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WWII:Poland [Quenched]

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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby samuelc812 on Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:19 pm

Yes i agree, the P.A.F. would be better off at 8 neutrals and that change will probably be made. As for the planes, it clearly states in the legend that they can only bombard. If you don't read the instructions, you can't really blame me for that, however considering i have had reports that the legend is a bit hard to read, i will be making it more legible before this gets out of beta ;)

~Sam
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby mgconstruction on Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:47 pm

Sam, I really like this map. Ive lost the first 3 games but I like it none the less. I continually forted to planes without reading the legend (my fault) But I think that's what makes this a fun map, it requires some thought before & during taking your turn. A little more play time with it & this could become one of my favorites. =D>
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:53 am

I don't like how the gameplay breaks down on this map, and I don't think raising the neutral count will solve it. As it stands, it boils down to who has the most awesome dice over time when taking their tank and PAF, then subsequent commanders, tanks, and requisite retakes of PAF.

Victory boils down to who can take PAF fastest AND THEN take commanders from people. Whoever holds the most commanders, regardless of whether or not they can actively utilize the extra armies in battle. And since it's a matter of dice thanks to the perfect balance of the map, it's a matter of luck.

Two issues I see in the gameplay. First, there is zero incentive to go for other bonuses. Going for tanks is pointless, as that's armies that should go to taking PAF. Going for planes is pointless as you can only pick up one easily, and the other is armies better used towards taking PAF. To solve this, I would say that planes should be able to attack each other, by standard border rules. That gives incentive to actually build the bonus without being at the exception of work elsewhere. The tanks are a sticky issue, as giving a bonus for 2 becomes an issue in smaller-man games (I've mostly played 6-8p on this map).

Second, there is only one territory between the player's start and PAF. 10 neutrals is fairly easy to get past, particularly if people have lucky dice. Then the game turns into the problem outlined above. That is the only strategy that works, as anyone who bothers to attack planes has wasted armies and just get mopped up later when they're stranded out in bombard-only land. This could be solved one of two ways. Make it two territories between PAF and commanders, or allow planes to bombard PAF (simulated dog fight). That makes more than one approach viable due to time required to get and take PAF.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby natty dread on Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:11 am

allow planes to bombard PAF


This. Would improve the map very much.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby jefjef on Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:16 am

natty_dread wrote:
allow planes to bombard PAF


This. Would improve the map very much.


IMO this map plays very well. If you think allowing planes to attack PAF it should be allowed for PAF to assault planes also.

PAF could be a larger neutral though with injuring the game.

The map requires strategy. And as far as luck & dice EVERY game is controlled by that.
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby natty dread on Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:12 pm

And as far as luck & dice EVERY game is controlled by that.


Sure, but some more than others...
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby nippersean on Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:56 pm

samuelc812 wrote:Yes i agree, the P.A.F. would be better off at 8 neutrals and that change will probably be made. As for the planes, it clearly states in the legend that they can only bombard. If you don't read the instructions, you can't really blame me for that, however considering i have had reports that the legend is a bit hard to read, i will be making it more legible before this gets out of beta ;)

~Sam


Sam (and Manbungalow),

I've only played 1v1.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with the setup as is.
There have been a couple of first round wins, but this is about a 2% chance. If the 1st player fails they in big trouble having killed PAF neutrals. It's a poor tactic IMO. The first player can have great rolls in any 1v1 and be in a huge position. Here it's a massive gamble to go straight for PAF. Even 9-3 all out for PAF,going first is dangerous.
Six neutrals is still a sizeable amt to kill unless you get rainbow spoils, the last couple of games I've played have been much more cat n mouse.


The planes are useful for the +1 / spoils / seeing tanks in the fog etc. I think f they did more they would be too strong for+2 neutrals.
If people fort too many to them it's because they haven't read the legend and will know next time.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby danryan on Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:41 pm

Having played this map quite a bit I agree with the change of PAF from 6 to 8. Otherwise with extremely lucky dice one player can win on turn 1. No map should allow a player to win without the other taking a turn. Just from the top of my head I can't think of a map on cc where you can win without the opponent ever taking his turn.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:31 pm

I randomly sampled page 1 and 13 of completed games on the map, and most games last for something between 4-7 rounds. There were no 1st round eliminations in my sample, although only one game seemed to last for any length of time (27 rounds). To all intents and purposes, this is reminiscent of Doodle Earth - the issue here is whether anything can be done to make the map a bit more strategic?

I quite like the idea of the planes being able to bombard PAF, and PAF being able to bombard the planes back... although not too sure what impact that would have.

Everything else being equal, if PAF were bumped up a little, I could see an argument to increase the planes bonus to +2 for 2.... The other option (which isn't really a viable one), is to increase the distances between the commanders and the PAF... :-k
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby natty dread on Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:19 pm

Something that came up in a game of mine...

2009-11-24 02:40:51 - william tennant: damn, didn't see those red troops in Mikhail Kovalev... red camoflauged against red there.
2009-11-24 02:40:57 - william tennant: that could cost me the game!
2009-11-24 02:58:25 - Hillbubble: not yet
2009-11-24 03:12:39 - william tennant: redeemed by a lucky set of cards. that red on red thing is a good trick though!
2009-11-24 03:12:56 - william tennant: especially when working on a little laptop...


So, perhaps adding army circles would be a good idea... Think of those with poor vision, red player's troops on the russian territories can indeed easily be unnoticed.

I don't think it's a big issue, not even sure if it's worth fixing, but just thought I'd bring it up.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby nippersean on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:12 pm

No please don't up the planes bonus right now play some more! - they are all ready strong - believe me.
The more and better players I play on this map no-one goes for PAF! Except for final kill. The Polish Generals are strong!
I'm sure these type of discussions went on when AOR started.

Response to my clan leader Dan - you can "win" most maps 1v1 with 16-0 first turns. Only AOR and Poland completely but AOR and New World it's stats easier to eliminate one opponents "home" and have clear win than it is Poland and the punishment for failure is harsher in Poland IMO. Virtually any 1v1 with those rolls and first turn wins. Actually in Poland the risk is much greater to lose. I'll happily take on anyone who has 1st turn wins 4-0 to tank and auto's PAF. You can't say that in any other map 1v1 going second and 4-0 down.

Please hold fire before making changes - a lot of people just aren't that good at the map - me too! But just one loss / fluke doesn't make the map flawed. Get some stats re 1st / 2nd turn PAF? I bet that most of the wins are 'cos someone went for it underprepared.

Edit - I'm trying to say the second player has a great chance - when 1st player overdid it going for quick kill - unusual in 1v1
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby jammyjames on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:14 pm

i think the map is perfect how it is... evenly balanced. great map samuel... im 77% win ratio on it from about 70 games
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby barterer2002 on Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:34 pm

My reaction is that there is too much power for the PAS. To kill off the generals you have to hold that. Now obviously you're best bet is to be the second player in-let the first destroy himself against the neutrals and then take it but if you've timed it well you have your planes to take out tanks, the PAS to take off the generals and then can pick off the other planes at leisure. I've only played it 3 times (3, 4, and 6 player games) so maybe its a feature of not knowing how to play but I'm not sure how one would win this one without dominating the PAS.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby captainwalrus on Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:09 pm

Ok, so what happes if:
Player one has some stuff and a plane
Player two has some stuff and a plane
Player three kicks ass and takes everything excpet the 2 planes. One and two can't do anything now.
Then, player three deadbeats. It is then a draw?
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby natty dread on Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:07 pm

Hmm. Good point!

The planes should have at least one territory that they can attack, not just bombard.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:09 pm

captainwalrus wrote:Ok, so what happes if:
Player one has some stuff and a plane
Player two has some stuff and a plane
Player three kicks ass and takes everything excpet the 2 planes. One and two can't do anything now.
Then, player three deadbeats. It is then a draw?

If people only have planes, nothing can happen. First surviving player on the player list wins =\
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby samuelc812 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:10 pm

Thanks for bringing this up captainwalrus, this is what Beta is for :)

Ok so how about instead of the planes bombarding tanks only they can only attack tanks instead? Remove the bombarding function from the planes. Make it so Tanks cannot attack back to the planes, but the planes can attack tanks and therefore get back into the game in the situation of someone deadbeating ?

~Sam
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:17 pm

samuelc812 wrote:Thanks for bringing this up captainwalrus, this is what Beta is for :)

Ok so how about instead of the planes bombarding tanks only they can only attack tanks instead? Remove the bombarding function from the planes. Make it so Tanks cannot attack back to the planes, but the planes can attack tanks and therefore get back into the game in the situation of someone deadbeating ?

~Sam

No. Definitely no.

This isn't an issue specific to Poland; the same thing could technically happen on Waterloo or any other map that has territories that can only bombard.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby samuelc812 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:26 pm

Then what would you suggest .44, we just leave it ?

~Sam
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby captainwalrus on Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:02 pm

Yeah, it probably won't happen much. I was just curious.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:52 pm

samuelc812 wrote:Then what would you suggest .44, we just leave it ?

~Sam

Precisely.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:35 pm

samuelc812 wrote:Thanks for bringing this up captainwalrus, this is what Beta is for :)

Ok so how about instead of the planes bombarding tanks only they can only attack tanks instead? Remove the bombarding function from the planes. Make it so Tanks cannot attack back to the planes, but the planes can attack tanks and therefore get back into the game in the situation of someone deadbeating ?

~Sam


I'd recommend changing it so that planes can assault nearby planes and tanks. Or just nearby tanks (say, up to two spots away). Assault *something* that lets a player that's been relegated to planes get back to the rest of the map. Because it's not just a question of deadlock; you never want to leave a player absolutely powerless to win, because then either they're forced to continue a meaningless charade of taking their turns in vain, wasting their own time, or they deadbeat, wasting everyone else's time. It's just not a very nice thing to do.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:42 pm

Can the panes bombard the PAF? That would be some sort of solution.... so that armies on the planes could at least be of some use....
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:53 pm

MrBenn wrote:Can the panes bombard the PAF? That would be some sort of solution.... so that armies on the planes could at least be of some use....

Assault would be better than bombard here. It solves the problem of giving the planes some kind of egress, and even gives the planebound player a shot at retaking a general and getting back on their feet.
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Re: WWII:Poland [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:01 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:
MrBenn wrote:Can the panes bombard the PAF? That would be some sort of solution.... so that armies on the planes could at least be of some use....

Assault would be better than bombard here. It solves the problem of giving the planes some kind of egress, and even gives the planebound player a shot at retaking a general and getting back on their feet.

Except then the PAF becomes even more accessible than through the tanks :-k
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PB: 2661 | He's blue... If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that
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Lieutenant MrBenn
 
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:32 am
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