TRAFALGAR [12.4.2012] QUENCHED (V65)

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V15

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:38 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:I like how you've mixed the ships around, now the bonuses are harder to get and hold, but...

Spanish connects to British in one location. And does not comment to French.

British Connects to French in 4 locations. 2 of them being at the top of the map near the Commanders. Seeing as the commanders start neutral, and you would have to go through 10 to connect, the only way to get from British to French is in the bottom of the map.

Fix these two, and we can get back to the discussion depending on where you choose to connect them.

Otherwise, the only Spanish-British connection has an orange line, not a yellow one.

The commanders should be a different type of ship, not an enlarged regular one. This makes them easier to identify, where right now you might not notice at a quick glance.


Further research done.....
1.the survivors from the Bucantaure were picked up by the Indomptable, so i have swapped Indomptable and Neptune on the map and connected these two vessels.
2. link created between Dreadnought and San Juan de Nepocumeno bothways.
3. links created between french swiftsure and colossus and spanaish bahamas....both swiftsure and bahamas surrended to the birtish.
4. French Intrpid and spanish Rayo now connect.
5. Neptune takes San Feacisco de Asis
6. The commanders vessels have a large rear sail - please refer the legend.

Hope this helps.

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V15(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:10 pm

how do you tell which way the one way border goes
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V15(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:13 pm

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:how do you tell which way the one way border goes
:shock:
British = red
French = blue
Spanish = yellow
If there is a red line from a red ship to a blue ship then the british can one-way attack the french ship.
Isn't this clear in the legend?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V15(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby ZeakCytho on Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:18 pm

cairnswk wrote:
LED ZEPPELINER wrote:how do you tell which way the one way border goes
:shock:
British = red
French = blue
Spanish = yellow
If there is a red line from a red ship to a blue ship then the british can one-way attack the french ship.
Isn't this clear in the legend?


Hmm...you never say which color is which fleet, come to think of it...
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V15(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby Gypsys Kiss on Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:22 pm

cairnswk wrote:
LED ZEPPELINER wrote:how do you tell which way the one way border goes
:shock:
British = red
French = blue
Spanish = yellow
If there is a red line from a red ship to a blue ship then the british can one-way attack the french ship.
Isn't this clear in the legend?


I must admit I thought that was one of the easier bits, but maybe I'm just getting used to your maps. :D
One thing though, is a line between two ships of the same nationality one-way or two-way.(Sorry if I've missed this elsewhere)




I am going to like this one.

Edit* as soon as i pressed the submit button I realised I was a dickhead, and it is a two-way border :oops:
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V16

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:15 am

Gypsys Kiss wrote:....but maybe I'm just getting used to your maps. :D
...


Yay!, well done. :)

Here is V16 with those adjustments.

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V16(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby mibi on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:08 pm

Ok Cairns, let me throw some crit your way. I will spare you the thesaurus and snarky attitude :) btw, I don't use thesauruses.

Now I know you have your own style and some of your maps are very complex. Waterloo is hailed as a masterpiece of strategy and complexity. I gave it few go's, not my thing, but I can see the appeal. Almost 200 active games going on that one. Some of your other maps seemed to lack any real raison d'être. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but there should always be the goal of making the best map possible, not every map possible. Being the most prolific map maker on this site Cairns, there is bound to be hits and misses. It should stand to reason though, that with that much experience, you should know what works and what doesn't. Not that active games is the only indication of what works, but it's a factor, as are other qualitations such as fun, enjoyment, replay, etc.

So, here we are with the Battle of Trafalgar. The subject matter is weak. Its a battle no one has heard of in a war no one can name. Further that, for those who know of the battle and may have a historical interest in playing, the battle itself was a proverbial blowout. 22 to 0 if you taking a tally of ships. Is that fun? To get a drop with mostly French, the big losers. Of course you can even the playing field with bonuses and connections and handicaps, but after all that is done, you have evened out what SHOULD be lopsided. It really doesn't make sense. Like if you made a map of the US Army vs New Zealand, and to make it even you had to give NZ all kinds of bonuses and such. So I think the subject is a poor choice.

The graphics, while certainly well done, suffer from some serious type blunders. You have all this text over a patterned or image background. Like the bonus legend, and that red text over the flags in the title area. Basically both of these are competing for the eye and since there is no stroke or highlight around the text, visibility and legibility suffer. It's an easy fix though. Throw a glow in there, or a stroke at 50%, or lighten the BG. Secondly, the map looks like a mess, a giant knot. Or one of those things in Highlights magazine where you have to following the curled and tangled line to help a bear get some honey. At some point, this map loses it's naval combat vibe and takes on one of confusion and disorganization. The one ways, two ways, bombardments and everything else that is explained in the legend is a mistake. While it may hold historical accuracy that Prince and Achille boarded each other or that Scipion bombarded Neptuno and not vice versa, all of this really doesn't matter to someone who isn't intimate with the subject matter. All you have done is create a series of rules that must be followed for no other reason than they exist. That is not fun.

I think the bottom line is, that you have adapted the game to the subject, when you should have adapted the subject to the game. I think there is a good demand for some raucous naval combat. But thats not what this is. This is not naval combat. Nothing about the gameplay or rules is really forcing a naval combat mindset. You could take out the boats, put it spaceships, or tanks, and have the same thing. Take supermax for example, its a prison subject adapted to the game, there are no specifics to one particular prison or rules about where a particular actor is 'supposed' to go. It is open ended with a few rules that are specific to any prison. This map here is a closed loop. Swiftsure can never attack Pluton even though they may have them dead in their sights. This map will never play out as it is historically suppose to, and why should it? Who wants to get a flawless ass whooping. Another example is Battle for Iraq, like this map, it is about a particular situation and location. But it's open ended; players can choose their own destiny, the rules are just their to nudge the gameplay, not force it. The shia hate the suni, but there is no attack route only between them, they can do what they like.

There is probably more I could say, but I am a bit tired. You have great skills cairns and relentless ambition. It's just unfortunate that there hasn't been notable progression in your ability to turn out a truly successful map.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V16(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:19 pm

mibi wrote:Ok Cairns, let me throw some crit your way. I will spare you the thesaurus and snarky attitude :) btw, I don't use thesauruses.

Now I know you have your own style and some of your maps are very complex. Waterloo is hailed as a masterpiece of strategy and complexity. I gave it few go's, not my thing, but I can see the appeal. Almost 200 active games going on that one. Some of your other maps seemed to lack any real raison d'être. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but there should always be the goal of making the best map possible, not every map possible. Being the most prolific map maker on this site Cairns, there is bound to be hits and misses. It should stand to reason though, that with that much experience, you should know what works and what doesn't. Not that active games is the only indication of what works, but it's a factor, as are other qualitations such as fun, enjoyment, replay, etc.

So, here we are with the Battle of Trafalgar. The subject matter is weak. Its a battle no one has heard of in a war no one can name. Further that, for those who know of the battle and may have a historical interest in playing, the battle itself was a proverbial blowout. 22 to 0 if you taking a tally of ships. Is that fun? To get a drop with mostly French, the big losers. Of course you can even the playing field with bonuses and connections and handicaps, but after all that is done, you have evened out what SHOULD be lopsided. It really doesn't make sense. Like if you made a map of the US Army vs New Zealand, and to make it even you had to give NZ all kinds of bonuses and such. So I think the subject is a poor choice.

The graphics, while certainly well done, suffer from some serious type blunders. You have all this text over a patterned or image background. Like the bonus legend, and that red text over the flags in the title area. Basically both of these are competing for the eye and since there is no stroke or highlight around the text, visibility and legibility suffer. It's an easy fix though. Throw a glow in there, or a stroke at 50%, or lighten the BG. Secondly, the map looks like a mess, a giant knot. Or one of those things in Highlights magazine where you have to following the curled and tangled line to help a bear get some honey. At some point, this map loses it's naval combat vibe and takes on one of confusion and disorganization. The one ways, two ways, bombardments and everything else that is explained in the legend is a mistake. While it may hold historical accuracy that Prince and Achille boarded each other or that Scipion bombarded Neptuno and not vice versa, all of this really doesn't matter to someone who isn't intimate with the subject matter. All you have done is create a series of rules that must be followed for no other reason than they exist. That is not fun.

I think the bottom line is, that you have adapted the game to the subject, when you should have adapted the subject to the game. I think there is a good demand for some raucous naval combat. But thats not what this is. This is not naval combat. Nothing about the gameplay or rules is really forcing a naval combat mindset. You could take out the boats, put it spaceships, or tanks, and have the same thing. Take supermax for example, its a prison subject adapted to the game, there are no specifics to one particular prison or rules about where a particular actor is 'supposed' to go. It is open ended with a few rules that are specific to any prison. This map here is a closed loop. Swiftsure can never attack Pluton even though they may have them dead in their sights. This map will never play out as it is historically suppose to, and why should it? Who wants to get a flawless ass whooping. Another example is Battle for Iraq, like this map, it is about a particular situation and location. But it's open ended; players can choose their own destiny, the rules are just their to nudge the gameplay, not force it. The shia hate the suni, but there is no attack route only between them, they can do what they like.

There is probably more I could say, but I am a bit tired. You have great skills cairns and relentless ambition. It's just unfortunate that there hasn't been notable progression in your ability to turn out a truly successful map.


Now mibi, that's the sort of critic i really appreciate and understand....no snarky bits...and i'll not bite your head off for any of it, as i have been thinking the same some of the same things about the gameplay/legend. Much appreciated. if only you could write like that all the time... ;)
Oh, and i'ts not my desire to have the most maps, either, that isn 't a standard for me. However, having lots of time does allow one to get a few maps going, so onward and upward....while i have the time, coz very shortly it may just run out....to uni.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V16(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby The Neon Peon on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:37 pm

I disagree with mibi here.

The fact that people have not heard of it, makes a better map because people may learn a thing or two by looking up what type of stuff they are actually playing on. The whole concept of a sea battle is a very good one, especially since someone has now managed to carry it out to make it semi-realistic (all the bombardments, one-way borders, etc.)

You say that the map is inaccurate. Well, if no one has heard of the battle, then 99% of the people will be happy, and those who have heard of it, can feel free to gloat about why it is wrong. Either way, I don't think it is a goal to make everything completely realistic. Here are some solutions for the inaccuracy:
1. Forget about it, seeing as most people won't notice, and we can't make it even close to what the battle was actually like because the ships moved throughout the battle, and when one get's sunk... no territory there anymore.
2. Try to make the map as accurate as possible, then settle for it as the best shot, so no point in complaining about the things which are not like they were in real life.
3. Rename the map, rename the ships part of it, and rename the countries in the battle. Same good map, but without 90% of your critics.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V17

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:22 pm

Version 17.

In partial answer to mibi's critic, below is a version without the attack lines that might appease the forum.
See what you think.

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V17(P8) - Attack lines removed

Postby The Neon Peon on Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:28 pm

Now that is confusing...

How about we make it work like Prison Riot? Use the dotted lines to make areas on the map. All ships within one area attack each other and the ships in neighboring areas.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V17(P8) - Attack lines removed

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:49 pm

i just wish a certain someone would move this to the main foundry....it's confusing what the criteria is these days for the length of stay in the Drafting Room. :?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V17(P8) - Attack lines removed

Postby Incandenza on Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:25 am

While the attack lines were a bit cluttered, not having them creates quite a few problems, not least of which is perhaps the most tortured sentence I've yet read in a legend, that whole "ships not locked in action" bit... might be because I'm tired, but I couldn't wrap my brain around it.

And I'd like to make two small rebuttals to mibi's comments: everyone that's gone through high school history has heard of the various conflicts that fall under the general heading of the Napoleonic Wars, and Trafalgar is one of the top two or three most significant naval engagements in world history, so to say that this is a "battle no one has heard of in a war no one can name" is, not to put too fine a point on it, preposterous. And just because Napoleon got his ass whupped at Waterloo, doesn't make the map any less fun to play.

Oh, and consider this a vote for movement to the main foundry.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V17(P8) - Attack lines removed

Postby hoschke118 on Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:46 am

^agreed. I'm still in high school and I knew what the battle of trafalgar was, and i don't do history. I didn't know too many details, but still...

Anyway, back on topic. This map looks great and i can't wait to play it, well done!
It looks a LOT better without attack lines and I hope you can keep it that way but at the moment I don't get it. What does "from the same combatant side" mean?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V17(P8) - Attack lines removed

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:40 am

hoschke118 wrote:^agreed. I'm still in high school and I knew what the battle of trafalgar was, and i don't do history. I didn't know too many details, but still...
Anyway, back on topic. This map looks great and i can't wait to play it, well done!
It looks a LOT better without attack lines and I hope you can keep it that way but at the moment I don't get it. What does "from the same combatant side" mean?


welcome hoschke118, and thanks for your comment.
On the legend, there are three ships marked the The Combatants - British, French, Spanish.
com·bat·ant - n. One, such as a person or a combat vehicle, that takes part in armed strife.

From the same combatant side simply means they are either french, british, or spanish. I guess an old form of saying that from the period. Hehehe! :)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V18 better legend

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:30 am

Incandenza wrote:While the attack lines were a bit cluttered, not having them creates quite a few problems, not least of which is perhaps the most tortured sentence I've yet read in a legend, that whole "ships not locked in action" bit... might be because I'm tired, but I couldn't wrap my brain around it.

Mmmm...now that you've pointed that out, of course they're all locked in action aren't they. How stupid of me. Oh well, one for the signatures if anyone wants it.

OK...Version 18, this should make a lot better sense now....

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V17(P8) - Attack lines removed

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:22 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:Now that is confusing...

How about we make it work like Prison Riot? Use the dotted lines to make areas on the map. All ships within one area attack each other and the ships in neighboring areas.


Are you serious? :shock: or are you saying that just so mibi will understand it?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V18(P9) - Better legend

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:08 pm

Are the new boarding vessels instructions better?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V18(P9) - Better legend

Postby Incandenza on Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:31 pm

cairnswk wrote:Are the new boarding vessels instructions better?


They're better, but there's still some room for misinterpretation (i.e. can neptune and leviathan attack each other? what about royal sovereign and mars, or RS and polyphemous?), plus with the dramatically lower connectivity between fleets, I think gameplay may have taken a hit. For instance, the only way to get from the northwest to the northeast is through Victory, and the northwest can be sealed off quite easily...
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V18(P9) - Better legend

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:26 pm

Incandenza wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Are the new boarding vessels instructions better?


They're better, but there's still some room for misinterpretation (i.e. can neptune and leviathan attack each other?

yes...leviathan is what i would consider south of Neptune, therefore any direction applies and there are no ships blocking that route.

what about royal sovereign and mars,

perhaps i would need to move Fougueux a little south there for that to be achievable.

or RS and polyphemous?),

I assume you mean Royal Sovereign by RS....yes Poly is die west of RS and there are no ships blocking that route.

plus with the dramatically lower connectivity between fleets, I think gameplay may have taken a hit. For instance, the only way to get from the northwest to the northeast is through Victory, and the northwest can be sealed off quite easily...

OK, i see what you mean...we can work on that.
Are there any others you can pick out that need attention? :)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V18(P9) - Better legend

Postby Incandenza on Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:31 pm

Well, I could nitpick, but there's one big concern: what about the french and spanish? Currently there's no way to get from a french boat to a spanish one without going via a british one.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V17(P8) - Attack lines removed

Postby The Neon Peon on Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:35 pm

cairnswk wrote:
The Neon Peon wrote:Now that is confusing...

How about we make it work like Prison Riot? Use the dotted lines to make areas on the map. All ships within one area attack each other and the ships in neighboring areas.


Are you serious? :shock: or are you saying that just so mibi will understand it?

Serious. Why do you ask?

Personally, I liked the lines, this would be my next option.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V17(P8) - Attack lines removed

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:39 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:...
Serious. Why do you ask?

Personally, I liked the lines, this would be my next option.

OK...i get that one.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V18(P9) - Better legend

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:40 pm

Incandenza wrote:Well, I could nitpick, but there's one big concern: what about the french and spanish? Currently there's no way to get from a french boat to a spanish one without going via a british one.

OK....how many would you like...2, 3, 4?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V18(P9) - Better legend

Postby rjz115dude on Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:51 am

i like the map except i think it might look better with less boats. It's worth trying
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