[Official] Brazil REVAMP [Quenched]

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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby ZeakCytho on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:34 pm

I would also like to see Rio Negro's name changed, but for totally different reasons. Rio Negro, from what I can tell on google and wikipedia, is not a region of Brazil or a city, but a river. One of the criteria in making this map was that nothing natural can be used for impassables, since it was a purely political map. So why not use purely political divisions? I believe there are a number of inaccurately named/placed territories on this map that should be fixed prior to quenching, and it is completely possible to make this map more accurate without changing gameplay at all.

The map made by Mjinga for the competition, shown below, has territories named after the largest city in the region they are encompassed by. If you don't want to do the divisions by city, that's fine, but could you do something to make it more accurate?
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Incandenza on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:47 pm

WorldConquer587 wrote:Rj can you please change the territory named of Rio Negro it kind of insults me and I don't approve of it.


Rio Negro, actual place: Wikipedia

Take it up with the Brazilians if you don't like it. Besides, it's almost impossible to take this sort of thing seriously. No one's this sensitive without an agenda of some sort.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Marvaddin on Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:53 pm

Hey all

About the tilt: although its not something really offensive to national feelings, I dont like when my country's shape is presented in... hmmmm... non traditional forms. As you can guess, I have drawn tons of Brazilian maps with my own hands since when I was a young boy (school homeworks, of course), and its hard to see it tilted, lol. I can imagine how would sound strange to the Americans the USA map with the east side to the top, for example (lol, it would be strange even to me). So, I dislike tilts in any maps, and I think everyone dislike them, at least in maps you see very often, like the map of your own country. In some cases, they can be useful, specially with the maximum map size... Portugal, Chile, Sweden, etc, there are very countries with a dimension much bigger than the other, and it can help, but like I said, I dont think its the case, and this is the main problem: the tilt is not necessary, so why have it? The single drawback of removing the tilt is giving more work to rj, I think. Of course its a big drawback, but I know he can handle with it ;)

About territories names.
The first comment is: I will still spend some time checking them again, and other Brazilians are invited to help me in this task.
The Rio Negro name, like you already know, means Black River in Portuguese, and there is not even a minimum amount of racism in this name. Rio Negro is a river that form Amazon River (Rio Amazonas, in Portuguese), and it has this name because it has really dark waters, duh!
About the name being of just a river, well, you are wrong. :P
Let me present you the Brazilian state of Amazonas:

Image

As its our biggest state, in the CC map it was splitted in 4 territories: Manaus, Rio Negro, Solimões and Madeira. In the image I just posted, the blue area is a sub-state region called Rio Negro (I mixed it to some other sub-areas and gave the name that makes more sense). And just giving names of cities is not the best answer too. I realized the effort of Mjinga, but see: the rainforest dont have sooo many big cities. Benjamin Constant is a city with like 25k people, and so most even Brazilians ignore its existence, lol. I wouldnt give a name that people that know the country would think "wtf is Benjamin Constant?", right? Rio Negro, otherwise, is the name of that blue area, AND is a famous river, so, it would make sense.

But again, I will check the names again, and anyone that knows the area and wants to help is welcome. :D

Any other question I can answer for now? 8-)
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Mjinga on Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:03 am

I picked the names of cities actually for different reasons. I used state capitals where I could, and large cities in the regions that I was working with, but sometimes if I could find a city that was (according to possibly non-Brazilian sites :oops: ) of more cultural importance, I used that one.

But in any case, I used only city names. I really don't like how the original one uses cities for some territ names, states for others, and river names for others. It just seems very inconsistent... I'm not so attached to my choices of names, I just like that they're all cities. :D

About Rio Negro... um, it's very clearly not a racial insult. It's not even pronounced the same way as Americans would if they were insulting African Americans. Why does it bother you, WorldConquer587?
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:38 am

Huh. I'm actually starting to see were marv's coming from... tilt a U.S. map about 27 degrees and you'll see why he's got a problem.
Still love the tilt though, it'd be sad to see it go. It seems to make everything fit together in this map, something some of the other Brazils didn't have.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby RjBeals on Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:39 am

I also see Marv's point. I will rework the map and remove the tilt. Give me some time though - it's not as simple as just clicking and rotating the entire image.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby jiminski on Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:40 am

pepperonibread wrote:Huh. I'm actually starting to see were marv's coming from... tilt a U.S. map about 27 degrees and you'll see why he's got a problem.
Still love the tilt though, it'd be sad to see it go. It seems to make everything fit together in this map, something some of the other Brazils didn't have.


RjBeals wrote:I also see Marv's point. I will rework the map and remove the tilt. Give me some time though - it's not as simple as just clicking and rotating the entire image.



It is a real shame if Marv is holding us all to this... (perhaps we could change the names on the map and call it the map of 'Ancient Chelmsford'.. so we can get rid of the Super Veto.... joking.. half joking.. I understand the tradition of ultimate control for the original creator in spite of the rest of the worlds opinion ;) )

However the point regarding the US is completely moot; the shape of the US has a balance and a symmetry to it.. or at least no gain in symmetry would be made by titling it.. turn is upside-down; maybe but to what gain?
Brazil is wonky in shape, by using the tilt to square the top off and paralleling it with the Baby-map, (you could draw a diagonal line from the left bottom corner to the top right corner, which would fall between the most relevant symmetrical points in both maps) it alludes to a subtle, progressive visual harmony.

In my opinion and without the shackles locked by 15th century European, Cartographic precepts. The map gains a great deal from this simple tilt and RJ should be allowed to remain true to his Aesthetic discovery.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Marvaddin on Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:21 am

jiminski wrote:It is a real shame if Marv is holding us all to this... (perhaps we could change the names on the map and call it the map of 'Ancient Chelmsford'.. so we can get rid of the Super Veto.... joking.. half joking.. I understand the tradition of ultimate control for the original creator in spite of the rest of the worlds opinion ;) )

However the point regarding the US is completely moot; the shape of the US has a balance and a symmetry to it.. or at least no gain in symmetry would be made by titling it.. turn is upside-down; maybe but to what gain?
Brazil is wonky in shape, by using the tilt to square the top off and paralleling it with the Baby-map, it alludes to a subtle, progressive visual harmony.

In my opinion and without the shackles locked by 15th century European, Cartographic precepts. The map gains a great deal from this simple tilt and RJ should be allowed to remain true to his Aesthetic discovery.


I was not suggesting to add a tilt on US map. This is a way so you can realize how strange your country map can look with a tilt. Like you said, a US map up-to-down would still have balance and simmetry, so, why not? Just put an arrow pointing to North and its ok, isnt it? Now, see if it dont hurt the accustomed eyes. For what gain, you ask, and I return you the same question. Is Brazil gaining simmetry with the tilt? No to me, its still Brazil assimmetric shape with a tilt. And why do you really think we will have the baby map in final version? Its open to discussion too, as we now have 2 legends. I assume that, if you see visual harmony in the tilted Brazil map, its because you didnt look at it without the tilt a million times like me. A serious suggestion: try get a map of your own country and discover some aesthetic harmony adding a tilt to it. I would like to see what we would get.

And many thanks, rj, by understanding the point and redoing it. :)

Mjinga, I have realized your names criteria. But, there are some problems...
When I first did the map, I would put states names, of course, but, some of them were splitted, so it wouldnt be accurate even giving the state name to a part of it, but I kept the state name on the ones that were not splitted. And what to do with the other territories? I tried to put names of sub-state areas, but in some cases the name of capital city (or important city) would fit better, I thought, specially when the area name is long or unknown for most Brazilians. Just cities names would be strange, because there are some areas without any really important cities, so the area name could prevail in these cases. Oh, and I also had to think about names size. Like Natal territory. Its a state, and Natal is its capital city. I put the city name because the state name is "Rio Grande do Norte", which is very long. (Yeah, thats a state name, not a river name, although for now you all know rio = river, lol. There are many areas in Brazil with names related to important rivers.)

So, in fact, I think that find just one criteria is nearly impossible, and I will try to find something that makes sense, and for that Im open to suggestions :D
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby RjBeals on Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:03 am

Marvaddin wrote: And why do you really think we will have the baby map in final version? Its open to discussion too, as we now have 2 legends.
I think there is enough space for both legends, as the minimap doesn't have the names on it, just the bonuses. I prefer the mini-map style to the color block style. Especially when the colors are close in tone, and there are color blind people on the site.

(My 2 cents).
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby whitestazn88 on Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:52 am

i liked the tilt... but i guess marv does have that super veto power...

and i agree that there is more than enough room for both legends. i like legends with both a minimap and descriptions anyway
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby jiminski on Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:19 pm

Marvaddin wrote:
jiminski wrote:It is a real shame if Marv is holding us all to this... (perhaps we could change the names on the map and call it the map of 'Ancient Chelmsford'.. so we can get rid of the Super Veto.... joking.. half joking.. I understand the tradition of ultimate control for the original creator in spite of the rest of the worlds opinion ;) )

However the point regarding the US is completely moot; the shape of the US has a balance and a symmetry to it.. or at least no gain in symmetry would be made by titling it.. turn is upside-down; maybe but to what gain?
Brazil is wonky in shape, by using the tilt to square the top off and paralleling it with the Baby-map, (you could draw a diagonal line from the left bottom corner to the top right corner, which would fall between the most relevant symmetrical points in both maps) it alludes to a subtle, progressive visual harmony.

In my opinion and without the shackles locked by 15th century European, Cartographic precepts. The map gains a great deal from this simple tilt and RJ should be allowed to remain true to his Aesthetic discovery.


I was not suggesting to add a tilt on US map. This is a way so you can realize how strange your country map can look with a tilt. Like you said, a US map up-to-down would still have balance and simmetry, so, why not? Just put an arrow pointing to North and its ok, isnt it? Now, see if it dont hurt the accustomed eyes. For what gain, you ask, and I return you the same question. Is Brazil gaining simmetry with the tilt? No to me, its still Brazil assimmetric shape with a tilt. And why do you really think we will have the baby map in final version? Its open to discussion too, as we now have 2 legends. I assume that, if you see visual harmony in the tilted Brazil map, its because you didnt look at it without the tilt a million times like me. A serious suggestion: try get a map of your own country and discover some aesthetic harmony adding a tilt to it. I would like to see what we would get.

And many thanks, rj, by understanding the point and redoing it. :)

....


what a shame..


(you missed my section in bold above, as i suppose you were writing a response as i edited, it explains my view a little better)

But my map would be the UK... do what you want to it if it looks as beautiful as RJ's; with the subtle and respectful nuance of his changes.
North/South Map bias and Map perceptive is largely based in a form of visual propaganda anyway, emanating from European conquest and dominance hundreds of years past.... Censoring RJ is just a real shame.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:27 pm

I also don't mind the tilt...I know someone suggested adding a compass to show the direction of north, I'd be pleased with such.


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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby jako on Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:14 pm

part of why i chose A was because of the tilt. it just looks so much better with a tilt and like jiminski said, its pleasing to the eye.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Incandenza on Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:20 pm

Put me down as another who fancies the tilt...
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby RjBeals on Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:25 pm

sorry guys.

Marv gets the last word here. As much as it doesn't bother me either, it bothers him. I'll try to make sure I don't loose the feel though - with the map being true north. I just have a feeling there's going to be a lot of dead space.... but we'll see.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby jiminski on Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:28 pm

RjBeals wrote:sorry guys.

Marv gets the last word here. As much as it doesn't bother me either, it bothers him. I'll try to make sure I don't loose the feel though - with the map being true north. I just have a feeling there's going to be a lot of dead space.... but we'll see.


this is not what was voted on... sure the artists are important, nay vital!! and their mutual appreciation and deference is impressive. .. but this exercise in artistic ego ignores entirely what those who voted desire... i am completely disillusioned with the revamp process, which appears to be counter to normal foundry process. i will not be participating in another.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby jako on Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:35 pm

a large majority of voters voted on A because the way brazil looked in ur map was appeasing to the eye and that was due in large part to the tilt. if what people voted on is changed now, then isnt the voting process altogether useless and misleading?
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby pamoa on Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:00 am

About the tilt

Although Marvaddin point of view is important and have to be respected there is a couple of valid arguments against it.
RjBeals wrote:...with the map being true north. I just have a feeling there's going to be a lot of dead space...

jako wrote:Part of why I chose A was because of the tilt...

In effect pointing the map true north would leave 4 "empty" angles.
I think it is the way you managed to fill up the space by tiliting it, that is part of the success of your map.
And I read more than once in the foundry that dead spaces is a kind of a problem for some people.
So despite I tend to think like you Marvaddin, I would say that the tilt is an important part of this map and so should remain.
Can you consider conceading this to the community ?



Now about the graphics

Maybe you can try the background image a bit lighter.
You can also try to put the begining of the border of the surrounding countries with the thin yellow line you had before.
And use the previous double line to suggest the atlantic ocean.

You have to get rid of this double bonus explanation you have ( minimap & legend ).
I would say remove the list and put the name either in the minimap or around the main one.

And last point the border, like said before it's a bit odd.
I would say done a bit in hurry due to competition deadline.
But you should keep the colors.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Mjinga on Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:20 pm

I see Marvaddin's point.

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As a resident of the United States, that looks quite odd to me. Perhaps we just don't think Brazil looks weird tilted because we don't live there and don't see the map due North all the time.

Back to my harping point... about the names, Marv! While you're thinking about territ names, can I bring up the continent names? In particular, I do not like Mato Grosso as a continent name, because it includes both Mato Grosso Do Sul and Mato Grosso in the area and also cos it's the only continent named after an actual state. I called it the Central West in my version, with the Central Axis being renamed the Central East. Is there any way that it could be renamed in a similar fashion?
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:31 pm

Consider it from this counter perspective:

You are viewing a globe with roughly the correct natural tilt of the Earth (Earth's axis is tilted some 23.5 degrees from the perpendicular to the Earth–Sun plane):

Click image to enlarge.
image


Edit: Indeed it is tilted the other way...but still the point stands. People are use to looking at things from a tilted perspective.

Additionally, hundreds of people voted for it. :)


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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby pepperonibread on Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:38 pm

Actually... RJ's map is tilted the other way. So it's really even wronger than a standard north-up map :D
Still love the tilt though.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby whitestazn88 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:12 pm

wronger is not a word lol, and i mean, i understand that everyone is upset about the tilt thing, but hey, marv gets the last word
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby pepperonibread on Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:15 pm

whitestazn88 wrote:wronger is not a word lol, and i mean, i understand that everyone is upset about the tilt thing, but hey, marv gets the last word


lol, I didn't think it was a word either, but Firefox said it wasn't misspelled, and look here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wronger.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Marvaddin on Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:04 pm

Afffff, talking about the tilt is getting boring. Im not really considering to approve it, because:

Mjinga wrote:As a resident of the United States, that looks quite odd to me. Perhaps we just don't think Brazil looks weird tilted because we don't live there and don't see the map due North all the time.

^^ This is what Im saying: I dont feel that I should let it looking weird to us Brazilians, just because some foreign people think its more beautiful with a tilt. Guys, its our country, I cant think that we should have it tilted because you look at the map and see an empty angle. Its more important than a simple good visual sensation. I could tolerate it if it was necessary due to maximum size restrictions, but as it isnt, well... you know.

About the revamp process, well, Im sorry if some think its frustating, but there was clear we would not quench the voted map, it would still be modified in the normal foundry process. And I have posted I would place veto to the tilt in the first comment about all the entries in 1st stage, so if it was in 2nd stage and people voted to it, well, not my fault, I suppose. If you really like the idea, you can ask for a new poll, to choose between rj map without a tilt and the other 2 entries, but Im very happy with the map and the cartographer, and I think it will be even better without the tilt, lets wait and give it a chance. ;)

Empty angles? Well, if they come, its something I wont complain about, because I still feel the lack of the glorious Brazilian flag :D

Other comments:
- In fact, I like the map borders.

pamoa wrote:You have to get rid of this double bonus explanation you have ( minimap & legend ).
I would say remove the list and put the name either in the minimap or around the main one.

^^ This is something I agree.

Mjinga wrote:Back to my harping point... about the names, Marv! While you're thinking about territ names, can I bring up the continent names? In particular, I do not like Mato Grosso as a continent name, because it includes both Mato Grosso Do Sul and Mato Grosso in the area and also cos it's the only continent named after an actual state. I called it the Central West in my version, with the Central Axis being renamed the Central East. Is there any way that it could be renamed in a similar fashion?

Oh, well... previously, in the 60's, if Im correct, Mato Grosso and Mato Grosso do Sul were a single state called Mato Grosso, so the name is historically accurate. There is a Central West area in Brazil standard division, but it should include the territories of Goias and Brasilia, so I think that the Mato Grosso name is the better one. About Central Axis, lol, its a fictional area. There is no similar area in Brazil maps. I have called it Central Axis because the area is the most important in terms of economy, population, etc, but I was never happy with this name. Central East would be fine... but Im still open to suggestions, if someone can help me. How should we name the area with most populated and economically important states? Suggestions?
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:12 pm

I usually am in agreement with Marv about most things, but not the tilt. :) I wouldn't mind seeing a poll, if the results of the poll were actually used, and not just taken into consideration. ;)


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