Peloponnesian War [Done]

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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby Qwert on Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:40 pm

by The Neon Peon on Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:19 am

Why are the three shields right next to the inset? 2 of them border each other, then the third is a territory away... shouldn't they be a little farther apart at least?

Can you give me some sugestion.
I realy try to find some other importan Cities,but in these war-Boeotians(thebes)Athenians(athens)Corintians(Corinth)Lacedaemonians(SPartan),are major powers,and without these,will not be War. ;)
Any way,you dont get bonuses for Shields,you need to hold all 8 shields to win a War(game).
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby asl80 on Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:03 pm

looking good qwert
two small suggestions;

* change the wording from "win a war" to "win the war" ... the first sounds in english like each of the shields will give you something ... the second is more total.

* make the two "blobs" for the "map inset" and "objectives etc." touch eacother ... i.e. make them one bigger blob and push them a tiny bit more into the corner to seperate them better from the rest of the land mass.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby Qwert on Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:11 am

by asl80 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:03 am

looking good qwert
two small suggestions;

* change the wording from "win a war" to "win the war" ... the first sounds in english like each of the shields will give you something ... the second is more total.

* make the two "blobs" for the "map inset" and "objectives etc." touch eacother ... i.e. make them one bigger blob and push them a tiny bit more into the corner to seperate them better from the rest of the land mass.

I get these sugestion from Mrbeen,but i forget on that,i hope that im not forget when im next time update.

Blobs? What these mean? Can you show me visual,no need to be artisitic,just create something to understand .
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby asl80 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:08 am

* actually, it would have to say "Capture all the shields to win the war"

* well here goes with the blobs ... hehe ...

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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby The Neon Peon on Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:21 am

What did you do with the legend? It looked fine before, but needed one word added
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby Qwert on Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:14 pm

:lol: Asl you dont need to show all map,just these part of map.
I see what you mean,i have some idea abouth that.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby asl80 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:57 pm

qwert wrote::lol: Asl you dont need to show all map,just these part of map.
I see what you mean,i have some idea abouth that.

hehehehehehehe
how's my microsoft paint skills ... pretty good 'ey, hahahahaha ... neonpeon thought it was yours hehehehe
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby The Neon Peon on Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:30 am

Once you take out all the territories a player has, you are yourself not doing so well.

A person has a minimum of 3 deploy, so to keep them inside that one last territory, you would need 4 men (because of dice, attacker's advantage). 4 men out of your army will only leave you with 1 or 2 left for other parts of the game.

I suggest adding some bonuses, and/or making the territory right in front of the starting positions have an autodeploy. Either way will make taking over the next region give you more troops than you need to hold it, thus giving you a profit.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby Qwert on Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:02 pm

by The Neon Peon on Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:30 pm

Once you take out all the territories a player has, you are yourself not doing so well.

A person has a minimum of 3 deploy, so to keep them inside that one last territory, you would need 4 men (because of dice, attacker's advantage). 4 men out of your army will only leave you with 1 or 2 left for other parts of the game.

I suggest adding some bonuses, and/or making the territory right in front of the starting positions have an autodeploy. Either way will make taking over the next region give you more troops than you need to hold it, thus giving you a profit.

if you notice,that distace bettwen starting position is min 5 territory. I ony can give max 2 autodeploy to starting position,because i realy dont like maps who give to much bonuses.
Now its quit hard for anybody to have any big advantage over other players,but if some player alove to other player expeel hem from all map,then these will be fault from these player not fault from map,because now map not give anybody any advantage.
If you have min 5 neutral territory,these give you +15 neutrals, wery hard to eliminate in short range.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby The Neon Peon on Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:13 pm

Wait, I thought you can't eliminate players?
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby Qwert on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:10 am

by The Neon Peon on Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:13 am

Wait, I thought you can't eliminate players?

You can not eliminate players from map,that why i dont understand why you need to big bonuses.
First of all everybody is in long distance to each other,and objectives is in middle of map,
If you play with 5-6-7-8 players,everybody begun with equal advantage,no need for any new bonuses,expecialy for some bonuses who will give advantage to player who starting first.
Ofcourse some autodeply in starting territory is OK,but not to much biger.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC- NEW UPDATE ! page 1-4 5dec

Postby sam_levi_11 on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:23 pm

I like the nice hectic map, and it has really great graphics(i wouldnt expect less from you! :lol: )
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby Qwert on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:50 pm

Thanks sam levi.

well its time for new refreshing update,also i add map description in page 1 post 1(if something not clear please post)

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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby ZeakCytho on Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:04 pm

If starting positions can't be attacked, won't this map have the same problem Das Schloß does?
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby Qwert on Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:20 pm

I dont think so, because you dont get big bonuses,like you get in dass scloss.
But we can not know before first game on map,right. We can not know precisely how will these work,because we dont have testing area for that.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby ZeakCytho on Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:29 pm

qwert wrote:I dont think so, because you dont get big bonuses,like you get in dass scloss.
But we can not know before first game on map,right. We can not know precisely how will these work,because we dont have testing area for that.


I think the lack of big bonuses helps alleviate the situation, but to win you still need to hold 8 territories, which is no easy feat unless it's a foggy game. Also, in escalating games, card values could get really big pretty fast. I don't see how 8 player games can end.

I just had a thought, which you may or may not like. What if the objective were to hold a majority (5/8) of the shields instead of all 8? That's more feasible.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby Qwert on Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:38 pm

I think the lack of big bonuses helps alleviate the situation, but to win you still need to hold 8 territories, which is no easy feat unless it's a foggy game. Also, in escalating games, card values could get really big pretty fast. I don't see how 8 player games can end.

I just had a thought, which you may or may not like. What if the objective were to hold a majority (5/8) of the shields instead of all 8? That's more feasible.

Hmm,these will be bad in games with small number of players,1vs1,or 3 player games,not to counting doubles,or triples.
Lets stay with present situation,i realy can not guess how these working online.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby The Neon Peon on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:21 pm

qwert wrote:I dont think so, because you dont get big bonuses,like you get in dass scloss.
But we can not know before first game on map,right. We can not know precisely how will these work,because we dont have testing area for that.

I have the opposite opinion.

You need to hold 8 territories, all in a different part of the map. But, to go to each part of the map, you run into another player.

That player will keep attacking you because you can't eliminate them, so you need to put a deploy as large as the player's right next to them, so that you can focus the rest of your troops elsewhere.

This means that for it to not be impossible to take control of the bonuses, you need 3 troops minimum per person so that you stop the players down to 1 territory from taking them back.

So, that means you have to get 4 men (3 for keeping the player inside, and the next for some profit) from each area around each player. At first I thought you would not be getting enough men, but when I look at it, that is just 6 territories and a Hoplites.

So it is possible to keep someone inside the starting point, but is it worth it? You take over the next player, and then gain nothing much. You might have 1 or two extra troops, but you are too weak for invasions yourself. The troops you deploy there are being depleted by the person attacking you, so when a second person comes in, they release the 1st person, and you start all over.

The main point being... with such small bonuses, or small amounts of bonuses... you are capable of taking over a region, yes, but you don't get enough troops from it to hold it once you encounter a third player.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby Qwert on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:43 pm

Its depend what you hold.
maximal bonuses is 13 for hoplites-and 26 for territory(if you hold all)
8 players can have reinforcment per turn 40 army(if i remove autodeply +2 per turn) 24 army.
I think is very possible to blocking one by one player out of game,but its depend how you play,and how other players play,you must count luck with dices.Expecialy with cards you have much biger chance to block players,because if you block players to take cards,then he dont have chance to come back in game. I think that these is possible, expecialy in 1v1 games. 8 players games,these i can not say how will work,these is only teoreticaly,in realy who knows.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby The Neon Peon on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:53 pm

Alright, lets save the gameplay for later, then.

What font/language did you use for the sea names?
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby Qwert on Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:20 pm

Greek language,i hope that these is correct?
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby The Neon Peon on Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:04 pm

qwert wrote:Greek language,i hope that these is correct?

Can't say on that, why I was asking. I only speak Russian, a small bit of French and English.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby MrBenn on Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:12 am

The Neon Peon wrote:Alright, lets save the gameplay for later, then.

Actually, I think there is some good discussion about the gameplay going on, and I want to make sure that this map will work, and have most of the gameplay worked out to avoid another 'Das Schloss'. It's in the best interest of everybody concerned ;-)
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby Qwert on Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:41 am

Can't say on that, why I was asking. I only speak Russian, a small bit of French and English.
:lol:

mrbeen
Actually, I think there is some good discussion about the gameplay going on, and I want to make sure that this map will work, and have most of the gameplay worked out to avoid another 'Das Schloss'. It's in the best interest of everybody concerned

Well its quit dificulty to say abouth these gameplay option,these is only teoretical, if we take only Dass scloss for example,then nobody can create map with starting possition who can not attack. ;)
I want to try with these concept,who have small number of bonuses, and to see how these work,if its not good,then i belive i can easy fix,removing one way attack ,and add these change in xml,not causing any problems for players in beta stage.
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Re: PELOPONNESIAN WAR 431 BC-UPDATE!map description p1-5 8dec

Postby Incandenza on Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:28 pm

The problem with the whole "let's see how it works in beta" is that it can take a long time for systemic problems to arise. Recall that das Schloss wasn't removed from play because of stalemate possibilities, it was because of the horribly unbalanced bonuses.

Here's the thing: I'm of the opinion that escalating will be impossible on any map that doesn't allow for killshots. The idea somehow that in a 6-8p escalating game, the eventual winner will be able to leave enough armies to block every other player from getting a card is kinda insane.

On an unrelated note, I've been thinking about your hoplite bonuses, and I have an idea: what if there were two different types of hoplite? Say one is a bronze helmet with a +2 autodeploy, and every starting position has one within 1-2 terits. Then there can be, say, silver helmets that give a plain ole' +2 bonus, but they're positioned so that they're equidistant from starting points, thus giving players something to fight over in the early going.
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