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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map

Postby e_i_pi on Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:17 am

edbeard wrote:I'll come back later (maybe not today) with a proper analysis but one thing I think is important...

42 territories is much better than 41

42 is divisible by 3, 6, and 7

(cough cough and 2 ;) )

/agree

Fitting in one more province would give your map much better gameplay on a range of settings. 2p games would start with equal neutrals to players, 3p would have no neutrals, and you would have only 2 neutrals on 4p 5p 8p.

I have no clue as to the layout of Rose City, so i can't suggest anything, but I would strongly suggest adding in just one more province :D
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map

Postby psilotum on Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:49 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:
psilotum wrote:It's a little strange (game-play wise) that the entire MAX blue line is part of the red line. I realize this is somewhat accurate considering where you cut off the edge of your map. How about including the blue line stop in Goose Hollow or the Zoo? (I know technically those stops would also include the red line, but for game play it would be better if they didn't.


Hmmm... check again - the Blue line does go to the Zoo and even to Beaverton. The Red Line and Blue Line each have 6 stops and only 4 are shared between them - including the Rose Garden Transit Center - which is also shared with Yellow.

*I added a thin, connecting line between these two - does that help visually to connect the Zoo with the Transit Center?



D'oh! Ah, yes. That thin line does help. Perhaps it could be a thick line in a lighter shade? Or perhaps you should still add that Goose Hollow stop.

I look forward to playing this one. It will be fun.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map

Postby lostatlimbo on Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:30 pm

Ah, good suggestions. I'll re-think Downtown some and add that extra territory, then try to submit a new draft next week.

Thanks!
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map

Postby jayde on Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:22 am

I like this idea and give it the Jayde Stamp of Approval. When can we play it?
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Third Draft posted

Postby lostatlimbo on Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:55 pm

Third Draft posted.

Click image to enlarge.
image


Your feedback has been great so far, keep it coming.
Last edited by lostatlimbo on Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Third Draft posted

Postby ReluctantCynic on Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:25 pm

I think the third draft is a significant improvement. And I really like the whole concept - the map is great, gameplay should be interesting, and there are enough unique twists to make strategy lively (without an overwhelming number of options to worry about).

I would suggest a few minor clarifications, though:

1. It's not clear whether Forest Park includes a park space bonus or not. The green box around the "Forest Park" label is kind of faded and washed out, so I can't tell if it's just highlighting forest park or actually includes park land. If it does include a park, I'd separate it from the label somehow. Maybe have a wedge-shaped green space stretching northwest or something.

2. The color for Alberta Arts needs to more closely match the surrounding areas. Right now, I think players could be too easily confused into thinking it's a separate bonus alone or one territory in the surrounding set of NE Portland.

3. It's not clear how Waterfront Park figures into the park bonus option. All the other parks are enclosed within territories, so it's pretty easy to see that you need to occupy the territory to get the park bonus. But Waterfront Park borders four territories. That's visually confusing, and the notation that "Old Town, Pioneer, and S. Park share 1 park" doesn't clarify matters. Does that mean I -- as a player -- have to occupy all three territories to get credit for that one park? Or, for example, would I get a +2 bonus for occupying Old Town, Alameda, St. Johns, and Mt. Tabor?

4. And why doesn't Terwilliger Curves also share the Waterfront Park bonus?
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Third Draft posted

Postby MrBenn on Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:31 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:Third Draft posted.

For future reference, please could you add an updated image to the end of the thread, where you've posted an update, as well as on the first post. It makes the development much easier to follow, and will help people to tie comments to particular versions.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Third Draft posted

Postby bspride on Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:06 pm

I like how you are putting streets on the map...it looks good like that...im hoping your considering doing that for the whole map...also maybe in the parks you could put dirt trails and trees in the continent...other than that the map looks good...keeping on keeping on
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Third Draft posted

Postby lostatlimbo on Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:29 pm

MrBenn wrote:...please could you add an updated image to the end of the thread, where you've posted an update...


Done!

ReluctantCynic wrote:I think the third draft is a significant improvement. And I really like the whole concept - the map is great, gameplay should be interesting, and there are enough unique twists to make strategy lively (without an overwhelming number of options to worry about).


Thanks!

ReluctantCynic wrote:1. It's not clear whether Forest Park includes a park space bonus or not. The green box around the "Forest Park" label is kind of faded and washed out, so I can't tell if it's just highlighting forest park or actually includes park land.


I had hoped to clarify this by requiring Forest Park as part of ANY park bonus - rather than it being a territory with a park. Since Forest Park represents a 5,100 acre stretch of forest, I wanted to represent it as the full territory - hence the pattern of grass, rather than a swatch of color. Initially, I had all of Forest Park outlined with that bright green border, so perhaps that's the way to go? I'll think about this one some more. It needs to be clear from the map that Forest Park is at the center of any Park bonus.

ReluctantCynic wrote:2. The color for Alberta Arts needs to more closely match the surrounding areas. Right now, I think players could be too easily confused into thinking it's a separate bonus alone or one territory in the surrounding set of NE Portland.


Easy fix. I'll make that change with the next draft.

ReluctantCynic wrote:3. It's not clear how Waterfront Park figures into the park bonus option. All the other parks are enclosed within territories, so it's pretty easy to see that you need to occupy the territory to get the park bonus. But Waterfront Park borders four territories. That's visually confusing, and the notation that "Old Town, Pioneer, and S. Park share 1 park" doesn't clarify matters. Does that mean I -- as a player -- have to occupy all three territories to get credit for that one park? Or, for example, would I get a +2 bonus for occupying Old Town, Alameda, St. Johns, and Mt. Tabor? 4. And why doesn't Terwilliger Curves also share the Waterfront Park bonus?


This has been my biggest head-scratcher so far. The notion is that there is one park (Waterfront) that only counts as one park, but can be counted for any of those 3 territories. For example, you could receive a +2 bonus for holding Forest Park, St. Johns, Alameda & Old Town (4 separate parks), but you could not receive a bonus for holding Forest park, St. Johns, Old Town & Pioneer. (only 3 separate parks). Another example would be a player receiving a +5 bonus by holding Forest Park, St. Johns, University, Irvington, Alameda, Mt Tabor, Belmont, & Old Town EVEN IF another player holds Pioneer & South Park, because you are holding 8 separate parks.

On the third draft, I drew up a border around downtown (including that park), but no lines over the park itself. Visually, I had hoped that this would clarify the connection. Terwilliger is not a "park" territory, because there are no parks within its boundaries. Territories that qualify for a park bonus, must have a park within its borders.

I'm open to ideas on how to achieve this visually, though I worry that it may not work for the XML, either, so alternatively I may end up limiting that park to one territory - rather than the three.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Third Draft posted

Postby MrBenn on Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:29 pm

Beaverton & Nob Hill... are these real place names?
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Third Draft posted

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:35 pm

MrBenn wrote:Beaverton & Nob Hill... are these real place names?


Haha! Yes, of course! All of the names on the map are real.

Beaverton is a huge suburb of Portland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaverton,_Oregon

Nob Hill is a fancy section of Downtown Portland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nob_Hill,_Portland,_Oregon
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Third Draft posted

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:58 pm

its cooliesh
sailorseal wrote:My big boy banana was out the whole time :D
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fourth Draft posted

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:03 pm

Fourth Draft update: Made some minor changes regarding coloration. I've also eliminated the confusing park situation in Downtown. Now only "Old Town" is a 'park territory'. I've changed Forest Park's border color to signify that the entire territory is indeed a park.

Smaller Map:
Click image to enlarge.
image


Larger Map:
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fourth Draft posted

Postby lostatlimbo on Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:15 pm

so whats next? I've responded to all the feedback thus far and haven't received anymore.

I'm rather happy with the map as it is and I think I've addressed any potential confusion or gameplay problems.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fourth Draft posted

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:06 pm

I like this map - there's something 'kitsch' about it ;-)

The following is a list of my observations/thoughts, in no particular order:

1. It took me while to figure out that they must be territories on the MAX lines? That really isn't too obvious - especially as none of them are named!

2. There are a lot of 'busy' looking maps in the works right now, and this is one of them. The green park symbols vary in shape and size, and I'm not sure whether that is supposed to be a park in Old Town? It took me a long time to find Forest Park as it doesn;t have one of the green squares on it :?

3. Once I found it, I realised that Forest Park is essential for any of the park bonuses, which makes that terirtory more valuable than anywhere else - particularly as it also has a bicycle on it.... I'd be inclined to move some of the symbols around so that each square has only one symbol...

4. The grid/road effect on the Downtown territories might look better if it was toned down a bit.

5. What does OMSI stand for? What are the different Universities?
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fourth Draft posted

Postby psilotum on Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:50 pm

I was just reading viewtopic.php?f=10&t=40463 and it looks like Mr Benn (?) is the one who can give this map the Draft Stamp to move on to the main foundry.

To spell out the initalizations:
OMSI - Oregon Museum of Science and Industry
UofP - University of Portland
PCC - Portland Community College
OHSU - Oregon Health Sciences University
PSU - Portland State University

Re: Forest Park
Thematically, it is very appropriate to have a bike in Forest Park, as mountain biking is a very popular activity in that park. Perhaps making Forest Park the equivalent of 2 regular park territories (and removing the requirement of holding it to obtain a bonus) would lessen the importance of that one territory?

Re: the MAX line
What if the stops were made to look like rain shelters? However, currently the triangular spikes coming from each stop indicate which territories they attack. There is a simplicity of functionality to that design.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fourth Draft posted

Postby lostatlimbo on Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:00 pm

Hmmm... some very good points.

MrBenn wrote:I like this map - there's something 'kitsch' about it ;-)


Thanks. (I guess). I was kind of going for a "tourism brochure" look - one of those fold-out maps that both simplifies and extols the many virtues of the city you are meant to visit.

MrBenn wrote:1. It took me while to figure out that they must be territories on the MAX lines? That really isn't too obvious - especially as none of them are named!


I actually modeled the MAX lines similar to how they were done on the NYC map. The primary difference being that each of those stops is contained within a single territory, whereas mine straddle two or more. I think my only other option is to give them each a number?

MrBenn wrote:2. There are a lot of 'busy' looking maps in the works right now, and this is one of them. The green park symbols vary in shape and size, and I'm not sure whether that is supposed to be a park in Old Town? It took me a long time to find Forest Park as it doesn;t have one of the green squares on it :?


Yes - that is a park in Old Town. I was hoping the coloration would tie it in with the other parks.
Re: Forest Park - The previous version of the map did have a green square in it, but another poster said that it was more confusing that way. The idea is that the territory of Forest Park is a park (it actually takes up that much space on a real map too!). I'll keep brainstorming this one until I find a happy medium.

MrBenn wrote:3. Once I found it, I realised that Forest Park is essential for any of the park bonuses, which makes that terirtory more valuable than anywhere else - particularly as it also has a bicycle on it.... I'd be inclined to move some of the symbols around so that each square has only one symbol...


There are a few other maps that have similar gameplay (where one territory makes several others valuable) - for example the "Warden" in Prison Riot or the "Throne" in Siege, the "Leader" in Drug War. However - I am not opposed to changing this. I'll give it some more thought.

MrBenn wrote:5. What does OMSI stand for? What are the different Universities?


OMSI = Oregon Museum of Science & Industry. Early on, I had several Portlanders tell me it was sacrilegious to not include it on the map, but I'm not particularly attached to it being a bonus. I may end up just sticking it in the water and removing it from the bonuses.

PSU = Portland State University
UofP = University of Portland
OHSU = Oregon Health & Science University
PCC = Portland Community College

Thanks for all your input! I will start working on another draft in the near future and see if I can't clear up some of the confusing elements.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fourth Draft posted

Postby lostatlimbo on Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:02 pm

psilotum wrote:Perhaps making Forest Park the equivalent of 2 regular park territories (and removing the requirement of holding it to obtain a bonus) would lessen the importance of that one territory?


That's a good idea. I think I'll try that next.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fourth Draft posted

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:02 pm

Fifth Draft update: Forest Park is no longer required for a park bonus - now all parks are equal. Moved some bonuses around for a more even spread. Added #s to all MAX stops (except Transit Center). Altered some bonus amounts for consistency. Also added some texture to Forest Park and a map header and toned down Downtown's road grid for look and style improvement.

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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fifth Draft posted

Postby MrBenn on Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:00 pm

I actually modeled the MAX lines similar to how they were done on the NYC map. The primary difference being that each of those stops is contained within a single territory, whereas mine straddle two or more. I think my only other option is to give them each a number?

having the lines attached to two territories will make naming them harder - the way that NYC clarifies them is by using the 'Station' prefix in the XML, something that is harder to achieve here

MrBenn wrote:2. There are a lot of 'busy' looking maps in the works right now, and this is one of them. The green park symbols vary in shape and size, and I'm not sure whether that is supposed to be a park in Old Town? It took me a long time to find Forest Park as it doesn;t have one of the green squares on it :?

Yes - that is a park in Old Town. I was hoping the coloration would tie it in with the other parks.
Re: Forest Park - The previous version of the map did have a green square in it, but another poster said that it was more confusing that way. The idea is that the territory of Forest Park is a park (it actually takes up that much space on a real map too!). I'll keep brainstorming this one until I find a happy medium.

The square around the Forwest Park name helps, as does making the Old Town park more boxy.

MrBenn wrote:3. Once I found it, I realised that Forest Park is essential for any of the park bonuses, which makes that terirtory more valuable than anywhere else - particularly as it also has a bicycle on it.... I'd be inclined to move some of the symbols around so that each square has only one symbol...

There are a few other maps that have similar gameplay (where one territory makes several others valuable) - for example the "Warden" in Prison Riot or the "Throne" in Siege, the "Leader" in Drug War. However - I am not opposed to changing this. I'll give it some more thought.

How many territories are there here? [goes to look]... 42... so it's in the mid-range sized maps... the examples you gave make much better strategic use of the 'special' territory in terms of placement and/or accessibility... I'm still uncertain here :?

Anyway, you're heading in the right direction - before things move up a gear, it would be nice to see wider support for this from the community at large ;-)

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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fifth Draft posted

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:51 pm

MrBenn wrote:Anyway, you're heading in the right direction - before things move up a gear, it would be nice to see wider support for this from the community at large ;-)
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Yay! I guess that means I need to start promoting it?

MrBenn wrote:having the lines attached to two territories will make naming them harder - the way that NYC clarifies them is by using the 'Station' prefix in the XML, something that is harder to achieve here


I agree. I think the simple numbering system works. Maybe I should make those larger?

MrBenn wrote:the examples you gave make much better strategic use of the 'special' territory in terms of placement and/or accessibility... I'm still uncertain here :?


Now that I am treating Forest Park like all other parks is this still an issue? It is a much less important space now.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fifth Draft posted

Postby flexmaster33 on Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:16 am

I like this a lot...very nice lost...can't wait to have a PDX map to choose...perhaps a new favorite for tourneys and such. Plus, we need some more West Coast representation on here. Nice job...I wouldn't change anything.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fifth Draft posted

Postby Astoria on Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:54 pm

Hello, All and, especially, Oregonians! (nice to realize there are more of you in CC than i thought)

Very Very Nice Job, Lostatlimbo! =D>
It is Great to see how far you went with PDX map. I like a lot what you chose to be symbols of the City on the map. Zoo, Parks, Garden, Universities and Biking Areas are definitely very important and significant parts of the City. OMSI is also definitely great place to go once you are in the City(as traveler).


I really like how the map is. But there are few points i would like share:
1. Arenas. Lostatlimbo, you mentioned earlier that you had been thinking whether to include TrailBlazers arena or not. So here is what i think, -when speaking of PDX, we just cant miss Rose Garden and PGE Park. I mean, you can see Rose Garden(RG) almost from the every part of the Downtown(unless there is a Skyscraper on your way;)) and it is always so great to look at it. Yeah, perhaps for someone(older generations) the design of is a bit too modern, but noone can stay indifferent. RG and Bridges(see below) are the Symbols of the City in architectural sense, because of its unique design, at least i think so. PGE Park. It is more than a park, no matter whether you Beaver's or for Duck's fan.(well, mb a bit it does). But each time passing it i have a feeling i can't explain. It is like PGE Park is alive no matter whether it is hot game there and all the seats are taken or whether it is 12pm when it is quiet and noone is inside. It is like it has a sole. And a heart.
Yes, i am aware about some copyright issues we can face here. Well, ok we cant use photos and images. Can we use their names? I hope so. Or mb we can use some kind of drownings of our own? They should not be exact copies with some photoshop filters of course. Or mb we can simply use a Basketball Ball and a Baseball Ball? Just think of it, these two would be neat points on the Map for sure.

2. Bridges. It is not a secret that Portland's another famous nickname is Bridgetown. Indeed, there are plenty of them here and wow they are really marvelous. I really love them. I can stare and stare and stare. Especially, Hawthorne and Morrison ones. I am much more fascinated by Bridges than Sport Arenas so i better go straight to my point).
First of all, i really understand it is hard to work with bridges(whether you are making map in CC or working on a real one in real life) in general. But it would be great, just to see them marked different on the map and a legend with their names. Well, mb that's too much and just not the way you see this map. But, please, consider using Bridges as alternative to MAX's stops if you would face difficulties when working on Bonus system for the metro line. Bridges. There are plenty of them(well, 6 on this map) and it wont be hard to make a Bonus system for them. Like 1 army for holding 3 Bridges etc. Just keep it in mind, Bridgetown Dweller!

3. Colors. They are good and i like them. Anyhow, i think you should make a bigger difference between North and Southeast. Even though they dont have mutual borders. Southeast should be "pinker".
And then Northeast. Don't you think it should be real Orange instead of Dark Orange. Or whatever color you wanna see it. I mean, this is City of Roses, of flowers. And flowers are bright and colorful and beautiful. I mean, i would understand that kind of color in Seattle or another city or town( take Astoria for example ;) ) where it often rains. Well, you got the point, don't you?

Looking Forward Very Much on this One and will be Glad to Participate or Help! :)
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fifth Draft posted

Postby lostatlimbo on Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:59 pm

Hi Astoria - thanks for all your feedback. Very in-depth!

... we just cant miss Rose Garden and PGE Park.


I've had a lot of requests for including Rose Garden, but I still believe the "cons" of adding these outweigh the "pros".

a) As Mr. Benn noted, the map is already very busy. I could squeeze the Rose Garden into Irvington, but trying to fit PGE into Goose Hollow would require a major re-design.
b) In my opinion, adding them to the map does not improve gameplay. There are already many bonuses options and I couldn't fit them into existing bonus structure. It would be a new bonus for two territories?

When I look at comparable city maps none of them show arenas. The Yankees stadium is arguably the most historic park in the US and yet the NYC map does not display it. Same goes for the Habs' ice rink in Montreal. There is no Candlestick Park in San Francisco (even though the region is shown) & no Mariners, Seahawks or Key Arena in Puget Sound. If adding PGE and Rose Garden improved gameplay, I would be all for it, but I have not seen a case made for that aspect.

It is not a secret that Portland's another famous nickname is Bridgetown. Indeed, there are plenty of them here and wow they are really marvelous. I really love them. I can stare and stare and stare.


On this, I completely agree! I love our bridges. St. John's is my personal favorite.
...it would be great, just to see them marked different on the map and a legend with their names. But, please, consider using Bridges as alternative to MAX's stops if you would face difficulties when working on Bonus system for the metro line.
.

I'll think this one over. While it would be fairly simple to set up a bridge bonus system, I still worry that it would further clutter the map. I don't think I'd be willing to abandon the MAX element, but at the very least, I promise I will put some more effort into the visual look of the bridges and pay some homage to our alternative nickname!
3. Colors. They are good and i like them. Anyhow, i think you should make a bigger difference between North and Southeast. Even though they dont have mutual borders. Southeast should be "pinker".


I can do that.
And then Northeast. Don't you think it should be real Orange instead of Dark Orange.


I tried to keep the colors in a similar hue. I will play around with the colors, but I think combining several bright colors would be too overpowering to look at for long periods. I may be wrong though, so I'll give it a shot!
I mean, i would understand that kind of color in Seattle or another city or town( take Astoria for example ) where it often rains.


Don't forget - it is quite rainy in Portland too! (especially during this season)
Last edited by lostatlimbo on Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rose City (Portland, OR) Map - Fifth Draft posted

Postby BeakerWMA on Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:27 pm

Like this map, can't wait to try it.
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