War of the Triple Alliance

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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby InkL0sed on Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:44 pm

ZeakCytho wrote:Maybe I'm being dense, but is there a reason Rio de la Plata can attack/be attacked by the capitals?


Yes, they're basically fighting over it...
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby oaktown on Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:52 pm

InkL0sed wrote:
ZeakCytho wrote:Maybe I'm being dense, but is there a reason Rio de la Plata can attack/be attacked by the capitals?


Yes, they're basically fighting over it...


Right. And note that they are all port cities.

A bonus for holding the capitals is totally something I would do on a map (see Scotland) but in this case I'm trying to go classic gameplay.

Gran Chaco began without a bonus, but when I added a third territory it seemed a waste of space - makes for an awful place to start, and why engage there? I think the +1 is appropriate - less than Uruguay, whic is the same size and has the same number of borders.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby pepperonibread on Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:06 pm

It took me a long time to find the Rio de la Plata mentioned in the legend. Maybe it's just me, but could something be done to distinguish this from the other army circles (besides it being in the water)?
Anyway, I like the contour lines off the coast. They're... Indochina-ish. How'd you end up making them? I experimented with something similar awhile ago, I figured I could select the land then go Select > Modify > Expand. That worked for me, though I remember hearing that WM did it another way.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby oaktown on Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:43 pm

pepperonibread wrote:It took me a long time to find the Rio de la Plata mentioned in the legend. Maybe it's just me, but could something be done to distinguish this from the other army circles (besides it being in the water)?

I'll think about that... a boat maybe?

pepperonibread wrote:Anyway, I like the contour lines off the coast. They're... Indochina-ish. How'd you end up making them? I experimented with something similar awhile ago, I figured I could select the land then go Select > Modify > Expand. That worked for me, though I remember hearing that WM did it another way.

I copied the paths of the each coast and created a new path that would be the first line out on each side. I sized them up a little, and bumped them out from the coasts. Then I went in and flattened them slightly by bumping a few anchor points in or out and just deleting a lot of points - the west coast path is probably 50 anchor points, the last line probably less than 20. Once the first one was done I copied the new path and repeated the process for the second path, etc. The first lines on each side are in the same layer, but each set going out is a new layer; each layer out has a slightly lower opacity - i think they're like 45, 35, 25, 15 or so.

Don't know how wid did his - he probably did something much easier than I did, but too late. The flattening out of each line was easy but kinda tedious - next time I might just draw new ones. ;)
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby ZeakCytho on Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:15 am

InkL0sed wrote:
ZeakCytho wrote:Maybe I'm being dense, but is there a reason Rio de la Plata can attack/be attacked by the capitals?


Yes, they're basically fighting over it...


Oh. Does it say that somewhere?

Paraguay is typo'd in the legend.

Some thoughts on bonuses:
Goyaz is four territories with 3 borders for a +2. I think +3 might be more in order, considering Paraguay has the same number of territories and borders and has a +3. Or seal off one of the borders. If you extend the mountains from San Felis and Bahia Ocidental, the +2 for Goyaz is a bit more justified and I think Brasil Este can stay as a +4.

I think Brazil Sudeste should be a +5. 5 terrories, 5 borders. You need men on every single one - this will be hard to take and hold.

Argentine Republic could go up to +7, since it's almost impossible to hold. 11 territories, 3 borders. Maybe not, though, since it has so few borders.

Gran Chaco and Uruguay have the same number of territories and borders, so they should have the same bonus, no? I'd favor +1 over +2, personally.

Maybe give a bonus for holding all capitals + Rio de la Plata? That's 5 territories, 4 borders, so +3? Or +2, if you'd like another smaller bonus.

Graphically, some of the mountains look a bit off. Mostly when a border crosses them. Look at the northern border of Rio Xingu where the mountains go over it. I think the mountains should hide the border, no? The same thing happens by Cordillera Gera/Cuiaba.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby Androidz on Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:45 am

Maybe give a bonus for holding all capitals + Rio de la Plata? That's 5 territories, 4 borders, so +3? Or +2, if you'd like another smaller bonus


What about this?:

1 Capital = 0
2 Capitals = 1
3 Capitals = 3
4 Capitals = 5
All Capitals = 7
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby pamoa on Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:17 pm

Again a very cool map by oaktown! =D>
I'll watch more closely later...
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby Hatchman on Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:34 pm

Quite stunning Oaktown 8-)
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby MrBenn on Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:27 pm

Androidz wrote:
Maybe give a bonus for holding all capitals + Rio de la Plata? That's 5 territories, 4 borders, so +3? Or +2, if you'd like another smaller bonus


What about this?:

1 Capital = 0
2 Capitals = 1
3 Capitals = 3
4 Capitals = 5
All Capitals = 7

I think Oak has already made it quite clear that he is going for classic gameplay, which means no capital bonusses ;-)
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby Androidz on Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:32 pm

MrBenn wrote:
Androidz wrote:
Maybe give a bonus for holding all capitals + Rio de la Plata? That's 5 territories, 4 borders, so +3? Or +2, if you'd like another smaller bonus


What about this?:

1 Capital = 0
2 Capitals = 1
3 Capitals = 3
4 Capitals = 5
All Capitals = 7

I think Oak has already made it quite clear that he is going for classic gameplay, which means no capital bonusses ;-)


hmm to bad:D i personally think it will still look like classic, and since its so easy to border captialts to end continents. They should be worth something.
Last edited by Androidz on Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby ZeakCytho on Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:35 pm

MrBenn wrote:
Androidz wrote:
Maybe give a bonus for holding all capitals + Rio de la Plata? That's 5 territories, 4 borders, so +3? Or +2, if you'd like another smaller bonus


What about this?:

1 Capital = 0
2 Capitals = 1
3 Capitals = 3
4 Capitals = 5
All Capitals = 7

I think Oak has already made it quite clear that he is going for classic gameplay, which means no capital bonusses ;-)


But making a continent out of all the capitals and Rio de la Plata is not out of the question, is it? Because Rio de la Plata borders each capital, it's a contiguous continent with five territories and four borders. Hardly non-classic gameplay.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby whitestazn88 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:05 pm

he said he didn't want captial bonuses... its been brought up and shut down before
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby Androidz on Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:08 pm

whitestazn88 wrote:he said he didn't want captial bonuses... its been brought up and shut down before


Well it wouldent hurt voteing for it...i dont think capital bonuses will destroy the gameplay since its should be pretty hard to hold on. If you get the captials you should be awarded for your hard work if you actully maintain holding them..
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 11 on pg. 4

Postby oaktown on Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:47 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image

No gameplay changes, but I'm open to further discussion about bonuses. I really don't want to give a Capitals bonus - a bunch of maps already do that, and I'd like to keep this as classic as possible. And I'm not too hung up on keeping the bonus formula entirely standard across this map as I'd like to give preference to the the key battle areas in this map, namely Paraguay. The Chaco area was little more than desert, and so historically it shouldn't have the value of Uruguay, even though it is of similar size.

As there has been some confusion around the role played by Rio de la Plata, I have both included a reference in the history passage and come up with a frigate of the era that represents on the map and in the legend.

As for the borders showing through the mountains - that was just me being careless with my layers. I did a quick fix in a few areas, hiding the problem rather than solving it. :oops:
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby iancanton on Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:20 am

on reading the blurb for this map, my first impression is that the odds in this war were so ridiculous that one can't help but wonder at paraguay's optimism.

should there be a second double-headed arrow from igatim to corrientes, since this attack was what brought argentina into the war? to compensate for the extra border, an impassable river (rio bermejo or vermejo?) between corrientes and llanos de manso can be shown.

to focus the play more on the areas that saw some action during the conflict, i'd have been tempted to make the map, which looks great, classic-sized (42 to 44 territories) by losing brasil este continent (the only blue one in an otherwise-green brazil) - filling the space with illustrations of one or two of the personalities involved - and merging all of the northern matto grosso territories (a quiet area for gameplay), which i understand were largely undeveloped indian tribal areas, into one. presentationally, the brazilian continents can then be grouped together in the legend. however, u've already eliminated two brazilian continents, so i imagine u'll be loath remove brasil este too.

the ship stands out well enough against the water without being intrusive. stick with the classic-style bonuses for the time being and let's see how things develop.

ian. :)
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby pamoa on Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:52 am

Spelling:
- shouldn't it be República Argentina rather than the english version?
- why didn't you put the accent on the other names? maybe ask Marvaddin for correction

Graphics:
- maybe you can put the bonus number just after the region name (Rio Grande do Sul +3). So your legend box could be a bit shorter and any player immediately knows each region bonus.

Again great graphics, you're a master. =D>
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:14 pm

oaktown...first time i've looked in on this one...fantastic. Agree with "Master" comment from pamoa. (perhaps i should start learning Photoshop ;) )

couple of points.
1. is there any way you can alter the boldness of the region names i.e. Argentine Republic, or better place them so that they aren't so prominent and blend more into the background
2. i know this is large size, but i'm concerned that the legend might no be so readable when the size is reduced.

i'll look again later, but it looks fantastic. :)
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby oaktown on Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:34 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


Above suggestions made... region titles lighter, Argetina renamed, bonuses closer to names. And I've sepia toned everything just a bit - the colors were getting to me.

I also put some silly silhouettes in the legend to give color, let me know if you like any or all of those images. The revolvers are actually the right era, but they look too new somehow - probably because the basic shape of a revolver hasn't changed much in the past 150 years.

As for scaling back the size of the map yet again, I personally think we have plenty of 36-44 territory classic maps. So I'd like the keep the size up, but I'm not opposed to losing some of the northern land. I was just thinking that the two things this maps needs are:
1. more impassables that make some of these territories easier to hold, and
2. more territories in the regions that saw action, namely Paraguay, Matto Grosso, Uruguay, and Argentina.

Here's the map shrunk down to 600 pixels for size... the legend, as cairns noted, is indeed a bit squeezed, but it's stil quite readable. I'll be fussing with the sizing of everything.

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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby whitestazn88 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:02 am

you could possibly move the whole playing area a little to the left... it wouldn't hurt, especially since all you've got there is a picture and some mountains

that way the legend can be made a tiny bit bigger?
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby yeti_c on Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:43 am

Oak - are these colours OK for Colourblind people? I notice a lot of similar greens next to each other...

I know that you are CB - so I can only assume that they are fine - but just wanted to get your confirmation!!

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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby pamoa on Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:09 am

yeti_c wrote:Oak - are these colours OK for Colourblind people? I notice a lot of similar greens next to each other...

Same color but different tonality are better than different color but same tonality, for a colorblind they could look the same.
That's why it's difficult to understand, as for us different colors are obviously ... different!
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby oaktown on Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:28 pm

pamoa wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Oak - are these colours OK for Colourblind people? I notice a lot of similar greens next to each other...

Same color but different tonality are better than different color but same tonality, for a colorblind they could look the same.
That's why it's difficult to understand, as for us different colors are obviously ... different!

pamoa's right, and these colors work for me... that doesn't mean they work everybody who is colorblind, though.

I'm open to changing the colors around - this began as all shades of green, and when I added the other countries left brazil in green and assigned different colors to the other countries.

Honestly, I'm not really sure where to go with this map right now. There are things I can change in terms of region arrangement to make it more historically accurate, but I'm not sure it will improve play any. What I really think it needs most are more room for the army circles, and additional impassables to give players some borders to hold.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 13 on pg. 6

Postby pamoa on Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:48 am

about gameplay I would say brazil sud este is way too open, all 5 territ are "under" attack, the same with Uruguay. An other point could be Paraguay now it is 3/4 attackable if you reduce it to 2/4 or 1/4 it would give more proeminence to the center of the historical problem. Move the bridge arrow form igatim to san ignacio and maybe protect asuncion with river.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby oaktown on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:00 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


Alright, I think I may be on to something.

For starters, I have re-drawn Paraguay to have only two borders with enemy regions. Technically it still has three borders because the capital can be attack by the river. Note also the one-way attack into Argentina, which is historically accurate.

Next, the river has been brought all the way east almost to the coast - this is the actual course of the river (look it up!) and it makes a lovely boundary to protect the sud este region.

Finally, Goyaz has been redrawn to have only two borders as well, and the mountain range (now not a factor in play, but that's alright) put in the correct spot geographically. Impassable mountains replaced by the river (also geographically accurate). I think this allows for a better start, and makes it a decent +2.

I ran the regions through the spreadsheet and came up with the bonuses noted. I would have gone lower for some the five and six territory regions since they all came out around 5.7-5.8, but I know that my tendency is to low-ball the bonuses... at 52 territories this map is big enough to absorb an extra army here and there. :)

Legend: made the interior space larger and increased the size of the font; edited the text to drop one line; put flur de lys in the legend for color notation, which I think is nice since they were already in the legend graphic.

Oh yeah, broke up Argentina just a bit by putting in the river north of Puelches... if somebody really wants to start down there I thought I'd throw them a bone.

And another thing! Added some more colors by request... fewer greens.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby ZeakCytho on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:14 pm

Could you tweak the colors so Argentina and Gran Chaco aren't so similar?

The Fleurs-de-lys are nice, but...why? This map isn't related to France at all. Is there a more apt symbol you could use?

You've got another border leaking through the mountains, this time in Rio Xingu. And I must ask, what's the point of the mountains there, since they don't act as impassables? Maybe move them over between Rio Xingu and Rio Araguaia and get rid of that river-thing?

Another leaky border/mountain in Sergipe.

Gameplay's looking good to me.
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