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Re: Indian Subcontinent - rising from the ashes?

Postby oaktown on Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:30 am

I'm working on it, really I am... in going through historical maps of India it's next to impossible to find two that use the same region names and border divisions during the 18th century, but I think I've come up with a nice gameplay twist that the old attempts didn't have.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - rising from the ashes?

Postby InkL0sed on Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:59 pm

yoohoo...
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - rising from the ashes?

Postby ZeakCytho on Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:24 pm

I think Oak's on vacation right now :(
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - rising from the ashes?

Postby InkL0sed on Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:26 pm

ZeakCytho wrote:I think Oak's on vacation right now :(


No, that's gimil...

EDIT: wait, oaktown's apparently on vacation too...
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - first draft (finally) pg 2

Postby oaktown on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:24 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


Well, I finally found some time to get this together. I still haven't figured out where the bonus regions will be, but I wanted to get something posted.

The basics so far:
43 territories (unless I counted wrong)
Haven't sorted out what the regions will be yet; as independent states, Nepal and Bhotan will be territories, but not a part of a bonus region.
I would like to include bonuses for connecting cities via the rail lines - my hope is that this will encourage players to go after some of the central territories early rather than scuffling for the corners as on most maps.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - first draft (finally) pg 2

Postby ZeakCytho on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:33 am

:o

Mountains that don't look like veins!

:lol:

I think it's a great first draft. I'm a bit hesitant to support rail-lines and city bonuses. For geographical maps like this, I think classic gameplay really works best. The whole thing might be less confusing if the rail lines looked like rail lines instead of just plain lines. Right now it's a bit hard to tell them apart from the territory borders. I think you also need to define "connect by rail" - do you mean "hold X cities and the territories between them that the rail goes over" (which I think you mean), or just "hold X cities"?
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - first draft (finally) pg 2

Postby oaktown on Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:41 am

ZeakCytho wrote:I think it's a great first draft.

shukriya

ZeakCytho wrote:I'm a bit hesitant to support rail-lines and city bonuses. For geographical maps like this, I think classic gameplay really works best. The whole thing might be less confusing if the rail lines looked like rail lines instead of just plain lines. Right now it's a bit hard to tell them apart from the territory borders. I think you also need to define "connect by rail" - do you mean "hold X cities and the territories between them that the rail goes over" (which I think you mean), or just "hold X cities"?

Hmm, needs more explanation I see... the red lines are simply representing where rail lines will fall - didn't want to spend the time drawing them unless I thought it would be supported. The idea is that the territories along a line connecting two cities is a bonus region - it's still "classic" in that it's just territories and regions, but the twist is that some bonus regions share territories with other bonus regions.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - new draft pg 2

Postby oaktown on Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:21 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


A lot of pieces of the map so far are just there to provide material for discussion - I am aware that I need either a mini-map or region titles.

There are five traditional bonus regions, plus three sub bonuses for holding rail line between cities... the two southern lines cross multiple regions, and the Calcutta-Delhi line runs through the heart of a huge region that will be all but impossible to hold - thus the mini-bonuses to encourage activity in the center.

Note that I have not yet colored in the big central region (Bengal Presidency) because I'm not yet sold on whether or not I should break it up.

Two territories - Nepal and Bhotan - are NOT a part of a region.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - new draft pg 2

Postby foregone on Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:11 am

I think the gameplay will be better if you leave it as a large continent rather than breaking it up. It'll provide a sticky point for players after taking the smaller side continents.

Any particular reason those regions are not part of a continent? Asking out of interest.

I have no particular feeling as to the rail bonus. Could be cool with or without it.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - new draft pg 2

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:33 am

I have no opinion one way or the other about the rails either.

The red bonus doesn't seem dark enough, compared to the green... And it almost looks like there are too many yellow territories.....
And I would split the middle up...probably a couple of times... :D Which is why you're the mapmaker...

The book crease seems to disappear in the middle of the map too... there It looks more like a gentle fold.



Other than those small quibbles, this map is beautiful. She looks ready to go...
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - new draft pg 2

Postby whitestazn88 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:56 am

sweet
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - new draft pg 2

Postby e_i_pi on Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:22 am

Two things:

A) The mountains in Cashmere don't seem to serve a purpose other than aesthetic
B) This is three different flavours of kick-ass
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - new draft pg 2

Postby wcaclimbing on Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:38 pm

Interesting map so far.

one issue I do see is related to the color scheme.
You've got the old paper/book thing going on, but used bright neon colors that you wouldn't see on an old paper. I suggest that you tone down the brightness of teh colors just a bit, so it fits better with the old theme of the image.

And the red lines (roads, I think) are too solid and bright right now, to the point that they color over some of the territory names. Could you make it a bit darker and put it behind the text layers? It's still be plenty visible and then you wouldn't have the problem of the lines getting in the way of other parts of the image.
Image
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - new draft pg 2

Postby edbeard on Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:48 pm

what about doing West and East Bengal because I think that area is way too big. the only problem is they'll still be almost impossible to hold. any more impassable borders you can put in here?

One thing I don't like is areas that don't belong to anything. I don't know what you'd do with Nepal and Bhotan but that really takes away from the map for me.


I see what wca is saying about the colours and agree a bit.


I like the rail bonuses. Adds to a no mans land area.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - new draft pg 2

Postby oaktown on Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:22 am

Click image to enlarge.
image

Version 3! Please note the big announcement about colors and how I'm trying to work on gameplay.

What's new:

• Re-drew the Bombay Presidency to better reflect true geography. It is now five territories with three borders - a nice +3, and equal to the northern region.
• Split the giant Bengal Presidency into two regions, but now how one might expect; added the Central Provinces as a 5 territory, four border +4, and reconfigured those territories. I'm quite pleased with the huge central region because it features the railroad sub-bonus.
• Total regions not including Nepal and Bhotan = 42... doesn't get more classic.
• Total regions if we include Nepal and Bhotan = 44... I'm thinking perhaps we start them neutral, 2 armies each, and if somebody wants to hit them for a card that's their choice. Otherwise they won't see any action, which is fine because they aren't a part of British India.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - another draft pg 2

Postby ZeakCytho on Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:05 am

My vote is to get rid of Nepal and Bhotan altogether. They make the territory count less desirable, don't fit with any continents, and don't really serve a purpose.

The Bengal Presidency is 11 territories, with 7 borders, for a bonus of +6? I think you're undervaluing it a bit. What I think would be best is if you split it (again) into two more continents, east and west, along the line between Behar and Oude/Doab. That gives you a 6 territory, 5 border continent (west) for something like +4, and a 5 territory with 3 borders continent (east), identical in structure to the Bombay Presidency, so that would be +3. This assumes you've dropped Nepal and Bhotan.

All of those calculations ignore the railroad influence, though. So maybe this whole post is rubbish to be ignored.

Also, I don't like the colors very much :twisted:
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - another draft pg 2

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:53 am

oaktown wrote:• Split the giant Bengal Presidency into two regions, but now how one might expect; added the Central Provinces as a 5 territory, four border +4, and reconfigured those territories. I'm quite pleased with the huge central region because it features the railroad sub-bonus.

I would prefer to see it split. A few regions feature the railroad. Right now the giant center of the map is dead space. Everyone will be moving to the outskirts of the map.


oaktown wrote: Total regions not including Nepal and Bhotan = 42... doesn't get more classic.
• Total regions if we include Nepal and Bhotan = 44... I'm thinking perhaps we start them neutral, 2 armies each, and if somebody wants to hit them for a card that's their choice. Otherwise they won't see any action, which is fine because they aren't a part of British India.

Honestly, I could care less wich way you go, but I would prefer that we keep 'em.

oaktown wrote:Re-drew the Bombay Presidency to better reflect true geography. It is now five territories with three borders - a nice +3, and equal to the northern region.
• Split the giant Bengal Presidency

If you didn't tell me that it was the Giant territory, I would have no idea what one you were talking about, :lol: .
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - version 4, pg 3

Postby oaktown on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:12 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image

No significant gameplay changes to this version. I was just thinking that the graphics on the regions and rail lines might have been getting in the way of some folks being able to focus on the aspects of this map about which I'd like comments.

re. the "Big Region," aka Bengal Presidency: some of you are saying to split it up, but nobody is saying why. Yes, it is big. Yes it will be difficult to conquer and even harder to hold, and probably won't be held until the game is all but over anyway. But I'm concerned that splitting it into east and west regions would either give an advantage to an eastern starting player or a western starting player, depending on where it is split. The natural break would be west of Behar and Bengal, which means that a player who manages to start in Further India only has to expand a few territories and he holds a +7/+8 with only two borders.

I would encourage you all to look past the fact that the region is really big and consider how the map will play as is: there are five or six legitimate starts on this map: Further, Northern, Bombay Pres, Central Provinces, and the Delhi-Calcutta and Bombay-Madras rail lines. All are from four to six territories, and the one that is six has fewer borders and a more linear expansion than the others.

Anyway, I'm out the door. Discuss amongst yourselves.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - version 4, pg 3

Postby wcaclimbing on Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:59 am

[adv. idea]

:D
Last edited by wcaclimbing on Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - version 4, pg 3

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:05 am

oaktown wrote:re. the "Big Region," aka Bengal Presidency: some of you are saying to split it up, but nobody is saying why.

I did, you big pink bully.
Right now, It's dead space on the map. The movement there will be stagnent. I don't like dead space.
And if someone can take the Purple continent, it'll be a good place to camp, because no one is going to want to rush though all that space only to be counter attacked.

That purple territory will be useless on some games, and all important on others. IMO
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - version 4, pg 3

Postby edbeard on Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:22 pm

I like this version. I think leaving Nepal and Bhotan as non-playable is the way to go (not sure if that discussion is still going on or not).

I agree with keeping the large bonus area. If you hold the eastern continent and the Cent. Ind. Agency territory, you can hold it with 5 borders. It seems somewhat feasible to happen. Plus the rail bonus makes it worthwhile.


any history / random facts going to be added?
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - version 4, pg 3

Postby oaktown on Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:45 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
oaktown wrote:re. the "Big Region," aka Bengal Presidency: some of you are saying to split it up, but nobody is saying why.
Right now, It's dead space on the map. The movement there will be stagnent. I don't like dead space.

I don't see it as dead space. For starters, the region contains a +3 bonus entirely within its borders, and at four territories it is the smallest regions on the map... easy to conquer for a player who can pour armies in from all sides, though admittedly difficult to hold. In addition, a player that starts either in Northern or in Farther India is ultimately going to have no choice but to move through or else find himself weak and cornered.

Fun facts about India? I'll see what I can come up with... not as much room to play with here as on the Brazil revamp.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - version 4, pg 3

Postby asl80 on Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:53 am

good start oaktown, the feel of the graphics are good ... but at the same time i wonder if this is not the text based version
i.e. it's all words at the moment
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - version 4, pg 3

Postby oaktown on Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:34 pm

asl80 wrote:good start oaktown, the feel of the graphics are good ... but at the same time i wonder if this is not the text based version
i.e. it's all words at the moment

Other than the map itself, the graphics haven't received much attention. I've been thinking this map could use a mini-map with the bonuses - lose some of the text.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent - version 4, pg 3

Postby InkL0sed on Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:02 am

In terms of the actual map, I have no problem with you leaving out Nepal, or Bhotan.

But if you're going to leave them out, as well as Pakistan, then you shouldn't call this map "Indian Subcontinent".
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