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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby grayhawke on Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:47 pm

Might I re-suggest adding artillery? say 8 artillery territs (5 Allies, 3 French)? As well as increasing the territs they would also provide the possibility of mid-to-long-range bombardment, restricted by position (left, centre, right) maybe?

If 8 is thought too many then maybe 5? (split 3,2)
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby pamoa on Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:31 am

captainwalrus wrote:The bonuses are weird. I don't really know where the centre left wing and right wing is, especially because the map is more vertical than horizontal. Also, it would be interesting to have some sort of victory conditions which make Napoleon and Alexander more important.A battle centred around them would be fun....

I added the two following points to the to do list
    - creating some victory conditions (some suggestions?)
    - making graphically the wings more obvious


grayhawke wrote:Might I re-suggest adding artillery? say 8 artillery territs (5 Allies, 3 French)? As well as increasing the territs they would also provide the possibility of mid-to-long-range bombardment, restricted by position (left, centre, right) maybe? If 8 is thought too many then maybe 5? (split 3,2)

No I don't want it to be as complex as Waterloo beside cavalry is already some long range effect with such a condensed map. You can jump very quickly from one end of the map to the other.
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby grayhawke on Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:11 pm

I still feel a few more territs would not go amiss - another 4 would give 7-players 5 territs, and 6-players 6 territs.
I'd suggest another 3 villages (Augzed, Hostieradek, and Holubitz) plus the Austrian Commander, FML Prince Liechtenstein (no separate bonus but perhaps +1 for all 3 Commanders)

I also think it might be helpful if, rather than talking of left and right wings, the terms north flank and south flank were used.
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby grayhawke on Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:48 pm

Victory conditions
  • French victory - hold Napoleon + French centre + Allied centre (16 territs)
  • Allied victory - hold Alexandre + Liechtenstein + Allied centre and south + French south + Pratzen (16 territs)
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby Qwert on Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:35 pm

hmm,im look on Order of battle in Wikipedia,and i belive that you can create close to 50 territory.
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby grayhawke on Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:16 pm

qwert wrote:hmm,im look on Order of battle in Wikipedia,and i belive that you can create close to 50 territory.

Keeping to Division level I don't see how we get much beyond 30 inf.+cav. territs. The leitmotif for this map appears to be "simplicity" and the current 29+2+3 territs supports that, though I think my suggestion for 29+3+6 territs also keeps the simplicitly while improving game play.

Speaking for myself I like this map and would like to see a series of such "simple" Napoleonic battle maps including one for Waterloo. :shock:
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby Qwert on Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:28 pm

Keeping to Division level I don't see how we get much beyond 30 inf.+cav. territs. The leitmotif for this map appears to be "simplicity" and the current 29+2+3 territs supports that, though I think my suggestion for 29+3+6 territs also keeps the simplicitly while improving game play.

Speaking for myself I like this map and would like to see a series of such "simple" Napoleonic battle maps including one for Waterloo.

But he can explore some of divisions, and these is best solution for creating more territory.
--------------
LA GRANDE ARMEE
26.NAPOLEON
-Garde Imperiale Marshal Bessiere
1.Infantry Of the Guard
2.Cavalry of the Guard
3.Artilery of the Guard

-I Corps Marshal Bernadotte
4.Advanced Guard
5.1 st Division General Raffiniere
6.2nd Division General Drouet
7.Light Cavalry General Kellerman

-III Corps Marshal Davout
8.2nd Division General Friant
9.4th Dragoon Division General Bourcier
10.III Corps Artillery

-IV CORPS Marshal Soult
11.1st Dicvision General Saint-Hilarie
12.2nd Division General Vandamme
13.3rd Division General Legrand
14.Light Cavalry Division General Margaron
15.IV Corps Artillery

-V Corps Marshal Lannes
16.1st Division General Caffarelli
17.3rd Division General Suchet
18.Light Cavarly Division General Trelliard
19.V Corps Artillery



20.Grenadier Division General Oudinot

-Cavalry Reserve Marshal Murat
21.1sr Heavy Cavalry Division General Nansouti
22.2nd Heavy Cavalry Division General d'Hautpoul
23.2nd Dragoon Division General Walther
24.3rd Dragoon Division General Beaumont
25.Light Cavalry Brigade General Milhaud
--------------------------------
ARMY OF THIRD COALITION
1.Kutusov
2.von Liechtenstein

-The Russian Imperial Guard Grand Duke Constantine
3.Russian Infantry of the Guard
4.Russian Cavalry of the Guard

-Advanced Guard of the Tsar Army General Bagration
5.Russian Infantry
6.Russian Cavalry

-Advanced Guard of General Buxhowden
7.1st Infantry Brigade General Carnevile
8.1st Cavalry Brigade General Nostitz
9.2nd cavalry Brigade General Lichtenstein


-First Column General Dokhturov
10.1st Infantry Brigade General Lewis
11.2nd Infantry Brigade General Urusov

-Second Column General Langeron
12.1st Infantry Brigade General Olsuvev
13.2nd Infantry Brigade General Kamensky

-Third Column General Przebyszewski
14.1st Infantry Brigade General Muller
15.2nd Infantry Brigade General Selekhov

-Fourth Column General Miloradovich
16.Advanced Guard Colonel Monakhtin
17.1st Infantry Brigade General Wodniansky
18.2nd Infantry Brigade General Rottermund
19.3rd Infantry Brigade General Jurczik

-Fifth (Cavalry) Column General Prince Johann von Lienchensteine
20.1st Cavalry Brigade General Caramelli
21.2nd Cavalry Brigade General Weber
22.3rd Cavalry Brigade General Gladkov
23.4th Cavalry Brigade general Uvarov
----------------------------------------
Like you see i create 26 France and 23 Coalition Units(territory).OFcourse need more research(from your side)to create 3-4 artillery units from Coalition side.
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby pamoa on Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:25 am

Qwert if you want another map make another map! :evil:

grayhawke I'll look at your proposal no time right now but seems interesting
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby Qwert on Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:43 am

by pamoa » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:25 am

Qwert if you want another map make another map!

grayhawke I'll look at your proposal no time right now but seems interesting

Mine apology, i read some conversation abouth adding more territory(and these is possible),
but if you got something against mine simple sugestion, then i will remove from these topic permanently.
Sorry for all problems what im create.
If you want i can erase these previous post with proposed territory,to people dont be confused with these idea.
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby pamoa on Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:50 am

cairnswk wrote:Do not end the project, otherwise i will have to do it....hahahaha!! :)
Please go on and do a medium size version + 32 armies....i think 60-70 should be a good number
This is an important historical map and should be in the cc collection. Good luck.

qwert wrote:hmm, I look on Order of battle in Wikipedia,and I believe that you can create close to 50 territory.

qwert wrote:Mine apology, I read some conversation about adding more territory(and these is possible), but if you got something against mine simple suggestion, then I will remove from these topic permanently. Sorry for all problems what I create. If you want I can erase these previous post with proposed territory,to people don't be confused with these idea.

Qwert, sorry for going mad about this but I left this project like 6 month because of the size discussion. I decided to start it again being convinced about my first intuition about size. I like the condensed effect of the map, I don't want it being a big apocalyptic mess. So I do not want to move from this size around 30 territs. But if you have some comments about any other topic you are warmly welcome.

ben79 wrote:continue la ta map .. j'aime bien le concept et tu devrais dire dans ta mini-histoire que le move que Napoleon a fait à cette bataille était du jamais vu en cette époque et lui a valu l'admiration de tous !!! ben

Of course I can tell a lot about the battle but it's not an history lesson only a game. If anyone think I should tell more about the tactics employed by Napoleon I will add some more text.

grayhawke wrote:I still feel a few more territs would not go amiss - another 4 would give 7-players 5 territs, and 6-players 6 territs.
I'd suggest another 3 villages (Augzed, Hostieradek, and Holubitz) plus the Austrian Commander, FML Prince Liechtenstein (no separate bonus but perhaps +1 for all 3 Commanders)

After good reflection 32 is an optimal number
    2 players = 16 territorries (+5 bonus armies) 2 conquest needed to loose or gain a bonus army
    3 players = 10 territories (+3 bonus armies) 2 conquest needed to gain a bonus army
      33 would be 11 each and so 1 conquest to gain a bonus army
    4 players = 8 territories
    5 players = 6 territories
    6 players = 5 territories
    7 & 8 players = 4 territories

33 territories is already a problem with 3 players,
and 36 would be a problem with 2 and 3 players as they would be at the +4/+6 bonus limit and the starting player can immediately break those bonus.
Beside the 3 villages you wanted to add where not major points of the battle.

Adding Liechtenstein, why not as he would start neutral but I'm missing a bit space at the centre and wasn't he all the battle with Alexander commanding staff?


grayhawke wrote:I also think it might be helpful if, rather than talking of left and right wings, the terms north flank and south flank were used.

Sure I'll change it and it will be easier to find on the map.

grayhawke wrote:Victory conditions
  • French victory - hold Napoleon + French centre + Allied centre (16 territs)
  • Allied victory - hold Alexandre + Liechtenstein + Allied centre and south + French south + Pratzen (16 territs)

What about a more simple: Hold the central battlefield for victory (Pratzen, French and Allied centre and the 3 commanders)
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v02 11mar2009

Postby grayhawke on Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:55 am

pamoa wrote:After good reflection 32 is an optimal number
...
Beside the 3 villages you wanted to add where not major points of the battle.

Adding Liechtenstein, why not as he would start neutral but I'm missing a bit space at the centre and wasn't he all the battle with Alexander commanding staff?


grayhawke wrote:Victory conditions
  • French victory - hold Napoleon + French centre + Allied centre (16 territs)
  • Allied victory - hold Alexandre + Liechtenstein + Allied centre and south + French south + Pratzen (16 territs)

What about a more simple: Hold the central battlefield for victory (Pratzen, French and Allied centre and the 3 commanders)

We'll just have to disagree about the number of territs - it's your map aand I'll respect your considered decision.

I was under the impression that Liechenstein was with his cavalry command on the North flank, but I could be mistaken.

As for the victory conditions I was trying to reflect the differing strategies, but your "hold the centre" option sums up the battle just as well.
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby pamoa on Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:54 am

v03 new features: bonus for the three villages, victory conditions, showing the the wings, adding prince Von Lichtenstein
This is the small map 600x630 pixels
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby grayhawke on Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:07 pm

Attack Lines
Do the attack lines run through un-named villages and Austerlitz, and/or cross other roads? For example can Dokhturov attack Alexander? or can Voropaitzki attack Telnitz?

Battlefield Divisions
I still think north/south flanks are less confusing than allied/french-right/left flanks. I'm also not entirely convinced that the division-braces are the best visual device. Perhaps use 2 shades of blue, green and red to differentiate the centre from the flanks? or use a background colour to the text for names of the central territs?
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby pamoa on Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:39 pm

grayhawke wrote:Do the attack lines run through un-named villages and Austerlitz, and/or cross other roads? For example can Dokhturov attack Alexander? or can Voropaitzki attack Telnitz?

yes they do but i'll remove the part behind Voropatzki-Engelhardt until the white road so the back attack line would only be:
    Voropatzki-Engelhardt
    Alexandre-Dokturov
    Margaron-Oudinot-Napoléon-Drouet-Suchet

grayhawke wrote:I still think north/south flanks are less confusing than allied/french-right/left flanks. I'm also not entirely convinced that the division-braces are the best visual device. Perhaps use 2 shades of blue, green and red to differentiate the centre from the flanks? or use a background colour to the text for names of the central territs?

I'll work on some visual differentiation for the flanks
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby MrBenn on Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:47 am

Nice work pamoa ;-)

Consider adding some colour to the legend (ie red/green/blue) to distinguish the different armies.
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby tlane on Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:51 am

I dont know if anyone has said this, but could you make the text on the top at least one size bigger
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby pamoa on Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:30 am

MrBenn wrote:Consider adding some colour to the legend (ie red/green/blue) to distinguish the different armies.

I'll try but I'm not a big fan of Christmas tree legend box...

tlane wrote:I dont know if anyone has said this, but could you make the text on the top at least one size bigger

if I make it bigger it would too long and would need to add more lines which is impossible
but if you consider this is the small map (there will be a bigger one) and this id only contextual informations that are not vital for gameplay
I think I can leave it as it is
but thanks for asking
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby TaCktiX on Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:48 am

It's an intriguing map, certainly, but I think it needs a change in perspective. Right now, a lot of the text required to understand the bonus structure on the maps (the flanks) are written in small type sideways. I literally craned my neck to make sure I could read it properly. I would suggest that you rotate the entire map 90 degrees to the right. Here's what would change:

- Austerlitz is now on the bottom middle.
- The flank markers are now along the top and bottom of the fronts, so you can adjust the font to be slightly larger (a requirement even if you don't rotate the map) and readable straight across
- The title graphic will likely need to go to the top right, with the introductory text along the top middle (more space available there, be mindful of the French Right Flank)
- All sprite graphics and associated text will need to be rotated
- Bonus text to the bottom left
- Add a compass rose noting North if you desire

That looks like all that needs to be addressed on that front, no pun intended. If you've layered it out well it should be easy to do and it'll make the map much easier to read.

Does a very involved suggestion count? I think so, Napoleon's battle just got
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby RjBeals on Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:46 am

Click image to enlarge.
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First off, I've been meaning to comment in this thread simply because this map is awesome. You really did a great job of creating a truly unique map - with amazing visuals. You've got quite a nice design style.

I'm a simple guy - and complicated gameplay usually does me in. This sort of overwhelms me. Sorry. I wonder if you could space out the players a bit more to make the attack routes a little clearer? You've got a lot of extra playing space on the map.

"Holding the 3 villages" took me a while to figure out. The villages are in silver? So they will start neutral? See all those other villages around the right of the screen? They have brown attack lines leading to and from them, so I thought those were going to be villages in play. Maybe make a pixel village icon to match the army icons so the villages stand out more.

Well - I don't have much time, so thats all i have for now. Beautiful map though - nice work.
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby sailorseal on Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:37 pm

All I would suggest is clarifying it up a little, increasing the size of the text and maybe adding more territories.
Great Map! :D
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby ustus on Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:40 pm

pamoa wrote:
MrBenn wrote:Consider adding some colour to the legend (ie red/green/blue) to distinguish the different armies.

I'll try but I'm not a big fan of Christmas tree legend box...

tlane wrote:I dont know if anyone has said this, but could you make the text on the top at least one size bigger

if I make it bigger it would too long and would need to add more lines which is impossible
but if you consider this is the small map (there will be a bigger one) and this id only contextual informations that are not vital for gameplay
I think I can leave it as it is
but thanks for asking


If you're using Photoshop, you could rasterize (CS) or simplify (elements) the text layer so that you can scale it and only increase the size in directions where there's actually room. This may have the same effect as increasing the font size without requiring you to wrap to the next layer. You could also then make sure there is no extra space on the sides, though it will probably not have too much effect there. You do have some extra room to the left of the type to fill, so maybe you can pull off the difference this way.

On the other hand, there isn't much space to move it into, so this might not work. good luck.

I'll not comment further, as I know photoshop a lot better than cartography, and even for what little i do know, I don't play scenario maps. just my preference. Graphically, this looks nice. I like the way it looks like a battle plan.
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby MrBenn on Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:30 pm

ustus wrote:If you're using Photoshop, you could rasterize (CS) or simplify (elements) the text layer so that you can scale it and only increase the size in directions where there's actually room. This may have the same effect as increasing the font size without requiring you to wrap to the next layer.

You should never rasterize your text layers, unless you're adding filters to them - even then I suggest creating a copy of them first.

You should be able to resize (transform) the text to fill the gap... You could also look to abridge the text and cut some of it out?
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby pamoa on Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:42 am

TaCktiX wrote:... I would suggest that you rotate the entire map 90 degrees to the right... (clockwise)

very interesting solution, I like the way you changed the point of view (literally and metaphorically)
I have one problem with it it is about divisions symbols, now they are facing
but if I turn the map they will be one atop of each other and I will loose the graphic confrontation
I really remain uncertain about your proposition as I also like the way it solve some other problems...


RjBeals wrote:... I wonder if you could space out the players a bit more to make the attack routes a little clearer? You've got a lot of extra playing space on the map.

"Holding the 3 villages" took me a while to figure out. The villages are in silver? So they will start neutral? See all those other villages around the right of the screen? They have brown attack lines leading to and from them, so I thought those were going to be villages in play. Maybe make a pixel village icon to match the army icons so the villages stand out more...

I'll work on the attack route to make clear which are and which not

for the villages, I already tried to put some symbol but didn't any convincing, any suggestions
the other villages can not be in the game as they don't have any army count on it
and they are not starting neutral as they are part of the 32 starting positions
only leaders are starting neutral as you can see on the map


sailorseal wrote:All I would suggest is clarifying it up a little, increasing the size of the text and maybe adding more territories.

clarifying in what way ?!?
for the size of the context explanation text remember this is small map and i do not have more room for it
the number of territory issue as already been adressed


ustus wrote:...the text layer so that you can scale it and only increase the size in directions where there's actually room... On the other hand, there isn't much space to move it into, so this might not work...

see above
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby ustus on Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:11 pm

ok, sorry for my bad advice then. I didn't know you could resize text with a transformation without rasterizing. And i would certainly have suggested copying first, that's kind of a given.
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Re: AUSTERLITZ v03 22mar2009

Postby tlane on Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:36 pm

pamoa wrote:for the villages, I already tried to put some symbol but didn't any convincing, any suggestions

One idea would be to put a big 'V', like the 'N' you have on Napoleon. I don't know how this would look, but it is one idea i have.

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