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Peloponnesian War [Done]

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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby neanderpaul14 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:44 pm

Mad-elph wrote:I've just started on this map having not noticed it addition until last week. I really enjoy it for what it is, but I do have issues with the design in context of history. I have not read all 36 pages on this so maybe its been already responded to. I read the first 3 and the last 3. Anyway, I am a Classics and Political Science student and my senior seminar is on the Peloponnesian War, the work of Thucydides. I think this map's design is misguided for the Peloponnesian War. Its a great map but does not really capture the battles or real territory of dispute in the Pelo war. The fact that noone starts in the Peloponnese is a huge red haring, and going there does nothing for you really. I am guessing that you just took the Ancient Greece or Alexander map and fused them.

I would love to contribute to an accurate depiction, and don't want to dismay the designer, but I think its faulty in that it put more emphasis on fights in Asia Minor and Thrace instead of Hellas and some cycladic islands. Furthermore names such as Pontus, Romans, Persians are wrong for the era. In 431 Rome had not united Italy. Persia was in dismay and did little for either side in the war. Pontus was a Persian settlement that didn't do anything during the war. Instead of Rome you should have Sicily which is a big part of Athens War, as they wanted the Sicilian wheat and to dominate Syracuse, much to their failure.
Emphasis should be put to a lower level... It should be on empires and their vassal states, Athens should get a bonus if it holds Pylos, or Potidea etc. Sparta if it takes Delos or controls Attica or the Argives.

The map should exclude Asia for the most part. Rhodes, Crete, Halicarnasus (where most of my playing of the map have found to be the focal point) have minor involvement, acting only as tributaries to Athens in the later part of the War. Halicarnasus is from Alexander's exploits. As far East as the map should go is the inclusion of Lesbos as that is really as far as this war is concerned Eastward. To the north you can cut some too. I know this plays down the maneuvering there but its all wrong. There is a lot in the war over the Chalcidian lands.
If scaled right you could have more regions in the Peloponnese, a few in Chalcidia etc... the emphasis should be on cities here as that is how they battled. Laying siege to cities and commanding the surrounding area. When you wanted to attack someone you'd land an army, ravage the land so they had no food stuffs and if they came out of their fortress you'd battle them, if not you'd leave to fight another summer.

I'd love to help make an appropriate map... If you want me to I can try, but I can't do too much until Dec, when I finish my degree.




Ummmmmmm..........??????

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy Crap Mad-elph your a little, and by a little I mean incredibly, late on posting that this map needs a complete and total overhaul. This map has been in production for nearly a year, and has been available for play for several months now. If you wished to make a post like this that time was about 11 months ago.

I love this map. It looks awesome, and it has excellent game play on several different settings. The objective of all 8 shields however is completely unrealistic and should be removed entirely, in my opinion, and not modified.

If this map's slight historical inaccuracies offend your college level understanding of this period that much then don't play it. Plain and simple.

Furthermore if qwert's depiction of this war truly offend you that much then just make a new map that doesn't offend your uni sensibilities. Don't expect a completed map to be changed simply because it doesn't agree with your little thesis.

Oh and by the way your vain attempt at showing everyone how smart you are has not impressed me in the least.
Last edited by neanderpaul14 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Captain_Scarlet on Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:54 pm

Mad-elph wrote:I've just started on this map having not noticed it addition until last week. I really enjoy it for what it is, but I do have issues with the design in context of history. I have not read all 36 pages on this so maybe its been already responded to. I read the first 3 and the last 3. Anyway, I am a Classics and Political Science student and my senior seminar is on the Peloponnesian War, the work of Thucydides. I think this map's design is misguided for the Peloponnesian War. Its a great map but does not really capture the battles or real territory of dispute in the Pelo war. The fact that noone starts in the Peloponnese is a huge red haring, and going there does nothing for you really. I am guessing that you just took the Ancient Greece or Alexander map and fused them.

I would love to contribute to an accurate depiction, and don't want to dismay the designer, but I think its faulty in that it put more emphasis on fights in Asia Minor and Thrace instead of Hellas and some cycladic islands. Furthermore names such as Pontus, Romans, Persians are wrong for the era. In 431 Rome had not united Italy. Persia was in dismay and did little for either side in the war. Pontus was a Persian settlement that didn't do anything during the war. Instead of Rome you should have Sicily which is a big part of Athens War, as they wanted the Sicilian wheat and to dominate Syracuse, much to their failure.
Emphasis should be put to a lower level... It should be on empires and their vassal states, Athens should get a bonus if it holds Pylos, or Potidea etc. Sparta if it takes Delos or controls Attica or the Argives.

The map should exclude Asia for the most part. Rhodes, Crete, Halicarnasus (where most of my playing of the map have found to be the focal point) have minor involvement, acting only as tributaries to Athens in the later part of the War. Halicarnasus is from Alexander's exploits. As far East as the map should go is the inclusion of Lesbos as that is really as far as this war is concerned Eastward. To the north you can cut some too. I know this plays down the maneuvering there but its all wrong. There is a lot in the war over the Chalcidian lands.
If scaled right you could have more regions in the Peloponnese, a few in Chalcidia etc... the emphasis should be on cities here as that is how they battled. Laying siege to cities and commanding the surrounding area. When you wanted to attack someone you'd land an army, ravage the land so they had no food stuffs and if they came out of their fortress you'd battle them, if not you'd leave to fight another summer.

I'd love to help make an appropriate map... If you want me to I can try, but I can't do too much until Dec, when I finish my degree.


yawn

By the way, I actually studied Thucydides and so what? (plus your grammar needs reviewing)

This is a GAME ! It's a great map to PLAY!

This is a democracy and anyone can contribute BUT but you have not played a 100 games yet, are freemium and in addition you just stopped suckling on the Classic map - perhaps playing the maps for fun would benefit you somewhat :roll:

Pelo map plays really well as it is :D and the objective aspect has never been a consideration for me
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby GasMask45 on Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:33 pm

I totally agree, who cares about the historical aspect of the map, for me that's more a basis that we build on. The point of the game is to have fun. I love this map (despite not having yet finished a game on it). I feel lucky to have joined a tournament that got me started on this map. Great work everybody =D> =D> =D>
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Raskholnikov on Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:53 pm

Mad,

This map was not designed to re-create the strategic and tactical details of the Pelloponesian war as it actually occurred. It simply aimed to use the geographical space of Ancient Greece to create a fun game for up to eight players, based on the concept of Starting Points.

You can, if course, design a map focusing specifically on re=creating a detailed map of the PW as it happened. That would be most welcome, but it would be a different map and a different game, There is enough room at CC for both, I am sure...

R.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Harijan on Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:07 pm

do you win by holding all 8 shields at the end of your turn? or do you need to hold all 8 shields at the beginning of your turn (ie hold shields for one full round).
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby the.killing.44 on Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:14 pm

Harijan wrote:do you win by holding all 8 shields at the end of your turn? or do you need to hold all 8 shields at the beginning of your turn (ie hold shields for one full round).

Full round.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby neanderpaul14 on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:16 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:
Harijan wrote:do you win by holding all 8 shields at the end of your turn? or do you need to hold all 8 shields at the beginning of your turn (ie hold shields for one full round).

Full round.



Has anyone ever achieved this objective? I've played this map many times and on numerous settings and no one has even come close. It seems to me the only way to accomplish this would be to hold a game hostage, by not going for the kill.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Harijan on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:46 am

neanderpaul14 wrote:Has anyone ever achieved this objective? I've played this map many times and on numerous settings and no one has even come close. It seems to me the only way to accomplish this would be to hold a game hostage, by not going for the kill.


I am considering going for the 8 shield win in this game. Seems much easier than beating red down. The Adjacent reinforcements coupled with the isolated bonuses makes this map rather unique. Red has just as many, if not more, troops than I do (depending on the round) but he can't bring them to bear on me fast enough. Given those setting, going for the 8 shields seems an easier win that trying to beat him down.

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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Harijan on Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:12 pm

Just won it with 8 shields. The last opponent had 30+ more armies and a strength advantage over me. He just didn't have his troops in the right places to win. So it is possible, and it was much easier/faster than waiting him out.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby neanderpaul14 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:19 pm

Harijan wrote:Just won it with 8 shields. The last opponent had 30+ more armies and a strength advantage over me. He just didn't have his troops in the right places to win. So it is possible, and it was much easier/faster than waiting him out.
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Wow....It is possible....... I'll be damned.......nice. Good job Harijan.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby danryan on Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:33 pm

neanderpaul14 wrote:
the.killing.44 wrote:
Harijan wrote:do you win by holding all 8 shields at the end of your turn? or do you need to hold all 8 shields at the beginning of your turn (ie hold shields for one full round).

Full round.



Has anyone ever achieved this objective? I've played this map many times and on numerous settings and no one has even come close. It seems to me the only way to accomplish this would be to hold a game hostage, by not going for the kill.


I'd say no spoils adjacent would be the only setting, and it looks like it happened!
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Raskholnikov on Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:01 pm

Why exactly is this game still in Beta? Others have leapfrogged it out of Beta... Is there any problem we know of that is holding it back or needs more testing?
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby neanderpaul14 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:04 pm

Raskholnikov wrote:Why exactly is this game still in Beta? Others have leapfrogged it out of Beta... Is there any problem we know of that is holding it back or needs more testing?



I believe it has to do with the ongoing discussion about the objective.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Raskholnikov on Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:33 pm

Ah. well I think this has been solved. It can be done. Not easily, but it can - and not just by stalling the game. Hopefully this will speed up the process. This is one of the most enjoyable CC maps IMHO and deserves to be out of Beta ASAP.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby neanderpaul14 on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:50 pm

Raskholnikov wrote:Ah. well I think this has been solved. It can be done. Not easily, but it can - and not just by stalling the game. Hopefully this will speed up the process. This is one of the most enjoyable CC maps IMHO and deserves to be out of Beta ASAP.


=D> =D> =D> =D>
Couldn't agree more. One of my favorites right from the first time I played it.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby matcoco on Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:13 pm

It is my first post and I 'm apologizing for the grammar... my writting skills are low.
I will tried to explain my point in few sentences. I agree with Mad-elph, when you play it has to be fun but a minimum of historical background will improve much more the map. If it is not the point of the map, why austerlitz, WWII and other map or here?
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Raskholnikov on Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:26 pm

Some maps stick close to historical details; others focus more on playability. As long as the author meets Foundry criteria, his vision of the map and game is respected. Pelloponesian war is different from Austerlitz; there is no attempt to recreate any specific Pelloponesian Campaign or battle, but to use the area of Ancient Greece and Asia Minor for a fun starting-points game. Qwertl did a great job with it and many of us love the map and play it again and again - which , really, is the point of all maps here ;)
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby number five on Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:08 pm

im not getting my bonus for ambrociotas
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Teflon Kris on Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:25 am

It looks like the objective discussion stalled as qwert didn't comment himself - he has kind of 'quit' map-making and the foundry.

Which leaves the foundry with the problem of either changing the objective and/or neutral values without the map-maker's consent, or, and this seems like a reasonable option after all this time: simply moving the map out of Beta as it is.

Nobody is particularly unhappy with the gameplay, and a huge number of players like it.

As it stands, the objective is pretty pointless - the best tactic is to ignore it - occassionally it finishes a no spoils game a couple of rounds early, but only when the game is over anyway. It therefore isn't a problem whatsoever once players have realised it is pointless.

I would support moving it out of Beta as it is.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Raskholnikov on Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:11 am

I totally support this.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby wolfpack0530 on Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:55 pm

I love the map and play it all the time. In discussing this with my clan mates and others who play with me, we all agree that Persians is far and away the best starting position on the map. There is virtually no chance that somebody is gonna break through from the west with all of those 6s there untill the spoils hit 30 or so. I think one or more of those 6s need to be lowered to 2s.

That is my only suggestion.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Echospree on Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:12 pm

wolfpack0530 wrote:I love the map and play it all the time. In discussing this with my clan mates and others who play with me, we all agree that Persians is far and away the best starting position on the map. There is virtually no chance that somebody is gonna break through from the west with all of those 6s there untill the spoils hit 30 or so. I think one or more of those 6s need to be lowered to 2s.

That is my only suggestion.


I agree. I suggest the Boeotians be dropped to 2 neutrals. The only major change is that the Skyros start will be able to capture Lacedaemonians after crashing through only one set of 6, while the Romans and Persians will still have to go through 2 of these. Going in this direction is fairly rare, so not a major concern. This reduces the number of sixes between Skyros and the Persian to only one, a number seen consistently around the map.

The Objective issue is not a major concern, maybe simply rewording it to make it obvious you need to capture and hold.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby jman10012 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:54 pm

I've played this map about 7 times. It's one of my favorites. I dont see much else you could do to improve it. But my sughestions for this map are FOW for sure and unlimited reinforcements. If you do this map with adjacent reinforcements(actually trying to do one right now) its a real bite in the butt. I always seem to start in Turkey and i take it then someone comes from the south and kills me.
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby Gilligan on Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:02 pm

I thought the reason it was being held back in Beta was because it was unbalanced with the number of neutrals?
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Re: Peloponnesian War [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:41 pm

MrBenn wrote:I've read through the last couple of pages, and think that there are the following concerns about the map:

1. Wording of the objective - Capture vs Hold
2. Elimiotes coordinate needs to be moved 1 pixel to the left.
3. Boeotians becomes a 2 neutral instead of a 6 neutral
4. There was some talk about making the objective require any 4/5 shields rather than all 8
5. Possibly bumping up the sword territories to 4 neutrals
6. The area surrounding the Samotkrace/Imbrians area is not clear enough. An easy and very quick solution would be to move the second line of greek text below the first, and off-set to the right a bit, then move "Imbrians" up and to the right a few pixels.
7. Is there a way to fix this? That is, so every starting point has equal access to swords?
What is popular opinion on these issues?

MrBenn wrote:Right.... here's my recommendation...

1. I've always been an advocate of changing the wording of the objective... so that should be done.

2. At the end of the day, what does 1 pixel really matter? Could be changed, but could equally be overlooked

3. We can reduce the starting neutral in Boeotians without any hassle, so that should be done.

4. I have been a strong advocate of making the objective slightly more relevant. Ideally, I think holding any 6 shields should suffice, except for the fact that there are 6 of them clustered in the South of the map. To make it fair, then it would need to be hold any 7 shields, although this still gives a slight advantage to whoever starts in the South. With this in mind, while I think that the objective should be more relevant to the map, I think that any other requirement than holding all of them would require too much tinkering with the map as a whole. Despite my better judgement, I think that this should be left alone now. :-(

5. Fiddling around with the swords would require too much tinkering to other neutral values, and should probably be avoided at this stage.

6. There has been a mixture of opinion about this - it's fairly subjective, and could swing either way. If it's easy to shift things around, then why not do it; if it's going to be too much hassle now, this could be left as it is.

7. See #5.

As qwert is still refusing to answer directly, then I imagine that an intermediary shall be tasked with making the above changes (which is why I've erred on the side of ease with my recommendations), working from a flat-file (unless a PSD is forthcoming)

The changes that are required are really only minor. Since the posts I made previously, there has been fairly little evidence of significant imbalance; the objective remains tricky to achieve, but fiddling it would make things more awkward.

The following are the outstanding amendments that need to be done to release this map from Beta:

1. Wording of the objective - "Capture and hold all 8 Shields to win the war"
(2. Elimiotes coordinate needs to be moved 1 pixel to the left.) - not significant
3. Boeotians becomes a 2 neutral instead of a 6 neutral.
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