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Re: Wales [I] v6 p1/4 ***UPDATED 30/08/08***

Postby MrBenn on Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:57 pm

qwert wrote:I check in Wikipedia,and wales have 22 unitary authorities,and when you add 3 english,these give you number of 25.

I've used the ceremonial/historical boundaries... the Unitary authorities are purely administrative, and not cultural...

I'll look at shifting some of the colours around, and will be adding in some mountains etc in a couple of spots.

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Re: Wales [I] p1/6 >>New Update 20th Sept<<

Postby MrBenn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:07 am

OK... It's been a little while, but here is my first attempt at a grunged-up version...
I've taken a picture of some scrumpled of paper and added that to the background as a feint texture
There is a bit of 'weathering' to the edges, but I've also sprinkled some over the map at random ;-)
I'm not wholly convinced by the fold I've put across the middle, but I'll see what others think.
After much playing around, I have learnt a bit about custom brushes and drawn some mountains I am happy with. I'm using PS6, which doesn't have a 'jitter' feature, but I think they look good regardless.

I haven't swapped the colours around as I flattened the colours layer, and will need to see if I can get an untangled copy from an early version #-o
Which order do people think would be better for the colours?

My final comments are about image size; my working copy is bigger than the large image will be - I'll put up the correct size images once I've sorted out the colour-shift ;-)

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Re: Wales [I] p1/6 >>New Update 20th Sept<<

Postby asl80 on Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:41 pm

looks good, and looks like it might provide some interesting gameplay. well done so far, good luck.
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Re: Wales [I] p1/6 >>New Update 20th Sept<<

Postby The Wyvern on Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:55 am

Tell me, how does the two clans work? Do they both function as their own territories, or do you need to capture both in order to possess the territory?
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Re: Wales [I] p1/6 >>New Update 20th Sept<<

Postby gimil on Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:32 pm

Sorry I haven't read up on this benn so I don't really know 100% what is going on, but the shire/clan stuff really does confuse me I don't have a clue what it is on about.

Could you enlighten me please? :)
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Re: Wales [I] p1/6 >>New Update 20th Sept<<

Postby The Wyvern on Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:10 pm

Oh! I get it now; each clan essentially is a territory, and when you control both clans of a shire you get a continent bonus!

But what if you own all shires of a region? do you get an additional bonus?
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Re: Wales [I]

Postby MrBenn on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:48 pm

Here's another update...

I have taken out the 'fold' across the middle as I wasn't really that keen on it.
The colours have been swapped around, and I've made the band of colour thicker to make it easier to distinguish. I think the colours are better placed now, but am tempted to rethink the thickness...
The large image has been made a bit smaller (even if only to appease RJ!)
I've also added a burn-mark. The hole is very slightly off-white, to match the colour of the background on the play-a-game screen.
I have changed the shapes of the region bonuses, picking out a shape from the corresponding region area instead of the previous blobs!

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To clarify some of the gameplay issues, there are two territories (clans) in each geographical area(Shire). You get a +1 bonus for holding both territories/clans in each area/shire. The Shires are grouped into regions, which will yield an additional bonus. I have attempted to explain this through the medium of poetry, so some of the finesse may be lost?? In any case, the gameplay will be standard (ie no bombards/one-ways etc), except for the multiple armies per territory...
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Re: Wales [I] p1/6 >>New Update 20th Sept<<

Postby ZeakCytho on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:52 pm

I love the new look!
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Re: Wales [I] p1/6 >>New Update 20th Sept<<

Postby MrBenn on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:59 pm

I forgot to mention that I've made the large image a bit smaller (even if only to appease RJ!)
I've also added a burn-mark. The hole is very slightly off-white, to match the colour of the background on the play-a-game screen.
I have changed the shapes of the region bonuses, picking out a shape from the corresponding region area instead of the previous blobs!

[edited in to earlier post]
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Re: Wales [I] p1/6 >>New Update 20th Sept<<

Postby edbeard on Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:32 pm

the look is great except I'm not fond of the hole. I'd rather it'd just not be there as it doesn't seem to add to the image. it feels quite random and gimmickish to place it there.


one thing I don't like is the bottom left section of your bonus legend. Gogledd, North, and 3 aren't that readable on top of the dark blue



I think the main concern is the gameplay at this point. Like people have pointed out, you're going to have people starting with +1 bonuses all over the place. the drop and going first will be that much more important on this map. I've been trying to figure out a 'solution' but I'm not sure there's anything that makes sense that's possible with the current XML. You could say you need to hold two shires to get a bonus but that's four territories to defend so that's stupid. You could say attacks can only occur inside a shire or from same language adjacent territories but that doesn't really do anything but limit the openness of the map which has nothing to do with what we're talking about. One thing that I thought could be interesting would be to make holding the shire a conditional autodeploy. You hold Sir Fynwy and Monmouth and each get a +1 bonus on the territory. It limits the power of holding a shire, in that, it only helps you locally. you can't hold three shires from the drop and place 6 armies in one spot. the problem is that it gives you double the armies for holding a shire so that makes it that much stronger and will probably making getting shires from the drop that much more important. furthermore, it's not currently possible with this XML and who knows if/when it will be.


I think we're all going to have to live with this gameplay you've got because there doesn't appear to be any way around it. the only good thing is that even if someone else drops a shire, you can gain them with one attack.
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby MrBenn on Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:12 pm

Thanks edbeard.

I think yeti had a solution for the deployment problem - I think we can mitigate for it using starting positions, but I haven't fully got my head around that yet...

As for the burn-hole, I'm not sold on it either... It will probably disappear at some point, but I thought it might look better than a mug-stain ;-)
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby asl80 on Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:43 pm

- keep the cultural historical boundaries ... screw the unitary!!! (i don't even know what that means! hehe)
- keep the poetic instruction ... it's not that riddled and actually pretty straightforward.
- i see no need for the burn mark either, there's enough beauty spots on the canvas already.

- on gameplay; i reakon either autodeploy on won of the two shire territories (this would need to be explained), or, if the xml allows, make it, before you deploy your free armies, that you are restricted, shire after shire, to autodeploy on either of the two clans within the corresponding shire.

- or, another option ... have one half of each shire start neutral, and at possibly +4 or ideally +5 ... this would mean it is very hard for a first turn grab (you wouldn't need it auto deploy on this principle i think.
... only problem here though, is that you would then be down to 18 starting territories ... but then, with a start of +3, and no need to attack your opponent straight up on account of territory bonus ... each could go off and get them selves a bonus. (which would give them only +4 from the first one ... not a game defining headstart.
(8 player games could only have 2 starting territories ... i.e. easy eliminations etc. hmmmm)

- third alternative for both the autodeploy and the neutral options ... give each shire another territory, i.e. the two clans and a third "unitary" territory (hahaha, but not that word - poss call it by shire name.), which starts neutral +5 and which you must hold in addition to the two clans ... the bonus could then be auto'd on here.
(i do like that the second option provided smaller starting territories and thus less terr. bonus ... meaning the features of the map would be more important)

anyway ... hope there's at least a little chunk of sustenance in here ... good luck.
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby The Wyvern on Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:59 pm

I think the gameplay will be alright - interesting, but alright. The only way to tell would to do actual gameplay tests.

But graphics-wise, I agree on getting rid of the burn mark, but also maybe taking the english names down a couple points or italicising them so that the welsh stands out more. Which also brings up a good question: in the "dashboard" (as I call it) when playing the game, am I goin to have to read name like "Sir Gaerfyrddin Carmarthen"? that is an eye-full.
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby yeti_c on Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:01 am

MrBenn wrote:Thanks edbeard.

I think yeti had a solution for the deployment problem - I think we can mitigate for it using starting positions, but I haven't fully got my head around that yet...

As for the burn-hole, I'm not sold on it either... It will probably disappear at some point, but I thought it might look better than a mug-stain ;-)


My solution was for 1v1 players - and had limitations in itself (all explained earlier - but feel free to catch me for anymore info you need)

The Burn Mark - Whilst I think it looks amazing - I don't think it works on this map. Less is More.

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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby MrBenn on Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:57 am

The Wyvern wrote:...Which also brings up a good question: in the "dashboard" (as I call it) when playing the game, am I goin to have to read name like "Sir Gaerfyrddin Carmarthen"? that is an eye-full.

'Sir Gaerfyrddin' and 'Carmarthen' are different territories that occupy the same geographical area, so each will have its own entry on the drop-down list.

yeti_c wrote:The Burn Mark - Whilst I think it looks amazing - I don't think it works on this map. Less is More.
yeti_c wrote:
MrBenn wrote:As for the burn-hole, I'm not sold on it either... It will probably disappear at some point.

Change that to definitely disappear ;-)
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby MrBenn on Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:04 am

asl80 wrote:- keep the cultural historical boundaries ... screw the unitary!!! (i don't even know what that means! hehe)
- keep the poetic instruction ... it's not that riddled and actually pretty straightforward.
- i see no need for the burn mark either, there's enough beauty spots on the canvas already.

- on gameplay; i reakon either autodeploy on won of the two shire territories (this would need to be explained), or, if the xml allows, make it, before you deploy your free armies, that you are restricted, shire after shire, to autodeploy on either of the two clans within the corresponding shire.

- or, another option ... have one half of each shire start neutral, and at possibly +4 or ideally +5 ... this would mean it is very hard for a first turn grab (you wouldn't need it auto deploy on this principle i think.
... only problem here though, is that you would then be down to 18 starting territories ... but then, with a start of +3, and no need to attack your opponent straight up on account of territory bonus ... each could go off and get them selves a bonus. (which would give them only +4 from the first one ... not a game defining headstart.
(8 player games could only have 2 starting territories ... i.e. easy eliminations etc. hmmmm)

- third alternative for both the autodeploy and the neutral options ... give each shire another territory, i.e. the two clans and a third "unitary" territory (hahaha, but not that word - poss call it by shire name.), which starts neutral +5 and which you must hold in addition to the two clans ... the bonus could then be auto'd on here.
(i do like that the second option provided smaller starting territories and thus less terr. bonus ... meaning the features of the map would be more important)

anyway ... hope there's at least a little chunk of sustenance in here ... good luck.

Thanks for the input asl ;-)

I'm not sold on the autodeploy idea... but the idea of tinkering with the bonuses gave me an idea...

How about if we got rid of the territory bonus altogether, and had it so you only got the Shire bonuses + region bonuses?
Having said that, it might make the game more unbalanced, especailly as it's only a small map...

I'm going to have a think about possible starting position groups...
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby InsomniaRed on Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:08 am

I say no to the auto deploy and yes to adding a couple more territories and keeping game-play simple. Nothing major, this maps looks great as a small territory count map.

Nice layout and graphics. I really like it. Great work!
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby InsomniaRed on Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:11 am

Hmmm actually the territories are fine, I guess I got confused while reading about them on the front page. I hope I don't get confused when I play it :? But I might anyway. haha. It is original actually, and it would be a good addition.
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby The Wyvern on Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:35 am

MrBenn wrote:How about if we got rid of the territory bonus altogether, and had it so you only got the Shire bonuses + region bonuses?


What if you don't get rid of it and just reduced the territory bonus so that you only ever get 1 or 2 armies, just in case a player doen't have control over a shire or region - it would be pretty unfair they were the only player who wasn't getting any armies at all
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby MrBenn on Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:54 am

InsomniaRed wrote:I say no to the auto deploy and yes to... keeping game-play simple.
Nice layout and graphics. I really like it. Great work!

Thanks InsomniaRed ;-)

The Wyvern wrote:
MrBenn wrote:How about if we got rid of the territory bonus altogether, and had it so you only got the Shire bonuses + region bonuses?


What if you don't get rid of it and just reduced the territory bonus so that you only ever get 1 or 2 armies, just in case a player doen't have control over a shire or region - it would be pretty unfair they were the only player who wasn't getting any armies at all

The more I think about it, the less inclined I am to mess around with deployments etc... it's likely to be confusing enough without changing the things that people will be familiar with...

I've put some thoughts into starting positions... I've put together 8 groups of 4, which means that nobody will start with more than 1 Shire bonus from the drop. The downside to using start positions is that there would be a lot of neutrals on most games... I could get round it by using 16 groups of 2, but then the probability of getting more Shires from the drop increases...

Tentative groupings are: (same-shire territories are indicated with a prefixed letter)
Code: Select all
Group   Terr
1   J - Radnor
1   M - Pembroke
1   O - Glamorgan
1   P - Sir Fynwy

2   A - Anglesey
2   D - Sir y Flint
2   F - Cheshire
2   I - Sir Drefaldwyn

3   A - Sir Fon
3   C - Sir Ddinbych
3   E - Merioneth
3   J - Sir Faesyfed

4   B - Caernarfon
4   F - Sir Gaerllon
4   G - Shropshire
4   L - Sir Aberteifi

5   E - Meirionnydd
5   I - Montgomery
5   K - Sir Frycheiniog
5   N - Carmarthen

6   C - Denbigh
6   H - Sir Henffordd
6   L - Cardigan
6   M - Sir Benfro

7   B - Sir Gaernarfon
7   D - Flint
7   K - Brecknock
7   P - Monmouth

8   G - Sir Amwythig
8   H - Herefordshire
8   N - Sir Gaerfyrddin
8   O - Mogannwyg
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby yeti_c on Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:59 am

Those starting positions aren't going to work.

For 1v1 games - they will be given 4 starts - which will break your combinations.

Also - with starting positions - you will have NO Neutrals for 8,4,2

And then it will break down as follows...

8/3 = 2 starting positions per player - 2 unassigned - 8/3 = 2 random territories per player and 2 neutrals.
8/5 = 1 starting position per player - 3 unassigned - 12/5 = 2 random territories per player and 2 neutrals.
8/6 = 1 starting position per player - 2 unassigned - 8/6 = 1 random territories per player and 2 neutrals.
8/7 = 1 starting position per player - 1 unassigned - 4/7 = 4 neutrals.

As stated before...

I think you only need to stop bonuses on the drop for 1v1 games...

The other games will self level - if someone drops with a bonus - then the other players will see them as the threat and target them... I guess you could extend this to 3 players if necessary - but that might knock out the combinations for 2 players.

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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby gimil on Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:08 am

Sorry, benn but I am completly at a lose with how the gameplay is working via the poem. I don't understand at all what it is trying to say :(

I mainly don't know how to differentiate between shires and clans, maybe if I understand that I will have a better idea of what is going on.
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: Wales [I] Version 10

Postby MrBenn on Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:35 am

OK, here we go with version 10:
    The burn mark has been the subject of a lot of angst, and has accordingly made a swift departure.
    The dark blue blob behind "Gogledd North 3" has been made a bit lighter. It still looks blue enough, but the text should be more visible now (at least that's the hope). I also made the green blob a bit more green.
    I have added a Shire suffix to some territory names to help make the interpretation of the poetry a little easier...

    Each Shire (another word for County) has two 'clans' (armies / CC-territories).

    "To conquer the land your armies can attack any neighbour or same-Shire clan."
    This line explains the attack rule - both armies in a Shire can attack all the armies in neighbouring Shires as well es each other.

    Exert your power over a whole Shire and one more army you shall acquire
    This line explains that you get a +1 bonus for holding both of the armies/clans in a Shire

    Groups of Shires throughout the land will yield more armies unto your hand.
    This line explains that the Shires are grouped into regions (which are colour-coded on the map) and that you can get additional bonuses for conquering an entire region.

    Version 8 (clicky) had army numbers on it. The latest images for Version 10 are below:
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby oaktown on Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:36 pm

gimil wrote:Sorry, benn but I am completly at a lose with how the gameplay is working via the poem. I don't understand at all what it is trying to say :(

I mainly don't know how to differentiate between shires and clans, maybe if I understand that I will have a better idea of what is going on.

I figured it out, but I agree it wasn't entirely clear on my first - or second - read. The first piece of information in the poem needs to be that within each shire there are two clans... may I have a stab at this??

Two Clans reside within each Shire,
Control them both and one army acquire.
To expand your realm your armies can
Attack any neighbor or same-Shire Clan.
[your last stanza here]

Right now your mountains are close but, well, a bit too cute. (Wow, finally I get to talk about somebody else having mountain trouble!!)
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Re: Wales [I] --->Version 10<--- p1/7

Postby MrBenn on Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:18 pm

Thanks for the thoughts on the text... I think I'll use your version Oaky ;-) Any other thoughts on gameplay?

What do others think about the mountains? I've played around with several things, and am reluctant to try again (but I will if needs must!)
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