit_2 wrote:The Rockies are too blue...Its kinda hurts my eyes to look at them all plus the legand that is blue along with the background, its just too much. :?
Thanks unit_2. I figured someone would say something about the Rockies. I really don't know what to do. I want to keep the blue feel from the USA amp and keep the background feel as well. i really don't see any other choice. Are there any suggestions?

Thanks
WM
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby WidowMakers on Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:35 am

So things to do:

A) Agree on bonuses:
    Option 1) State / Interstate / Captial (current)
    Option 2) State / Capital
    Option 3) State Only

B) Agree on Territory Layout:
    Option 1) Cities and roads (current)
    Option 2) Regions and borders

C) Agree on Colors (territory):
    Option 1) Keep same color scheme as USA map based on region (current)
    Option 2) Switch up colors to help distinguish bonuses, regardless of region and current USA map colors

D) Agree on Territory Icons and Icon Colors:
    Option 1) Use symbols/icons that represent a resource / industry / wildlife / plant /state ?? and use those to help differentiate the state from others (current)
    Option 2) See (C). Switch up colors and have no icons.

After all of these get worked out I will update the map accordingly and we can than start to talk bonus values and border or road connection tweaks. I can then also finish teh last 2.5 maps (SE, GL and NE) and we can keep moving along.

So please post you comments
Thanks
WM
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby Ditocoaf on Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:37 am

WidowMakers wrote:
Ditocoaf wrote:
edbeard wrote:getting rid of the highways is a huge change in gameplay.

you couldn't split up the states like you have it now. I think it makes the whole series less interesting. the highways add another unique thing to these maps.

I'm arguing that these maps don't need another unique thing, and in fact shouldn't have them. Almost all new maps are looking for something to make them more complex, but this means that there are very few maps with straight-standard gameplay. In fact, these maps would be more unique if they just had plain standard gameplay-- because it's so rare. Besides, the map shouldn't be that much more complex than the actual USA map. USA is just a plain, standard map.

I think just the cities/roads themselves (As opposed to borders) is fine. It looks like you're taking the USA map, and drawing the cities and roads on them for a more detailed look. However, the highway bonuses, and the capital bonuses, put in a whole overlapping bonuses thing that disconnects these from the parent map. Games will be complex enough, just through how people choose to strategize. Very few people complain that Classic is a boring map. And these maps are a sort of homage to the USA map, which is completely plain, yet nobody here thinks that it is a boring map.

Basically, the more that these feel like part of a series that INCLUDES the USA map, the better.
Thanks for the comments. This seems to be the biggest hurdle we need to cross before I continue.

1) Standard gameplay and bonus. Same as USA map only with cities and roads instead of states and borders
or
2) Standard gameplay and bonus + Bonus groups (capitals) + Overlapping bonuses (interstates/States and capitals)

We need to get this decided ASAP.

Make a poll, with a link to my post above, and someone else arguing the other side. Or just go with my opinion ;) .


I hope I didn't come off too angry above. I think this project is awesome, which is why I care about it enough to get worked up. These maps already look quenchable, and this has to be one of the best ideas to go through the foundry in a while. Plus, the backgrounds look like my avatar :D .
Last edited by Ditocoaf on Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby Ditocoaf on Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:40 am

WidowMakers wrote:A) Agree on bonuses:
    Option 1) State / Interstate / Captial (current)
    Option 2) State / Capital
    Option 3) State Only

B) Agree on Territory Layout:
    Option 1) Cities and roads (current)
    Option 2) Regions and borders

C) Agree on Colors (territory):
    Option 1) Keep same color scheme as USA map based on region (current)
    Option 2) Switch up colors to help distinguish bonuses, regardless of region and current USA map colors

D) Agree on Territory Icons and Icon Colors:
    Option 1) Use symbols/icons that represent a resource / industry / wildlife / plant /state ?? and use those to help differentiate the state from others (current)
    Option 2) See (C). Switch up colors and have no icons.

My votes:

A:3
B:1
C:1
D:1

C and D can be merged: Do you want different colors, or different patterns (current)?
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby ZeakCytho on Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:01 am

I agree with basically everything Ditocoaf said.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby yeti_c on Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:38 am

My votes:

A:1
B:1
C:1
D:1 (This must stay at 1 - as this also "CB proogs" your maps.)

C.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby WidowMakers on Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:53 am

yeti_c wrote:My votes:

A:1
B:1
C:1
D:1 (This must stay at 1 - as this also "CB proogs" your maps.)

C.
What???
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby yeti_c on Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:01 am

WidowMakers wrote:
yeti_c wrote:My votes:

A:1
B:1
C:1
D:1 (This must stay at 1 - as this also "CB proogs" your maps.)

C.
What???


Scuse the typo - that was meant to be "CB Proofs" - i.e. Colourblind Proofs!

C.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:50 pm

I agree with some of the earlier sentiments about the cities and roads...regarding them as a "closer look of the USA map." I like 'em.


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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby fireedud on Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:53 pm

For all the freeways, highways, etc. It might help if you put the sign on the road like in the legend. (E.G. put the sign and the number 80 on route 80).
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby dittoeevee8888 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:44 pm

WidowMakers wrote:So things to do:

A) Agree on bonuses:
    Option 1) State / Interstate / Captial (current)
    Option 2) State / Capital
    Option 3) State Only

B) Agree on Territory Layout:
    Option 1) Cities and roads (current)
    Option 2) Regions and borders

C) Agree on Colors (territory):
    Option 1) Keep same color scheme as USA map based on region (current)
    Option 2) Switch up colors to help distinguish bonuses, regardless of region and current USA map colors

D) Agree on Territory Icons and Icon Colors:
    Option 1) Use symbols/icons that represent a resource / industry / wildlife / plant /state ?? and use those to help differentiate the state from others (current)
    Option 2) See (C). Switch up colors and have no icons.

After all of these get worked out I will update the map accordingly and we can than start to talk bonus values and border or road connection tweaks. I can then also finish teh last 2.5 maps (SE, GL and NE) and we can keep moving along.

So please post you comments
Thanks
WM


My votes:
A) 2
B) 1
C) 1 (though probably could change the rockies to make a little more purpley so that it's not too blue)
D) 1
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby Keredrex on Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:54 pm

Awesoome DO IT.... Have you done North And South East Yet?
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack

Postby WidowMakers on Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:21 pm

Keredrex wrote:Awesoome DO IT.... Have you done North And South East Yet?
I have the basic layout done but I don't want to finish them until we get gameplay sorted out. I think I will setup a poll and see where that goes.

WM

EDIT: The gameplay BONUS poll is up and going for 7 days. Please vote so we can get a good idea of the direction we should be heading. Also please feel free to post why you voted a particular way.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby Optimus Prime on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:45 am

I voted to have the State Bonuses and Capital Bonuses, but no highway bonuses. I think the two options is plenty without really complicating the gameplay too much on these maps which will be small.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby BrianHoef on Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:42 pm

I really like this; I'd play these maps now.

A:1
B:1
C:1
D:1

Regarding the Rockies map being "too blue," it just made me think cold and wintry, which is appropriate. I wouldn't call it a problem.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby WidowMakers on Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:29 pm

Vote People Vote!!!!!
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby Lone.prophet on Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:05 am

to start with, nice idea, ofcourse graphics needs to be better but not worried about that,

and i miss the vote for state+interstate and no capital bonus. cause thats what i would like to see :)
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby WidowMakers on Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:27 am

Lone.prophet wrote:to start with, nice idea, ofcourse graphics needs to be better but not worried about that,

and i miss the vote for state+interstate and no capital bonus. cause thats what i would like to see :)
That is because I don't want that one. :D If there are two bonuses it will be the capital not the interstate. That is why that option does not exist.

The maps are more informative with capitals. Not that that is a primary goal or anything but I have learned quite a bit about geography from CC. I don't see any reason these maps should be different. I know that people outside USA might not care. But I think that these can only help people int eh USA who don't have a clue about all of the capitals (myself included)

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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby mibi on Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:03 am

The capital of Louisiana is Baton Rouge.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby Ditocoaf on Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:53 am

Yes to state capitals: 9+8=17
No to state capitals: 3

Yes to interstate: 9
No to interstate: 3+8= 11

So far the poll says yes to state capitals, no to interstate bonuses. I voted for option number three, but w/e. As long as there's not the overlapping interstate bonuses... ;)
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby Ditocoaf on Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:54 am

Another reason to not have the interstate bonus: They'll be so hard to hold, all stretched out like that, that you'll really only be able to hold them if you're a indestructible force already.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby WidowMakers on Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:04 am

mibi wrote:The capital of Louisiana is Baton Rouge.

Thanks. I have no idea how I did that.
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby Natewolfman on Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:24 am

Love this idea, and thank you 100% from those of us who work in the tourny area prodominantly.

I voted option 2,

REASON: interstate bonus makes the maps slightly more complex, not alot, but enough that i feel takes away from the original USA map which is your basic continent bonus only type map...

MAJOR PROBLEM : [rant] lol, ok this is a personal thing but... in Nebraska... I live in Omaha... and yet maps like the rockies here, and dust bowl ALWAYS seem to forget this city... even though its a million person city, AND 1/3 of our states entire population is in this city :evil: lol, always annoys me that people thing "nebraska? you must be a farmer" lol, then when our big city gets missed... *lame* [/rant]

that aside i 100% LOVE the idea! cant wait for it to come out :D :D
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Re: USA 6 Region Map Pack - BONUS POLL OPEN

Postby barterer2002 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:31 am

Great idea here WM. To comment on an earlier concern that this would preclude making state specific maps-I have to disagree. As a TO I would love to have a tourney where we progress from cities (NYC, Chicago, San Fran, Puget and more more more) to states to regions to USA (and maybe beyond to N Am and 2.1). From my point of view, the more maps the better.

I can go either way on the interstate bonus, I voted in favor but it wouldn't really matter to me either way but I do like the caps bonus.

If you really wanted to make S E divisible by 8 you could take out 4 of the less major cities (Decatur AL, West Palm Beach FL, Grenada MS, Wilmington NC would be my choices) on the other hand I like the varied aspect of the number of terts (24-40 (or will Great Lakes get up to 48 or 56?)

As a concept I like the idea and the only reason I can think of that I wouldn't use it in a tournament is that there are too many others running similar tourneys.
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