Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby Ace Rimmer on Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:58 pm

The docks aren't an issue, just the fact that you start with 13. However you get it down to 11 would be good, right now there's too much of a first-turn advantage. In my sole Atlantis game so far (Game 6454753), my partner had fantastic dice and knocked the next guy down to 10, since then we've been firmly in control.

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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby Premier2k on Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:25 am

There is a def advantage dropping the docks. I'm going to make a small modification over the weekend and start them as neutral. I'll post the link when I'm done.

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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby Gilligan on Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:01 am

I really thought Euclid was a port... Can we perhaps move that sentence elsewhere to avoid confusion?
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:08 pm

Gilligan wrote:I really thought Euclid was a port... Can we perhaps move that sentence elsewhere to avoid confusion?

Well, there was quite a lot of work done on the legend, but this is what Beta is for. Swapping the boat and port statments would likely fix this.
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby MrBenn on Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:11 pm

ender516 wrote:
Gilligan wrote:I really thought Euclid was a port... Can we perhaps move that sentence elsewhere to avoid confusion?

Well, there was quite a lot of work done on the legend, but this is what Beta is for. Swapping the boat and port statments would likely fix this.

So too would aligning the symbols to the right of the text...
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:22 pm

MrBenn wrote:
ender516 wrote:
Gilligan wrote:I really thought Euclid was a port... Can we perhaps move that sentence elsewhere to avoid confusion?

Well, there was quite a lot of work done on the legend, but this is what Beta is for. Swapping the boat and port statments would likely fix this.

So too would aligning the symbols to the right of the text...

I believe that was tried and found wanting. Having the symbol close to the word (the subject in each sentence) ties them together better.
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby Arachnophobia on Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:45 am

I just finished playing my first game on this map (lost :( ) and I didnt quite understand what "Ports and boats cannot assault like territories" means. Dunno if that was said before. The legend text should be self-evident, which it isnt (it seems to me). Either im too stupid or it should be clarified. Im pretty sure if someone explains it to me, I'll go "oooh of course!" ^^
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:30 pm

Arachnophobia wrote:I just finished playing my first game on this map (lost :( ) and I didnt quite understand what "Ports and boats cannot assault like territories" means. Dunno if that was said before. The legend text should be self-evident, which it isnt (it seems to me). Either im too stupid or it should be clarified. Im pretty sure if someone explains it to me, I'll go "oooh of course!" ^^

It means ports cannot attack other ports and boats cannot attack other boats. Here, "like" means "similar" or "of the same class". Don't read it here as "as". Boats do attack ports just as an adjacenct territory can, and ports do attack boats as a territory might, but port territories are the only ones adjacent to the boats.
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby Premier2k on Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:02 pm

ender516 wrote:
Arachnophobia wrote:I just finished playing my first game on this map (lost :( ) and I didnt quite understand what "Ports and boats cannot assault like territories" means. Dunno if that was said before. The legend text should be self-evident, which it isnt (it seems to me). Either im too stupid or it should be clarified. Im pretty sure if someone explains it to me, I'll go "oooh of course!" ^^

It means ports cannot attack other ports and boats cannot attack other boats. Here, "like" means "similar" or "of the same class". Don't read it here as "as". Boats do attack ports just as an adjacenct territory can, and ports do attack boats as a territory might, but port territories are the only ones adjacent to the boats.

Yep, What he said! :)

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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby Arachnophobia on Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:16 pm

aaah so the "like" is not a comparatitve like but a "same type" like. Thats pretty counter-intuitive, as it uses a more obscure meaning of the word "like", and most of all, it is redundant. Territory borders are either visible borders on the map or are declared (in a positivist sense). Thats what happened with the non-visible borders between any port and any boat.
To clarify it, you could do "A Port can attack any boat, but no other port" and alike for the boat declaration and leave out that confusing sentence. That way, the legend is shorter and more precise and understandable.

That said, I really like the map. I will definately play it again ^^
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby MrBenn on Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:14 pm

Arachnophobia wrote:aaah so the "like" is not a comparatitve like but a "same type" like. Thats pretty counter-intuitive, as it uses a more obscure meaning of the word "like", and most of all, it is redundant. Territory borders are either visible borders on the map or are declared (in a positivist sense). Thats what happened with the non-visible borders between any port and any boat.
To clarify it, you could do "A Port can attack any boat, but no other port" and alike for the boat declaration and leave out that confusing sentence. That way, the legend is shorter and more precise and understandable.

That said, I really like the map. I will definately play it again ^^

That's not a bad suggestion...
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby Premier2k on Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:01 pm

That's quite a good suggestion actually! I'll get Nem to make some changes.
I still need to make a slight modification to the XML which I'm hoping to do over the next couple of days.
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:11 am

Premier2k wrote:That's quite a good suggestion actually! I'll get Nem to make some changes.
I still need to make a slight modification to the XML which I'm hoping to do over the next couple of days.

What are you planning to change in the XML?
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby army of nobunaga on Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:12 pm

This is the first map I think Ive ever found the thread to type something negative about. Mainly because I like almost ALL maps. I like Variety and almost have a win or few on every single map.

But I dont like this one.


This is maybe the 3rd time ive played the map.

Game 6522307

And the map layout, just isn't fun. I like the general Idea and I think it could be adjusted for better play.


Negatives
1) When does the inner rings ever become a factor? In like 3 games now, we all just go in a circle on the outside circle... even on esc!
2) There are choke points all over the place. I know, not in theory there shouldnt be, but in real play there are.

Positives
1) theme
2) simple nice colored artwork, well done



things that need to be improved.... well make the inner rings even a real option. I know you aer saying they come into play in no spoils... but theywhole map should at least be part of the play on every setting. At least in my opinion.

Maybe a map feeder system like in Jamaica... lower the neutrals... i dunno.

I do know as it stands ill get my one win here and never play it again.

thanx
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby army of nobunaga on Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:08 pm

I guess what Im suggesting, Is this should not be like the Oasis... The inner rings should NOT be so damn hard to get too.. you cant fight other people at your back AND expand over high neutrals. Jsut lower the bonus of the inner rings a bit and drop those neutrals down to 1 and 2's ... I really think It would add a "scramble" factor to the map rather than us all going in a big ass circle around the outside through choke points. I wish you would try this for like 3 days and play it, I have a feeling that with the depth this map has in gameplay it could be one of the best.
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:13 pm

I recently won an esc game on this where all of the map was being used. The temples at the center came real handy when an unsuspecting foe had left his stacks on docks & ports... ;)
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby army of nobunaga on Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:20 pm

well, Im glad you got to it... Ill try one more time... If its a big circle J3$k again, Im done with it.


(edit)

please help me fill it out Game 6619313 and don't give me "I don't like those settings" junk. When I was a kid a good CC'er would play CC with 5 rocks and dirt map if he had to.
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:27 pm

Like natty, I have found that the inner rings are important for breaking outer ring bonuses. I was in a foggy game and didn't even know where to go to stop the pounding, other than that I had to make my way inward.
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby army of nobunaga on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:54 am

well I did a 20 min. search and looky yesterday on played games there.. looks like it depends on fog or not.

Ill try it on escalating ....
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:16 pm

I've been meaning to request this for some time, but I have just added the following text to the guidelines for the Forge:
While the map is nearing the end of the Beta phase, the mapmaker(s) will be asked to populate the Map Portal Database.

I'd be grateful if you (or your representative) could oblige, and also notify in this thread once it's done ;-)
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby natty dread on Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:16 pm

Benn, seriously, did the same text really need to be posted on all the FF threads? ;)
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:58 pm

Well, we have already heard that there is a lack of cross-pollination between topics, and each developer does need to be asked.
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby Ray Rider on Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:31 pm

Arachnophobia wrote:aaah so the "like" is not a comparatitve like but a "same type" like. Thats pretty counter-intuitive, as it uses a more obscure meaning of the word "like", and most of all, it is redundant. Territory borders are either visible borders on the map or are declared (in a positivist sense). Thats what happened with the non-visible borders between any port and any boat.
To clarify it, you could do "A Port can attack any boat, but no other port" and alike for the boat declaration and leave out that confusing sentence. That way, the legend is shorter and more precise and understandable.

QFT I'm playing my second game on this map, and I was still confused about which could attack what (I came to this thread to find out. I didn't want to deploy 110 troops only to find that I couldn't attack in the direction I expected).

Anyhow, I'm currently playing with a bunch of other majors in an escalating, sunny game on this map and finding it easy to end up in a deadlock. The cash in rate is currently at 105 and it's extremely difficult to figure out how to wipe anyone out thanks to the deadends and one way attacks (boat to port, port to boat, etc). I just wiped out the first player and am currently the strongest on the map, but I don't see any way to end it soon. The various temple's abilities to bombard seem pointless, since there isn't really any reason to attack unless you can take the territory you're attacking.

My advice would be to lower the number of neutrals in the center areas (as someone else said, it would create a rush for the center which would be pretty fun, rather than chasing each other around the outside), open up the attacks between boats and ports so it's less complicated, and allow the temples to attack normally rather than bombard....that's just me though, I prefer simple maps lol

Btw, my apologies for jumping in and only reading the last five pages before giving my opinion. Feel free to ignore this ;)
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:36 am

A minor quibble about territory names. I was glancing back at a log and saw

Game log wrote:2010-03-19 09:24:17 - stealth99 assaulted Nu from Argyros and conquered it from neutral player
2010-03-19 09:24:23 - stealth99 assaulted Pollux from Nu and conquered it from neutral player
2010-03-19 09:24:27 - stealth99 assaulted Styx from Nu and conquered it from neutral player


I wondered how you could attack an inner island and back out again, because for a moment I thought Nu, being a Greek letter name, was on Atlanta or the Temple Isles. A look at the map showed me my error. Maybe it's just one of those quirks that every map has that one has to learn, but if you fellows find yourselves revising the map at all, it might be worth changing. Xi might cause the same confusion for someone as well. In neither case would I push for these changes unless they were being piggybacked on other graphical updates.
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Re: Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:08 pm

Premier2k wrote:That's quite a good suggestion actually! I'll get Nem to make some changes.
I still need to make a slight modification to the XML which I'm hoping to do over the next couple of days.

Did those changes ever get made?
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