Indian Empire [Quenched]

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Re: Indian Empire (D, GP, GX) page 11

Postby oaktown on Mon May 04, 2009 5:43 pm

barterer2002 wrote:Oak, I've been thinking about this one for a day now. Most of my concerns have already been discussed but the big one that just bugs me is the ability to fortify 4 terts and get both a continent and a railroad (Madras Presidency and Madras-Bombay). As I think about it, I'm led to a previous discussion about the bonuses of Calcutta-Delhi and I'm less and less convinced that the railroads are a positive on this map-at least from a gameplay perspective. Essentially what we've got is 3 railroad bonuses-2 of which will essentially add to a continent bonus and do little else.

Your concern is not lost on me, barterer. Personally I think the railroads are a fun little twist to gameplay that don't require somebody to spend too much time working them out. So while I'd like to keep them, I think it's worth looking at each railroad line individually to see what their impact will be on the play of the map.

Calcutta - Delhi has been the center of much discussion in this thread. The idea behind its presence in the middle of a region is to create some incentive for activity in what could otherwise be a wasteland in the center of the map. Without the railroad Bengal is this map's Asia: you shuffle some armies around to help secure the small regions on the periphery, but the action is elswhere. It's my favorite railroad on the map, and I think it lends a lot to play.

Bombay-Calcutta will be absolutely nasty to hold, but I can see situations arise where a player scores a good start in the Central Provinces and expands along the railroads. It could be a powerful forces in some games, completly ignored in others.

It's the Bombay - Madras route that you are concerned about, and for good reason. The idea behind that railroad was, like the northern track, to create another viable start for somebody, in this case somebody who starts in the south. Fo this reason I think that it is good that it exists, but perhaps the bonus is too generous.

Coupling the Madras bonus with the railroad does create a significant bonus. Taking Konkan already makes Madras easier to hold by eliminating one border, making it a ten territory, four border +5 (ignoring the railroad bonus of now); without Konkan its a nine terit, five border +5. Neither configuration is a very generous bonus from a classic perspective - compare it to North America's +5 for holding nine territories and just three borders. And it's right next to a five territory region that is going to pick up +4, and another that is looking at +3, so it's going to get hammered from somebody early.

With the railroad there, of course, we have to reconsider the region, which now brings in +7 altogether. Madras has a four territory region - the smallest on the map - that acts as a stepping stone to controlling the rest of the region. Is it now too strong? Maybe... I'd be curious to see what others have to say.

If it is there are options we can take that don't involve scrapping the entire rail system: we can adjust either bonus, add a sea route into Coromandel Coast from Calcutta (which would be interesting and add a border to Madras), or redraw some borders. I'm open to discussing any option. Or maybe folks think it's fine as-is. ??
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Re: Indian Empire (D, GP, GX) page 11

Postby tlane on Mon May 04, 2009 6:29 pm

Hey Oak, this map looks great!
can't really see anything wrong with it, looks very final forge ready.
If you want a nit-pic the only thing I can think of is the border between Pegu and Tenasserim. There is some fat dot or something on the border, you could get rid of that if you want.

Great map,
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Re: Indian Empire (D, GP, GX) page 11

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Mon May 04, 2009 7:04 pm

tlane wrote:Hey Oak, this map looks great!
can't really see anything wrong with it, looks very final forge ready.
If you want a nit-pic the only thing I can think of is the border between Pegu and Tenasserim. There is some fat dot or something on the border, you could get rid of that if you want.

Great map,
tlane

i;m pretty sure thats supposed to be there
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Re: Indian Empire (D, GP, GX) page 11

Postby Hatchman on Tue May 05, 2009 6:08 am

Beautiful work as usual Oaktown. Can't wait to play this map. And if I've already posted to this effect, I don't care. :D
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Re: Indian Empire (D, GP, GX) page 11

Postby oaktown on Tue May 05, 2009 8:36 am

I am considering reducing the southern rail bonus to a +1 to account for the inflated value of that railroad plus the Madras region. Any objections?
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Re: Indian Empire (D, GP, GX) page 11

Postby barterer2002 on Tue May 05, 2009 3:06 pm

The British fort at Madras was there from (I think) the seventeenth century or so and was well expanded by the time period of this map. I'm interested in your idea of a sea line from Madras over to Calcutta. Doing this would bring you back up to 5 terts that you have to hold to get the bonuses without making this particular railroad a 1 which almost makes it worthless except as part of the continent bonus. If you want to stay with the idea of having the railroads worth something from a starting and game play idea then it needs to stay at +2 IMO.
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Re: Indian Empire (D, GP, GX) page 11

Postby oaktown on Tue May 05, 2009 3:10 pm

barterer2002 wrote:The British fort at Madras was there from (I think) the seventeenth century or so and was well expanded by the time period of this map. I'm interested in your idea of a sea line from Madras over to Calcutta. Doing this would bring you back up to 5 terts that you have to hold to get the bonuses without making this particular railroad a 1 which almost makes it worthless except as part of the continent bonus. If you want to stay with the idea of having the railroads worth something from a starting and game play idea then it needs to stay at +2 IMO.

I would tend to agree, but since changing the bonus was the easiest solution in terms of what it does to the rest of the board I thought I'd float that one first. Calcutta is already a border territory so it wouldn't have much impact there. It would mean that the extreme eastern side of the map is only one terriory away from the southern continent, which could be a good or bad thing.
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Re: Indian Empire (D, GP, GX) page 11

Postby oaktown on Tue May 05, 2009 9:29 pm

Click image to enlarge.
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Gameplay change: added an attack route from Coromandel Coast up to Calcutta. Madras region now has an additional border to defend, and somebody from way across the Bay can bounce through Calcutta and whack Madras (or vice-versa!).

Graphics: fixed afghanistan, lighten the blob in pegu.

NOTE: I have NOT done the little bending at the page crease in this version - it's not hard to do, but a waste of time if we're still messing with the gameplay.
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Re: Indian Empire; gameplay tweak page 13

Postby a.sub on Tue May 05, 2009 11:32 pm

ur utter stunning amazingness ceases to amaze me,
not just the recent update but the map as a whole
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Re: Indian Empire; gameplay tweak page 13

Postby oaktown on Wed May 06, 2009 12:50 am

a.sub wrote:ur utter stunning amazingness ceases to amaze me

that starts as a compliment, but then sours... I think that you mean that my amazingness NEVER ceases to amaze you.

Come on a.sub, I expect more from a fellow east bay CCer. ;)
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Re: Indian Empire; gameplay tweak page 13

Postby barterer2002 on Wed May 06, 2009 10:54 am

Oak, I think that's a great improvement in the game play there. Looking forward to playing it.
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Re: Indian Empire; gameplay tweak page 13

Postby a.sub on Wed May 06, 2009 7:18 pm

oaktown wrote:
a.sub wrote:ur utter stunning amazingness ceases to amaze me

that starts as a compliment, but then sours... I think that you mean that my amazingness NEVER ceases to amaze you.

Come on a.sub, I expect more from a fellow east bay CCer. ;)

DOH!
good call lol
in my defense AP testing has been frying my brain
just took AP calc lol
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Re: Indian Empire; gameplay tweak page 13

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Wed May 06, 2009 7:20 pm

FF
please
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Re: Indian Empire; gameplay tweak page 13

Postby Incandenza on Fri May 08, 2009 7:35 pm

The new Calcutta-Coromandel connection does nothing for me in terms of the bombay-madras bonus (I see little wrong with a 4-border +7 that'll be taken and held rather rarely), but the extra bit of connectivity it brings is a Good Thing, IMHO.
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Re: Indian Empire; gameplay tweak page 13

Postby Merker on Fri May 08, 2009 7:48 pm

Empress Victoria damnet.

Victoria (Alexandrina Victoria; 24 May 1819 – 22 January 1901) was from 20 June 1837 the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and from 1 May 1876 the first Empress of India of the British Raj until her death.


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Re: Indian Empire; gameplay tweak page 13

Postby the.killing.44 on Fri May 08, 2009 7:51 pm

Merker wrote:Empress Victoria damnet.

Victoria (Alexandrina Victoria; 24 May 1819 – 22 January 1901) was from 20 June 1837 the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and from 1 May 1876 the first Empress of India of the British Raj until her death.


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Well, this is being written as a British document so, although yeah it's accurate (and even by British standards), I think it'd be better to keep it as Queen Victoria.

.44
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Re: Indian Empire; gameplay tweak page 13

Postby oaktown on Sat May 09, 2009 1:25 am

I don't really give a crap if it's queen or empress victoria... this is the kind of trivial thing that i am happy to let a poll decide.
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Re: Indian Empire; page 13 - NEW POLL!

Postby the.killing.44 on Sat May 09, 2009 9:22 am

Fourth option is winning by 1 vote. But you can combine it with Option 1 for 7 ;)

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Re: Indian Empire; page 13 - NEW POLL!

Postby oaktown on Sat May 09, 2009 10:09 am

the.killing.44 wrote:Fourth option is winning by 1 vote. But you can combine it with Option 1 for 7 ;)

I believe that every poll should have an option that allows one to express how they really feel about the poll itself. ;)

I may just go with option 3 and avoid any future angry PMs from anglophiles.
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Re: Indian Empire; page 13 - NEW POLL!

Postby a.sub on Sat May 09, 2009 12:33 pm

oaktown wrote:
the.killing.44 wrote:Fourth option is winning by 1 vote. But you can combine it with Option 1 for 7 ;)

I believe that every poll should have an option that allows one to express how they really feel about the poll itself. ;)

I may just go with option 3 and avoid any future angry PMs from anglophiles.

i really want option four to win, i mean honestly its just a name
in fact
from now on i am to be called
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Re: Indian Empire; page 13 - NEW POLL!

Postby alexandrois on Sun May 10, 2009 11:08 am

I love the railway idea
I think that that north west won't have much action in it as the edges do
so could you put a railway running up the west coast into the north west?
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Re: Indian Empire; page 13 - NEW POLL!

Postby The Neon Peon on Mon May 11, 2009 9:09 pm

oak, you have an absolutely amazing talent at putting continent names on the map, they look fantastic. (India, and Eastern Hemisphere maps).
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Re: Indian Empire; page 13 - NEW POLL!

Postby cairnswk on Mon May 11, 2009 10:31 pm

alexandrois wrote:I love the railway idea
I think that that north west won't have much action in it as the edges do
so could you put a railway running up the west coast into the north west?


This was somewhat of my feeling also.
I notice there is an attack loop between Calcultta, Bombay and Madras, but nothing similar in the west.
Won't that create an in-balance in the gameplay?
Perhaps a line from Delhi to Sindh (Karachi, if there was a line running out there), and then a coastal shipping route from Bombay to Karachi.

Also. i know this is late in the piece and you can reject all of this if you want, but I've recently become acquainted with some British-Indian history through the magic the ABC TV here in Oz. Isn't the Taj more of a symbol of the Mogul Empire of India. While I realise it is probably the most recognised building in the world (so they say) i would have thought that some building from the British construction and architecture of New Delhi would be more defining of the British Period for India.
Perhaps Image

For the train bonuses, do you mean that you have to hold all territories that the rail-line traverses to get that bonus. That is kind of unclear that way it is written in the legend.

Oaktown, IMO i've gotta say that i'm not a big fan of the Presidency names on the map in the background. They overlap and collide with the territory names in many places and this causes my eyes to be lead away from the actual territory names to try to read the Presidency names.

I voted for Queen Victoria. She was known as the Empress of India. So Queen Victoria would fit in more with what you have in the title style. I must say that I'm surprised the 4th option made it into the poll.

So apart from that, if none of those things are considered issues by the rest of the foundry, after seeing the Small version with some armies on it for placement, i'd be happy to say FF.
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Re: Indian Empire; page 13 - NEW POLL!

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon May 11, 2009 10:41 pm

Oaktown, IMO i've gotta say that i'm not a big fan of the Presidency names on the map in the background. They overlap and collide with the territory names in many places and this causes my eyes to be lead away from the actual territory names to try to read the Presidency names.

They aren't totally awesome splendid perfect (but I think they are fine), but I'll argue function over form in this case, as within just the last couple of days we've had some people in the Suggestions forum talking about how some maps are hard to distinguish for colorblind people, without any continental/zone labels.


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Re: Indian Empire; page 13 - NEW POLL!

Postby cairnswk on Mon May 11, 2009 10:44 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
Oaktown, IMO i've gotta say that i'm not a big fan of the Presidency names on the map in the background. They overlap and collide with the territory names in many places and this causes my eyes to be lead away from the actual territory names to try to read the Presidency names.

They aren't totally awesome splendid perfect (but I think they are fine), but I'll argue function over form in this case, as within just the last couple of days we've had some people in the Suggestions forum talking about how some maps are hard to distinguish for colorblind people, without any continental/zone labels.

--Andy

Understandable :)
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