TRAFALGAR [12.4.2012] QUENCHED (V65)

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V6(P3) - Easier Layout??

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:03 pm

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:i would suggest an easier layout, maybe not so many lines

Yes, i can work on that. :)

The Neon Peon wrote:Lines should connect from a uniform point on each ship, such as the center, not be different everywhere.

Some of the bombardment is still unclear because the cannon points between two ships.

Your legend still says attacks and bombards.

Why do you have two attack/bombard lines between two ships? only one is necessary.


1. OK
2. cannon pointing needs to be cleaned up
3. well, there will be a differentation
4. as a method of indicating two-way attacks. When men boarded from a ship, they usually boarded via ropes that swung from their own ship or gang planks, so i thought it would be a great idea to have two lines, and if there was only one yellow line to a red ship, then it would be a one-way attack indicator.
i thought it would be better than having one-way arrows.

Telvannia wrote:I'm really glad someone is tackling this idea at last, one of the thing i have always thought had the potential to be a great map! And judging by your past record of complex war maps i can think of no-one better than you to do it.

And i'm glad someone esle has found the thread, thanks Telvania :)

Keeping with the small and insignificant if you have space you could put Nelson's famous signal behind the legend.
[q/uote]
Jolly splendid idea, thanks for that. :)

Just another trifling matter, at the top you have the faces of Nelson and Napoleon (I think it is them it is hard to tell at that size), surely you could have the faces of Napoleon and George III or Nelson and his French/Spainish counterpart.

Those are the faces of Nelson and French commander Pierre-Charles Villeneuve...i have yet to put the spanish commander in.

Also without knowing what you are doing for bonuses, here is what i think would make a good set:
  • British Weather Column
  • British Lee Column
  • HMS Africa
  • French Ships
  • Spanish Ships
You would have to work out the actual numerical value for each of the bonuses, as im terrible at gameplay mechanics ;)

HMS Africa (frigates) was part of the Weather column, but i'll consider this...good work. :)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V6(P3) - Easier Layout??

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:57 am

The Neon Peon wrote:
Also without knowing what you are doing for bonuses, here is what i think would make a good set:
  • British Weather Column
  • British Lee Column
  • HMS Africa
  • French Ships
  • Spanish Ships
You would have to work out the actual numerical value for each of the bonuses, as im terrible at gameplay mechanics ;)

HMS Africa (frigates) was part of the Weather column, but i'll consider this...good work. :)


OK, in the middle of finishing design for legend, and perhaps this would be difficult to implement to indicate which is the weather column etc for the british. i'd have to have another colour for the british. i don't think there is room for a mini-map, so not sure how to accomplish this. :(
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V7

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:05 pm

Version 7.

1. Not done - still haven't finished the full compliment of french ships and all the ship names.
2. re-worked the legend areas with provision for Bonuses
3. Simple differentiation between British Weather and Lee Columns ......................................... look for on the legend and map
4. inclusion as suggested of the famous flag message

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V7(P5) - New legend

Postby The Neon Peon on Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:53 pm

I think bonuses should be of the type of "x troops for every y (country)'s ships held. Or that same thing except only if you hold the commander for that country (which starts neutral).

Otherwise, the bonus is impossible to obtain.

Great map, and great work on the legend... really good idea. I love the bottom right, but I think that the left part of the legend is too hard to see. Some of the details are made really clear, and they drown out the others to being hardly visible.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V7(P5) - New legend

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:46 pm

what i think might be a cool idea is if you were to make it so some boats can only reainforce each other (not attack) and others can attack another but not reinforce it, just throwing that ou thiere, maybe with like ally boats and enemy boats
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V7(P5) - New legend

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:01 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:I think bonuses should be of the type of "x troops for every y (country)'s ships held. Or that same thing except only if you hold the commander for that country (which starts neutral).

Otherwise, the bonus is impossible to obtain.


OK, let me reason this....i can see where you saying the bonuses might be hard to obtain.
But if we split the three armies into two group above and below that dotted weather/lee indiactor line, it would give two more region bonuses that were easier to obtain.

Great map, and great work on the legend... really good idea. I love the bottom right, but I think that the left part of the legend is too hard to see. Some of the details are made really clear, and they drown out the others to being hardly visible.


Not sure exactly what you mean here.....about the left part of the legend & the drowning out business.

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:what i think might be a cool idea is if you were to make it so some boats can only reainforce each other (not attack) and others can attack another but not reinforce it, just throwing that ou thiere, maybe with like ally boats and enemy boats


And sorry for this, but totally don't understand this one. Please expand. :?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V8

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:03 pm

Version 8

1. I've moved some terts around to be able to achieve continent style bonuses.
Not all cannon are in place yet, but the main players are.

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V8(P5) - Adjusted layout

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:02 pm

Let's see.....

Bonuses might be:

British A 13 6 5 2 +7
French A 8 7 5 3 +7
Spanish A 6 2 3 2 +3
British B 14 8 6 3 +9
French B 8 6 7 3 +6
Spanish B 9 5 6 3 +6

What do others think?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V8(P5) - Adjusted layout

Postby Incandenza on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:14 pm

cairnswk wrote:Let's see.....

Bonuses might be:

British A 13 6 5 2 +7
French A 8 7 5 3 +7
Spanish A 6 2 3 2 +3
British B 14 8 6 3 +9
French B 8 6 7 3 +6
Spanish B 9 5 6 3 +6

What do others think?


Them's some big bonuses.... I agree with Peon, I think some Berlin-style "build your own bonus" action might work nicely for this map. That way the bonuses can be smaller and a bit easier to obtain (and hold).
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V8(P5) - Adjusted layout

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:41 pm

Incandenza wrote:
Them's some big bonuses.... I agree with Peon, I think some Berlin-style "build your own bonus" action might work nicely for this map. That way the bonuses can be smaller and a bit easier to obtain (and hold).


OK, but what do you suggest...we override the normal +1 for 3 and make it +1 for 2 or 4...or whatever?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V9

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:31 am

Version 9

Some suggested bonuses

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Last edited by cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V8(P5) - Adjusted layout

Postby TaCktiX on Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:55 am

I'm having a hard time getting behind this map. It just doesn't have that "catch" to it present in a lot of your other maps.

- The cannon-pointing mechanism is clunky and hard to pin down right off what's attacking what. Dotted lines would do a lot of help for this.
- Whilst Santissima Trinidad and Victory are nice and emboldened, Bucentaure is not.
- A lot of the text seems to waver between bold and faded, and it's very offputting. Uniformity in name-look would help a lot.
- Instead of "Plus for any commander +1", "Any commander gives +1" is much better verbiage.
- What is the "thing" on the left side of the map? I can't tell if it's the front of a ship, the side, or what-not, it just doesn't look "right", particularly toward the top.
- If possible, adjust the verse underneath the title to note its rhyme more. "Great losses of ships and life were suffered this day / To dear old Napoleon away"
- What do the naval symbols mean in the title? They have zero significance to me, and if they're merely an echo of the verse above, I'd suggest moving the verse down a bit and the symbols up and have the verse overlaying the symbols.
- Adding "Any" to the bonuses would help a lot toward understanding. For the first 5 minutes of looking at this map, I thought that there were only 5 French in the Weather Line and only 8 British in the Lee Line until I actually counted them. The bonus numbers themselves are pretty good.
- Instead of using "A" and "B", why not "W" and "L"? It'd match the line names more.
- Since there is no functional difference between a frigate and a ship of the line (other than attacks that are already noted on the map itself), noting which is which is rather pointless. And what is up with the bottom left corner? They don't make sense.

I'd have to say this has been rather scathing of me. But when I say that maps get
Image,
the results aren't always pretty.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V10

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:46 am

TaCktiX wrote:I'm having a hard time getting behind this map. It just doesn't have that "catch" to it present in a lot of your other maps.

- The cannon-pointing mechanism is clunky and hard to pin down right off what's attacking what. Dotted lines would do a lot of help for this.
- Whilst Santissima Trinidad and Victory are nice and emboldened, Bucentaure is not.
- A lot of the text seems to waver between bold and faded, and it's very offputting. Uniformity in name-look would help a lot.
- Instead of "Plus for any commander +1", "Any commander gives +1" is much better verbiage.
- What is the "thing" on the left side of the map? I can't tell if it's the front of a ship, the side, or what-not, it just doesn't look "right", particularly toward the top.
- If possible, adjust the verse underneath the title to note its rhyme more. "Great losses of ships and life were suffered this day / To dear old Napoleon away"
- What do the naval symbols mean in the title? They have zero significance to me, and if they're merely an echo of the verse above, I'd suggest moving the verse down a bit and the symbols up and have the verse overlaying the symbols.
- Adding "Any" to the bonuses would help a lot toward understanding. For the first 5 minutes of looking at this map, I thought that there were only 5 French in the Weather Line and only 8 British in the Lee Line until I actually counted them. The bonus numbers themselves are pretty good.
- Instead of using "A" and "B", why not "W" and "L"? It'd match the line names more.
- Since there is no functional difference between a frigate and a ship of the line (other than attacks that are already noted on the map itself), noting which is which is rather pointless. And what is up with the bottom left corner? They don't make sense.

I'd have to say this has been rather scathing of me. But when I say that maps get
Image,
the results aren't always pretty.


OK, i think i got most of your suggestions above in Version 10 below, i don't think adding dotted lines to the cannon will help but it might cause more confusion and certainly the map doesn't need any more lines; but i will work further on that so that it is clearer.

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V8(P5) - Adjusted layout

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:47 am

Oh and clearly the left legend is not finished yet....more artwork to be done there.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V7(P5) - New legend

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:38 am

cairnswk wrote:
LED ZEPPELINER wrote:what i think might be a cool idea is if you were to make it so some boats can only reainforce each other (not attack) and others can attack another but not reinforce it, just throwing that ou thiere, maybe with like ally boats and enemy boats


And sorry for this, but totally don't understand this one. Please expand. :?

what i mean is if you were in a real naval battle, you wouldn't be attacking ships from your own fleet, so some connecting ships, maybe could just be able to reinforce one another, but not attack one another, i hope it makes sense
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V7(P5) - New legend

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:38 am

cairnswk wrote:
LED ZEPPELINER wrote:what i think might be a cool idea is if you were to make it so some boats can only reainforce each other (not attack) and others can attack another but not reinforce it, just throwing that ou thiere, maybe with like ally boats and enemy boats


And sorry for this, but totally don't understand this one. Please expand. :?

what i mean is if you were in a real naval battle, you wouldn't be attacking ships from your own fleet, so some connecting ships, maybe could just be able to reinforce one another, but not attack one another, i hope it makes sense
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V7(P5) - New legend

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:41 am

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
LED ZEPPELINER wrote:what i think might be a cool idea is if you were to make it so some boats can only reainforce each other (not attack) and others can attack another but not reinforce it, just throwing that ou thiere, maybe with like ally boats and enemy boats


And sorry for this, but totally don't understand this one. Please expand. :?

what i mean is if you were in a real naval battle, you wouldn't be attacking ships from your own fleet, so some connecting ships, maybe could just be able to reinforce one another, but not attack one another, i hope it makes sense


Ah OK, i see now....i had this issue with Pearl Harbour also.
Unfortunately you cannot replicate a real life battle with the drop from this game, so you have to be able to conquer your own fleet, if it is held by someone else. reinforcement are thus enabled.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V10

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:43 am

Current version 10.

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V10(P5) - Adjusted layout

Postby The Neon Peon on Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:38 pm

Looks really nice. Good updates.

What I was saying about the left legend is that you should not outline some of the parts of the ship, like you have currently done to the lanterns and some of the ropes on the legend ship.

Thanks for doing the bonus suggestion. I like the amounts you chose. Was thinking that some like the French should be worth more, but when I actually thought about it, I came back to your choices.

The Spanish "W" is not capitalized in the legend.

The text should read: "Any commander +1" I am not sure why you added "Plus" at the start.

Who does Monarco belong to?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V11

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:36 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:Looks really nice. Good updates.

What I was saying about the left legend is that you should not outline some of the parts of the ship, like you have currently done to the lanterns and some of the ropes on the legend ship.

Thanks for doing the bonus suggestion. I like the amounts you chose. Was thinking that some like the French should be worth more, but when I actually thought about it, I came back to your choices.

The Spanish "W" is not capitalized in the legend.

The text should read: "Any commander +1" I am not sure why you added "Plus" at the start.

Who does Monarco belong to?


Monarco -> Monarca belongs to the Spanish.
1. The left legend will be tidied
2. I think i have eliminated the bottlenecks - don't like them after Das Schloss fiasco
3. re-arrranged the bonus legend
4. Cannon are starting to get sorted.

Version 11
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V11(P6) - Gameplay

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:35 pm

I love the 'build-your-own' bonuses - I think that is exactly the way that battles would work on the ground - a combination of strategic territories, and strength in depth ;-)

I wonder if there is something that can be done to emphasise the difference between Broadside attacks and Raking attacks? Part of me wonders whether some of the ships could be turned, and add in more one-way attacks?

As a minor aside, I noticed that you only have 31 French/Spanish vessels, when there were 33 in total?

(I've just watched this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/launch_ani_trafalgar.shtml)
During the engagement at Trafalgar, on 21 October 1805, the Royal Navy annihilated the greatest threat to British security for 200 years, but lost Britain's national hero in the process. Little wonder the battle transcended the mundane calculation of ships and men, victory and defeat. It guaranteed Britain's control of the oceans, the basis of her global power for over a century.


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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V11(P6) - Gameplay

Postby The Neon Peon on Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:43 pm

I think that the cannons are perfectly fine now. They are all clear as to where they are pointing.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V11(P6) - Gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:04 pm

MrBenn wrote:I love the 'build-your-own' bonuses - I think that is exactly the way that battles would work on the ground - a combination of strategic territories, and strength in depth ;-)

I wonder if there is something that can be done to emphasise the difference between Broadside attacks and Raking attacks? Part of me wonders whether some of the ships could be turned, and add in more one-way attacks?

As a minor aside, I noticed that you only have 31 French/Spanish vessels, when there were 33 in total?

(I've just watched this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/launch_ani_trafalgar.shtml)
During the engagement at Trafalgar, on 21 October 1805, the Royal Navy annihilated the greatest threat to British security for 200 years, but lost Britain's national hero in the process. Little wonder the battle transcended the mundane calculation of ships and men, victory and defeat. It guaranteed Britain's control of the oceans, the basis of her global power for over a century.


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Thanks for Stamp Mr Benn.
1. i'll have to investiage the broadside and raking attack thing, i am sure there might be something that can be done.
Can you explain further.
2. Yes there were 33, and i have deliberately left 2 out - the British Achille and the French Redoubtable, i was waiting to see if someone noticed. I left the Achille out because of there being two of each name, although now i think my argument was piss-poor because there are 2 Neptune. I'll fix it.


The Neon Peon wrote:I think that the cannons are perfectly fine now. They are all clear as to where they are pointing.

Thanks, someone may still think they need fixing though. ;)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V11(P6) - Gameplay

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:26 pm

cairnswk wrote:1. i'll have to investiage the broadside and raking attack thing, i am sure there might be something that can be done.
Can you explain further.
2. Yes there were 33, and i have deliberately left 2 out - the British Achille and the French Redoubtable

1. The cannons on the ships only fire from the sides... check out the animation on the page I linked to...
    Broadside attacks are when two ships are parrallel to each other, and firing upon each other.
    Raking attacks are when one ship has its side facing the bow/stern of the enemy, and can fire without return.

2. The Redoutable blocked Victory's way through the enemy line - how dare you leave it out :lol:
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PB: 2661 | He's blue... If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V12

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:35 pm

MrBenn wrote:
cairnswk wrote:1. i'll have to investiage the broadside and raking attack thing, i am sure there might be something that can be done.
Can you explain further.
2. Yes there were 33, and i have deliberately left 2 out - the British Achille and the French Redoubtable

1. The cannons on the ships only fire from the sides... check out the animation on the page I linked to...
    Broadside attacks are when two ships are parrallel to each other, and firing upon each other.
    Raking attacks are when one ship has its side facing the bow/stern of the enemy, and can fire without return.

2. The Redoutable blocked Victory's way through the enemy line - how dare you leave it out :lol:


I looked at your video....good stuff. :)
Yes i left the Redoubtable out. :oops:

Still it's back in....Version 12 below fixes some of the broadsides and there should be 33 vessels now.

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