Wales [Quenched]

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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby MrBenn on Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:04 am

asl80 wrote:- keep the cultural historical boundaries ... screw the unitary!!! (i don't even know what that means! hehe)
- keep the poetic instruction ... it's not that riddled and actually pretty straightforward.
- i see no need for the burn mark either, there's enough beauty spots on the canvas already.

- on gameplay; i reakon either autodeploy on won of the two shire territories (this would need to be explained), or, if the xml allows, make it, before you deploy your free armies, that you are restricted, shire after shire, to autodeploy on either of the two clans within the corresponding shire.

- or, another option ... have one half of each shire start neutral, and at possibly +4 or ideally +5 ... this would mean it is very hard for a first turn grab (you wouldn't need it auto deploy on this principle i think.
... only problem here though, is that you would then be down to 18 starting territories ... but then, with a start of +3, and no need to attack your opponent straight up on account of territory bonus ... each could go off and get them selves a bonus. (which would give them only +4 from the first one ... not a game defining headstart.
(8 player games could only have 2 starting territories ... i.e. easy eliminations etc. hmmmm)

- third alternative for both the autodeploy and the neutral options ... give each shire another territory, i.e. the two clans and a third "unitary" territory (hahaha, but not that word - poss call it by shire name.), which starts neutral +5 and which you must hold in addition to the two clans ... the bonus could then be auto'd on here.
(i do like that the second option provided smaller starting territories and thus less terr. bonus ... meaning the features of the map would be more important)

anyway ... hope there's at least a little chunk of sustenance in here ... good luck.

Thanks for the input asl ;-)

I'm not sold on the autodeploy idea... but the idea of tinkering with the bonuses gave me an idea...

How about if we got rid of the territory bonus altogether, and had it so you only got the Shire bonuses + region bonuses?
Having said that, it might make the game more unbalanced, especailly as it's only a small map...

I'm going to have a think about possible starting position groups...
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby InsomniaRed on Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:08 am

I say no to the auto deploy and yes to adding a couple more territories and keeping game-play simple. Nothing major, this maps looks great as a small territory count map.

Nice layout and graphics. I really like it. Great work!
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby InsomniaRed on Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:11 am

Hmmm actually the territories are fine, I guess I got confused while reading about them on the front page. I hope I don't get confused when I play it :? But I might anyway. haha. It is original actually, and it would be a good addition.
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby The Wyvern on Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:35 am

MrBenn wrote:How about if we got rid of the territory bonus altogether, and had it so you only got the Shire bonuses + region bonuses?


What if you don't get rid of it and just reduced the territory bonus so that you only ever get 1 or 2 armies, just in case a player doen't have control over a shire or region - it would be pretty unfair they were the only player who wasn't getting any armies at all
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby MrBenn on Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:54 am

InsomniaRed wrote:I say no to the auto deploy and yes to... keeping game-play simple.
Nice layout and graphics. I really like it. Great work!

Thanks InsomniaRed ;-)

The Wyvern wrote:
MrBenn wrote:How about if we got rid of the territory bonus altogether, and had it so you only got the Shire bonuses + region bonuses?


What if you don't get rid of it and just reduced the territory bonus so that you only ever get 1 or 2 armies, just in case a player doen't have control over a shire or region - it would be pretty unfair they were the only player who wasn't getting any armies at all

The more I think about it, the less inclined I am to mess around with deployments etc... it's likely to be confusing enough without changing the things that people will be familiar with...

I've put some thoughts into starting positions... I've put together 8 groups of 4, which means that nobody will start with more than 1 Shire bonus from the drop. The downside to using start positions is that there would be a lot of neutrals on most games... I could get round it by using 16 groups of 2, but then the probability of getting more Shires from the drop increases...

Tentative groupings are: (same-shire territories are indicated with a prefixed letter)
Code: Select all
Group   Terr
1   J - Radnor
1   M - Pembroke
1   O - Glamorgan
1   P - Sir Fynwy

2   A - Anglesey
2   D - Sir y Flint
2   F - Cheshire
2   I - Sir Drefaldwyn

3   A - Sir Fon
3   C - Sir Ddinbych
3   E - Merioneth
3   J - Sir Faesyfed

4   B - Caernarfon
4   F - Sir Gaerllon
4   G - Shropshire
4   L - Sir Aberteifi

5   E - Meirionnydd
5   I - Montgomery
5   K - Sir Frycheiniog
5   N - Carmarthen

6   C - Denbigh
6   H - Sir Henffordd
6   L - Cardigan
6   M - Sir Benfro

7   B - Sir Gaernarfon
7   D - Flint
7   K - Brecknock
7   P - Monmouth

8   G - Sir Amwythig
8   H - Herefordshire
8   N - Sir Gaerfyrddin
8   O - Mogannwyg
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby yeti_c on Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:59 am

Those starting positions aren't going to work.

For 1v1 games - they will be given 4 starts - which will break your combinations.

Also - with starting positions - you will have NO Neutrals for 8,4,2

And then it will break down as follows...

8/3 = 2 starting positions per player - 2 unassigned - 8/3 = 2 random territories per player and 2 neutrals.
8/5 = 1 starting position per player - 3 unassigned - 12/5 = 2 random territories per player and 2 neutrals.
8/6 = 1 starting position per player - 2 unassigned - 8/6 = 1 random territories per player and 2 neutrals.
8/7 = 1 starting position per player - 1 unassigned - 4/7 = 4 neutrals.

As stated before...

I think you only need to stop bonuses on the drop for 1v1 games...

The other games will self level - if someone drops with a bonus - then the other players will see them as the threat and target them... I guess you could extend this to 3 players if necessary - but that might knock out the combinations for 2 players.

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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby gimil on Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:08 am

Sorry, benn but I am completly at a lose with how the gameplay is working via the poem. I don't understand at all what it is trying to say :(

I mainly don't know how to differentiate between shires and clans, maybe if I understand that I will have a better idea of what is going on.
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Re: Wales [I] Version 10

Postby MrBenn on Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:35 am

OK, here we go with version 10:
    The burn mark has been the subject of a lot of angst, and has accordingly made a swift departure.
    The dark blue blob behind "Gogledd North 3" has been made a bit lighter. It still looks blue enough, but the text should be more visible now (at least that's the hope). I also made the green blob a bit more green.
    I have added a Shire suffix to some territory names to help make the interpretation of the poetry a little easier...

    Each Shire (another word for County) has two 'clans' (armies / CC-territories).

    "To conquer the land your armies can attack any neighbour or same-Shire clan."
    This line explains the attack rule - both armies in a Shire can attack all the armies in neighbouring Shires as well es each other.

    Exert your power over a whole Shire and one more army you shall acquire
    This line explains that you get a +1 bonus for holding both of the armies/clans in a Shire

    Groups of Shires throughout the land will yield more armies unto your hand.
    This line explains that the Shires are grouped into regions (which are colour-coded on the map) and that you can get additional bonuses for conquering an entire region.

    Version 8 (clicky) had army numbers on it. The latest images for Version 10 are below:
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 9<< p1/6

Postby oaktown on Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:36 pm

gimil wrote:Sorry, benn but I am completly at a lose with how the gameplay is working via the poem. I don't understand at all what it is trying to say :(

I mainly don't know how to differentiate between shires and clans, maybe if I understand that I will have a better idea of what is going on.

I figured it out, but I agree it wasn't entirely clear on my first - or second - read. The first piece of information in the poem needs to be that within each shire there are two clans... may I have a stab at this??

Two Clans reside within each Shire,
Control them both and one army acquire.
To expand your realm your armies can
Attack any neighbor or same-Shire Clan.
[your last stanza here]

Right now your mountains are close but, well, a bit too cute. (Wow, finally I get to talk about somebody else having mountain trouble!!)
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Re: Wales [I] --->Version 10<--- p1/7

Postby MrBenn on Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:18 pm

Thanks for the thoughts on the text... I think I'll use your version Oaky ;-) Any other thoughts on gameplay?

What do others think about the mountains? I've played around with several things, and am reluctant to try again (but I will if needs must!)
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Re: Wales [I] --->Version 10<--- p1/7

Postby yeti_c on Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:12 am

I like the mountains - although - I dislike that some are half coloured - I think it would look cleaner if they were single coloured? (If that makes sense)

Couple of other things - the yellow and red smudges under the names don't match the "continents" as closely as the others - mainly due to orientation - could you rotate them a bit so they're closer to their "reallife" counterparts?!

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Re: Wales [I] --->Version 10<--- p1/7

Postby RjBeals on Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:42 am

Looking good benny.

I agree wit yeti - the mountains would look better 1 color, and not split. But the style is perfect. It's very very hard to nail down mountain ranges - you did a great job here.

My only suggestion is the poem / paragraph visual style. The map itself is on a faded yellow parchment looking background, but the text is deep crisp black. Granted you blurred is on the map edge - but I suggest adding some "grunge" to it. WidowMakers taught me the importance of the grunge layers, and he's very right. I would like to see your poem text blend into the map better - like Mibi did with his Iraq map. That text fits perfectly.

Do you agree.
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Re: Wales [I] --->Version 10<--- p1/7

Postby e_i_pi on Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:04 pm

I agree with 2 previous posters on the mountains. The multiple colours on them doesn't look right, not when there's a nice spraycan inner glow on the continents. Not sure what solution you want to try, but a simple blur between the colours, and then a lightening effect, kinda of like bleach, to leech out the colour a little may remedy things.

I'm a little concerned about the bonuses. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you held South-West continent, you could be attacked from Sir Benfro, Sir Gaerfyrddin, Sir Aberteifi, Montgomeryshire, Radnor, Breconshire, and Glamorgan? Yet it is worth only +3? Seems like it will be quite difficult to hold continents in anything other than 2-4 player or team games. I appreciate it is a small map, and lends itself to smaller player numbers, and also that according to spreadsheet bonuses calculators, it's probably spot on. But given the mirrored gameplay, there is a multitude of possible attack routes. Sure, you only have to defend 3 provinces, but you *have* to defend all 3, you can't lock one behind your main border.

Aside from that it's looking great. I think the gameplay is going to be hard to balance properly, and I don't envy you on that one :)
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Re: Wales [I] --->Version 10<--- p1/7

Postby InsomniaRed on Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:17 am

Once the colors are sorted out on the mountains, I think they'll look fine. The mountains themselves are great. I usually do not pay attention to mountains on maps, but these look top notch to me ;) :P
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby MrBenn on Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:32 pm

All-righty then... Version 11...
    The biggest change is the text - I've gone for Oaktowns poetry, which was marginally superior to mine, although I did have to correct some of the American spellings (neighbor) :roll:
    I've shifted the colours where the mountains meet... Each mountain is now one colour or the other - I tried an attempt with no colour on them, but it just looked wrong, This version looks tidier than the previous one, which is what I was hoping to achieve.
    The text has been mildly grunged, and I've changed the colour to a very dark brown instead of black.
To reiterate how the gameplay is supposed to work; each Shire has two armies. Hold both armies in a Shire for +1. The South-West (red) has 3 Shires, or 6 armies. If you hold this region, you will get (3 x +1) for each Shire, and (1 x +3) for holding the region.

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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby ZeakCytho on Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:45 pm

In the bonuses area at the bottom, you put the name in Welsh on top and the English translation below for all of them except the rightmost one...I think it should be flipped?

Other than that, I don't see any problems.
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby MrBenn on Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:02 pm

Thanks Zeak. I've put the English name on top for all the English areas too... are you just suggesting switching the names on the blobs, or those on the map too?
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby ZeakCytho on Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:25 pm

Having Welsh on top is fine, but my point was you're not consistent. The bonus for the English region says "English/Saesneg" instead of "Saesneg/English"
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby edbeard on Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:24 pm

sorry to say this again but I still don't think the gameplay works. going first is HUH-YUGE on this map.

you've got 2 territory continents all over the place. someone is going to start with a shire. if not multiple people. maybe maaaybe it'll be fine because other people can catch up quite quickly but I'm not sold on that. I really don't know how to fix it since no one has brought a good starting location idea to solve this. I'm not sure one exists. I don't like putting negative feedback without a solution but I don't have one.



mountains look worlds better by the way because of you did the colour.
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby yeti_c on Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:37 am

Mountains much better.

Gameplay - I gave you an idea on how to fix this for 2 player games - would that solve Ed's problem? - Would 3 player games need fixing too? - We can do that too (without impacting too much on the 2 player)

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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby MrBenn on Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:48 am

The starting positions will definitely put in place for 2 player games, although I wish that they could be more customisable...

I've just made an XML suggestion that would also help to avoid the luck of the drop ;-)

If we can;t resolve this gameplay issue, I guess we could tweak it so that you need two Shires to start getting a bonus? Or the Shire bonus could be dropped altogether? Or I could start half the territories neutral so there are 16 start places? - these are all random ideas....
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby yeti_c on Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:56 am

Perhaps "shire" bonuses could only be given if the "county" is over half held? - Not sure if your prose will be able to be manageable for that though.

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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby edbeard on Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:18 am

yeti_c wrote:Mountains much better.

Gameplay - I gave you an idea on how to fix this for 2 player games - would that solve Ed's problem? - Would 3 player games need fixing too? - We can do that too (without impacting too much on the 2 player)

C.


doesn't your idea involve a different XML for 2 player games? No way in hell lack is doing that.


the other ideas are totally unappealing. 16 territories would make for a joke of a game (slightly less so than Doodle because of the neutral territories around but still a joke). yeti's 'half the shire' idea is too far out there in terms of making sense other than just 'we needed something to make the gameplay work'. too random for me. no shire bonuses makes me wonder why you even have the shires. it basically would just mean all the continents are super hard to hold for no real good reason.


there is the possibility that I'm wrong and easily dropped +1 bonuses aren't detrimental to the gameplay. test it out at home?
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby yeti_c on Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:33 am

edbeard wrote:doesn't your idea involve a different XML for 2 player games? No way in hell lack is doing that.


No - it involves having 2 <position> sections - each with the opposing half of each of the shires...

This means that either player will never have a shire bonus (or a county bonus)...

However - it does mean that each 2 player game will start exactly the same.

We *could* extend it to 3 players (i.e. have 3 position tags)

where each player gets 1/3 of the territories - the other 1/3 will be randomised in the 1v1 game (with a 1/3 of those being neutral)

All of this is possible with the current XML.

C.
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Re: Wales [I] >>Version 11<< p1/7

Postby MrBenn on Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:30 pm

Onwards and Upwards... Version 12:
    I've added some grunge to the rest of the text on the map
    The region names on the English bonus blob been switched so that the Welsh translation is on the top
    The bonus blobs for Midlands and South-West have been redone so they look more like the regions on the map.
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I think that the grpahics are pretty much there now, maybe just some minor tweaks required?
The gameplay needs ironing out... I'm trying to get my head round the probability and impact of receiving shire bonuses on the drop...
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