TRAFALGAR [12.4.2012] QUENCHED (V65)

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V13(P6) - Gameplay/XML Preview

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:53 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Are there too many lines for instance?

I like this map a lot for its gameplay, so to me it is all good already.

I think you should limit the amount of 2 way border and bombard. I highly doubt that the bombard feature will be used a lot in that instance. How will this work with clickable maps?


Who's talking about clickable maps?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V13 XML Preview

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:54 pm

Version 13 with armies

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V13(P6) - Gameplay/XML Preview

Postby Telvannia on Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:59 am

If you are going to do this 'build your own bonus' bonus scheme it might be worth getting rid of the weather/lee for the French and the Spanish...
Also on the bonus front, it could be worth changing it so instead of gaining 1 army for the commanders instead they double the fleet bonuses above for their own fleet only. I think it would give the commanders a more tactically significant position on the map.
You also seem to have a lot of bombard and attack routes doubling up, which if i remember rightly from feudal wars does not work, an example of this is Victory and Bucentaure where they can both bombard and attack each other.
To slightly show the tactic of Nelson at Trafalgar a bit more you could cut down on the attack routes between French and Spanish ships where the British have cut the line, because the basic tactic of Nelson was to create a bottle necks in the French and Spanish line so if you removed the attack lines between: Neptune - Heros and between: Pluton - Themis for example
Slight nitpicking realism (so only do if it is a simple job which i fear it will not be, but i will put it out there) constant wind direction, the sails on the ships are not pointing largely in the direction. (Once again i wish to point out this is NOT important)
Back to HMS Africa, i always thought this ship was not part of the weather line, having been separated from the fleet it attacked in a completely different way, but i think giving it its own bonus might just cause confusion so it might not be worth the confusion just for a slight addition to realism




I would like to add that i love this map, and even without the above suggestions i think it could easily become my favourite map :D Keep going on this and it will end up an amazing map =D>
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V13(P6) - Gameplay/XML Preview

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:29 am

Telvannia wrote:....
I would like to add that i love this map, and even without the above suggestions i think it could easily become my favourite map :D Keep going on this and it will end up an amazing map =D>

Thanks Telvannia....i answer your suggestions shortly. :)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V13(P6) - Gameplay/XML Preview

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:36 pm

Telvannia wrote:If you are going to do this 'build your own bonus' bonus scheme it might be worth getting rid of the weather/lee for the French and the Spanish...
Also on the bonus front, it could be worth changing it so instead of gaining 1 army for the commanders instead they double the fleet bonuses above for their own fleet only. I think it would give the commanders a more tactically significant position on the map.
You also seem to have a lot of bombard and attack routes doubling up, which if i remember rightly from feudal wars does not work, an example of this is Victory and Bucentaure where they can both bombard and attack each other.
To slightly show the tactic of Nelson at Trafalgar a bit more you could cut down on the attack routes between French and Spanish ships where the British have cut the line, because the basic tactic of Nelson was to create a bottle necks in the French and Spanish line so if you removed the attack lines between: Neptune - Heros and between: Pluton - Themis for example
Slight nitpicking realism (so only do if it is a simple job which i fear it will not be, but i will put it out there) constant wind direction, the sails on the ships are not pointing largely in the direction. (Once again i wish to point out this is NOT important)
Back to HMS Africa, i always thought this ship was not part of the weather line, having been separated from the fleet it attacked in a completely different way, but i think giving it its own bonus might just cause confusion so it might not be worth the confusion just for a slight addition to realism
...

Telvannia....i'm going to have to re-arrange these deck chairs.
There are vessels in places that don't belong, and i 've just discovered that the Spanish flagship was not Santassima Trinidad but Principe de Asturias...so please bare with me....sorry.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V14

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:31 am

Version 14.

OK...i think this version was absolutely necessary to get more than half of the actions correct in this gameplay, therefore i had to re-arrange the ships completely and their gameplay links.
I discovered a site that gave me a list of the British ships, and moved these into gameplay position according to which vessel they broadsided or raked.
There is also a movement of the Spanish Commander to the Principe de Asturias at the bottom of the map, which for me is pleasing because previously i had three commanders at the top of the map.
The other thing is that the top half of the map is left much as it was before with proper continents. This could work in players favour as it might be easier to take the top fo the map before moving to the bottom where the majority of the bombardment occurs.

Here are the results:

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V14(P7) - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:18 am

V14 above changes to 61 terts....how is this number affected for a good start?
Refer below.
Last edited by cairnswk on Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V14(P7) - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:19 am

Thanks to Gimil...here is the drop for 61 terts.

No. of Territories 61 - 3 neutral starters

A. Number of players
B. Number of territories each player starts with
C. Number of neutral territories start
A. B. C.
2 19 23
3 19 4
4 14 5
5 11 6
6 9 7
7 8 5
8 7 5
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V14(P7) - Gameplay alteration

Postby Telvannia on Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:49 pm

Very nice update, i think it is defiantly better now. I still think the weather/lee line bonus is not necessary with the French and Spanish fleet. Also while on the bonuses i think that the commanders could play a bit of a bigger part in the tactics with them doubling the respective nations bonus.
By the way i think you have Neptune and Africa the wrong way round.


I will come back with more comments but i think that will do for now still think it is an amazing map, you have made me get on with something i have wanted to do for awhile, making a 3D model of Victory.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V14(P7) - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:55 pm

Telvannia wrote:Very nice update, i think it is defiantly better now.

Thanks Telvannia. :)

I still think the weather/lee line bonus is not necessary with the French and Spanish fleet.

But with out them, there would only be four continental type bonuses.

Also while on the bonuses i think that the commanders could play a bit of a bigger part in the tactics with them doubling the respective nations bonus.

I think i understand this....but would it not be too much and make the continents lop-sided....tow in the north and one in the south and the one on the south might be much hard to obtain.

By the way i think you have Neptune and Africa the wrong way round.

Well, according to some maps this is so, but the Neptune ended up beside Santissima Trinidad and i was going to put the Neptune in there for cannon purposes, but well... what do you think.

I will come back with more comments but i think that will do for now still think it is an amazing map, you have made me get on with something i have wanted to do for awhile, making a 3D model of Victory.

Very nice. hope you keep at it. :)
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V14(P7) - Gameplay alteration

Postby mibi on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:03 am

what. the. f*ck. is. this.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V14(P7) - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:41 am

mibi wrote:what. the. f*ck. is. this.

Mmmmm. i see you're in fine form again. A more advanced version of PH or even Spaghetti Junction with a touch of Tapas.

Honestly mibi, i must ask that if you don't have anything decent to contribute but only want to be rude, then please stay out of this thread, in fact all my threads, you would not be welcome.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V14(P7) - Gameplay alteration

Postby mibi on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:23 am

cairnswk wrote:
mibi wrote:what. the. f*ck. is. this.

Mmmmm. i see you're in fine form again. A more advanced version of PH or even Spaghetti Junction with a touch of Tapas.

Honestly mibi, i must ask that if you don't have anything decent to contribute but only want to be rude, then please stay out of this thread, in fact all my threads, you would not be welcome.



My apologies. That was my initial reaction upon seeing this map. I suspect its a similar reaction of others who look at the map and choose not to comment. I will give you further and in dept critique at a later point. Cheerio.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V14(P7) - Gameplay alteration

Postby The Neon Peon on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:35 am

I like how you've mixed the ships around, now the bonuses are harder to get and hold, but...

Spanish connects to British in one location. And does not comment to French.

British Connects to French in 4 locations. 2 of them being at the top of the map near the Commanders. Seeing as the commanders start neutral, and you would have to go through 10 to connect, the only way to get from British to French is in the bottom of the map.

Fix these two, and we can get back to the discussion depending on where you choose to connect them.

Otherwise, the only Spanish-British connection has an orange line, not a yellow one.

The commanders should be a different type of ship, not an enlarged regular one. This makes them easier to identify, where right now you might not notice at a quick glance.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V14(P7) - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:14 am

mibi wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
mibi wrote:what. the. f*ck. is. this.

Mmmmm. i see you're in fine form again. A more advanced version of PH or even Spaghetti Junction with a touch of Tapas.

Honestly mibi, i must ask that if you don't have anything decent to contribute but only want to be rude, then please stay out of this thread, in fact all my threads, you would not be welcome.



My apologies. That was my initial reaction upon seeing this map. I suspect its a similar reaction of others who look at the map and choose not to comment. I will give you further and in dept critique at a later point. Cheerio.


My apologies also mibi, but when i see a comment like your initial one with no clarification of what you thoughts are, i am thinking that this is the type of comment tht is not helpful and encouraging. Sorry but that's the way i see things.
I do hope you return with some valuable and positive comments.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V15

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:38 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:I like how you've mixed the ships around, now the bonuses are harder to get and hold, but...

Spanish connects to British in one location. And does not comment to French.

British Connects to French in 4 locations. 2 of them being at the top of the map near the Commanders. Seeing as the commanders start neutral, and you would have to go through 10 to connect, the only way to get from British to French is in the bottom of the map.

Fix these two, and we can get back to the discussion depending on where you choose to connect them.

Otherwise, the only Spanish-British connection has an orange line, not a yellow one.

The commanders should be a different type of ship, not an enlarged regular one. This makes them easier to identify, where right now you might not notice at a quick glance.


Further research done.....
1.the survivors from the Bucantaure were picked up by the Indomptable, so i have swapped Indomptable and Neptune on the map and connected these two vessels.
2. link created between Dreadnought and San Juan de Nepocumeno bothways.
3. links created between french swiftsure and colossus and spanaish bahamas....both swiftsure and bahamas surrended to the birtish.
4. French Intrpid and spanish Rayo now connect.
5. Neptune takes San Feacisco de Asis
6. The commanders vessels have a large rear sail - please refer the legend.

Hope this helps.

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V15(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:10 pm

how do you tell which way the one way border goes
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V15(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:13 pm

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:how do you tell which way the one way border goes
:shock:
British = red
French = blue
Spanish = yellow
If there is a red line from a red ship to a blue ship then the british can one-way attack the french ship.
Isn't this clear in the legend?
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V15(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby ZeakCytho on Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:18 pm

cairnswk wrote:
LED ZEPPELINER wrote:how do you tell which way the one way border goes
:shock:
British = red
French = blue
Spanish = yellow
If there is a red line from a red ship to a blue ship then the british can one-way attack the french ship.
Isn't this clear in the legend?


Hmm...you never say which color is which fleet, come to think of it...
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V15(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby Gypsys Kiss on Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:22 pm

cairnswk wrote:
LED ZEPPELINER wrote:how do you tell which way the one way border goes
:shock:
British = red
French = blue
Spanish = yellow
If there is a red line from a red ship to a blue ship then the british can one-way attack the french ship.
Isn't this clear in the legend?


I must admit I thought that was one of the easier bits, but maybe I'm just getting used to your maps. :D
One thing though, is a line between two ships of the same nationality one-way or two-way.(Sorry if I've missed this elsewhere)




I am going to like this one.

Edit* as soon as i pressed the submit button I realised I was a dickhead, and it is a two-way border :oops:
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V16

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:15 am

Gypsys Kiss wrote:....but maybe I'm just getting used to your maps. :D
...


Yay!, well done. :)

Here is V16 with those adjustments.

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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V16(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby mibi on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:08 pm

Ok Cairns, let me throw some crit your way. I will spare you the thesaurus and snarky attitude :) btw, I don't use thesauruses.

Now I know you have your own style and some of your maps are very complex. Waterloo is hailed as a masterpiece of strategy and complexity. I gave it few go's, not my thing, but I can see the appeal. Almost 200 active games going on that one. Some of your other maps seemed to lack any real raison d'être. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but there should always be the goal of making the best map possible, not every map possible. Being the most prolific map maker on this site Cairns, there is bound to be hits and misses. It should stand to reason though, that with that much experience, you should know what works and what doesn't. Not that active games is the only indication of what works, but it's a factor, as are other qualitations such as fun, enjoyment, replay, etc.

So, here we are with the Battle of Trafalgar. The subject matter is weak. Its a battle no one has heard of in a war no one can name. Further that, for those who know of the battle and may have a historical interest in playing, the battle itself was a proverbial blowout. 22 to 0 if you taking a tally of ships. Is that fun? To get a drop with mostly French, the big losers. Of course you can even the playing field with bonuses and connections and handicaps, but after all that is done, you have evened out what SHOULD be lopsided. It really doesn't make sense. Like if you made a map of the US Army vs New Zealand, and to make it even you had to give NZ all kinds of bonuses and such. So I think the subject is a poor choice.

The graphics, while certainly well done, suffer from some serious type blunders. You have all this text over a patterned or image background. Like the bonus legend, and that red text over the flags in the title area. Basically both of these are competing for the eye and since there is no stroke or highlight around the text, visibility and legibility suffer. It's an easy fix though. Throw a glow in there, or a stroke at 50%, or lighten the BG. Secondly, the map looks like a mess, a giant knot. Or one of those things in Highlights magazine where you have to following the curled and tangled line to help a bear get some honey. At some point, this map loses it's naval combat vibe and takes on one of confusion and disorganization. The one ways, two ways, bombardments and everything else that is explained in the legend is a mistake. While it may hold historical accuracy that Prince and Achille boarded each other or that Scipion bombarded Neptuno and not vice versa, all of this really doesn't matter to someone who isn't intimate with the subject matter. All you have done is create a series of rules that must be followed for no other reason than they exist. That is not fun.

I think the bottom line is, that you have adapted the game to the subject, when you should have adapted the subject to the game. I think there is a good demand for some raucous naval combat. But thats not what this is. This is not naval combat. Nothing about the gameplay or rules is really forcing a naval combat mindset. You could take out the boats, put it spaceships, or tanks, and have the same thing. Take supermax for example, its a prison subject adapted to the game, there are no specifics to one particular prison or rules about where a particular actor is 'supposed' to go. It is open ended with a few rules that are specific to any prison. This map here is a closed loop. Swiftsure can never attack Pluton even though they may have them dead in their sights. This map will never play out as it is historically suppose to, and why should it? Who wants to get a flawless ass whooping. Another example is Battle for Iraq, like this map, it is about a particular situation and location. But it's open ended; players can choose their own destiny, the rules are just their to nudge the gameplay, not force it. The shia hate the suni, but there is no attack route only between them, they can do what they like.

There is probably more I could say, but I am a bit tired. You have great skills cairns and relentless ambition. It's just unfortunate that there hasn't been notable progression in your ability to turn out a truly successful map.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V16(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:19 pm

mibi wrote:Ok Cairns, let me throw some crit your way. I will spare you the thesaurus and snarky attitude :) btw, I don't use thesauruses.

Now I know you have your own style and some of your maps are very complex. Waterloo is hailed as a masterpiece of strategy and complexity. I gave it few go's, not my thing, but I can see the appeal. Almost 200 active games going on that one. Some of your other maps seemed to lack any real raison d'être. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but there should always be the goal of making the best map possible, not every map possible. Being the most prolific map maker on this site Cairns, there is bound to be hits and misses. It should stand to reason though, that with that much experience, you should know what works and what doesn't. Not that active games is the only indication of what works, but it's a factor, as are other qualitations such as fun, enjoyment, replay, etc.

So, here we are with the Battle of Trafalgar. The subject matter is weak. Its a battle no one has heard of in a war no one can name. Further that, for those who know of the battle and may have a historical interest in playing, the battle itself was a proverbial blowout. 22 to 0 if you taking a tally of ships. Is that fun? To get a drop with mostly French, the big losers. Of course you can even the playing field with bonuses and connections and handicaps, but after all that is done, you have evened out what SHOULD be lopsided. It really doesn't make sense. Like if you made a map of the US Army vs New Zealand, and to make it even you had to give NZ all kinds of bonuses and such. So I think the subject is a poor choice.

The graphics, while certainly well done, suffer from some serious type blunders. You have all this text over a patterned or image background. Like the bonus legend, and that red text over the flags in the title area. Basically both of these are competing for the eye and since there is no stroke or highlight around the text, visibility and legibility suffer. It's an easy fix though. Throw a glow in there, or a stroke at 50%, or lighten the BG. Secondly, the map looks like a mess, a giant knot. Or one of those things in Highlights magazine where you have to following the curled and tangled line to help a bear get some honey. At some point, this map loses it's naval combat vibe and takes on one of confusion and disorganization. The one ways, two ways, bombardments and everything else that is explained in the legend is a mistake. While it may hold historical accuracy that Prince and Achille boarded each other or that Scipion bombarded Neptuno and not vice versa, all of this really doesn't matter to someone who isn't intimate with the subject matter. All you have done is create a series of rules that must be followed for no other reason than they exist. That is not fun.

I think the bottom line is, that you have adapted the game to the subject, when you should have adapted the subject to the game. I think there is a good demand for some raucous naval combat. But thats not what this is. This is not naval combat. Nothing about the gameplay or rules is really forcing a naval combat mindset. You could take out the boats, put it spaceships, or tanks, and have the same thing. Take supermax for example, its a prison subject adapted to the game, there are no specifics to one particular prison or rules about where a particular actor is 'supposed' to go. It is open ended with a few rules that are specific to any prison. This map here is a closed loop. Swiftsure can never attack Pluton even though they may have them dead in their sights. This map will never play out as it is historically suppose to, and why should it? Who wants to get a flawless ass whooping. Another example is Battle for Iraq, like this map, it is about a particular situation and location. But it's open ended; players can choose their own destiny, the rules are just their to nudge the gameplay, not force it. The shia hate the suni, but there is no attack route only between them, they can do what they like.

There is probably more I could say, but I am a bit tired. You have great skills cairns and relentless ambition. It's just unfortunate that there hasn't been notable progression in your ability to turn out a truly successful map.


Now mibi, that's the sort of critic i really appreciate and understand....no snarky bits...and i'll not bite your head off for any of it, as i have been thinking the same some of the same things about the gameplay/legend. Much appreciated. if only you could write like that all the time... ;)
Oh, and i'ts not my desire to have the most maps, either, that isn 't a standard for me. However, having lots of time does allow one to get a few maps going, so onward and upward....while i have the time, coz very shortly it may just run out....to uni.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V16(P8) - Gameplay alteration

Postby The Neon Peon on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:37 pm

I disagree with mibi here.

The fact that people have not heard of it, makes a better map because people may learn a thing or two by looking up what type of stuff they are actually playing on. The whole concept of a sea battle is a very good one, especially since someone has now managed to carry it out to make it semi-realistic (all the bombardments, one-way borders, etc.)

You say that the map is inaccurate. Well, if no one has heard of the battle, then 99% of the people will be happy, and those who have heard of it, can feel free to gloat about why it is wrong. Either way, I don't think it is a goal to make everything completely realistic. Here are some solutions for the inaccuracy:
1. Forget about it, seeing as most people won't notice, and we can't make it even close to what the battle was actually like because the ships moved throughout the battle, and when one get's sunk... no territory there anymore.
2. Try to make the map as accurate as possible, then settle for it as the best shot, so no point in complaining about the things which are not like they were in real life.
3. Rename the map, rename the ships part of it, and rename the countries in the battle. Same good map, but without 90% of your critics.
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Re: BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - V17

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:22 pm

Version 17.

In partial answer to mibi's critic, below is a version without the attack lines that might appease the forum.
See what you think.

Image

Click image to enlarge.
image
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