WWII:Poland [Quenched]

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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V2- 24/1/09

Postby samuelc812 on Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:39 pm

That's a good idea edbeard, i was thinking the map could do with more bonuses ;)
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V2- 24/1/09

Postby MrBenn on Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:53 pm

This map is looking good... keep up the good work ;-)
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PB: 2661 | He's blue... If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby samuelc812 on Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:18 pm

Changes:
  • Improved Header
  • Added Barbed Wire Impassables
  • Added Proposed Neutrals and Starting Armies
  • Added Polish Air-Force in the Centre of Poland

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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby samuelc812 on Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:29 pm

Feedback? :P
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:32 pm

Wow! Good stuff.
Just one major comment for now....the title area grabs one's eyes completely because of the yellow. Perhaps tone it all down a fraction so that the map it the one what sticks out. :)
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby The Neon Peon on Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:37 pm

A+ on the legend. I like the new territory borders, look much better.

I would say the gameplay needs some work. I'll get back to you on that in a bit.
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby Balsiefen on Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:13 pm

Bit of gameplay: Von Bock has rather an atvantage in being very close to the central attackything. It could easily be held in one turn, providing a major advantage and possibly even allowing them to knock out one of the other players. You should make it equally difficult for all generals to get to the center.

Edit: Didn't notice the tanks. In actual case von runstedt and kovalev have a disadvantage. Maybe shifting a tank to sc6 and gc4 and jigging borders so von R can attack gc4 would be best to solve the problem.

Edit 2: also gc7 looks like 2 territs, I'd widen the neck a bit.

Love the map! :D
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby The Neon Peon on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:45 pm

Gameplay: anyone who goes into Poland dies.

You put a plane next to every starting point, meaning that you have a way to bombard any region of Poland just one territory away from a +3 autodeploy spot. Meaning that anyone who even tries to go into Poland will just get themselves bombarded to death.

I don't think this is a good thing. the only reason you can go out into Poland is if your enemy does, a standoff since neither will be the one to first get themselves killed.
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby samuelc812 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:13 pm

I think would be great fun, to have people making a run for it :lol:

Perhaps if i scrap the "All Planes can attack any territ within Poland" Rule and just make a few of the territs with nothing on them, with crosshairs on them. And they can be the targets for the planes?

I am going to add Barbed Wire within Poland to make it a little bit more even, as it is now Fedor von Bock has a big advantage i think ;)
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby edbeard on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:59 pm

shouldn't it be the opposite? Why would I care about the blank territories? You should be able to bombard tanks with planes and possibly the commanders too (though this might be a bad idea. see my point below)

I think people will advance into Poland. They just have to play a fine line. Don't move too many away from your commander. But don't put too few where they can be easily taken over. I think the question is whether bonuses are big enough to encourage attacking neutrals.

shouldn't tanks be worth more than planes since some planes are very easy to grab and harder for other people to take. PC3 for example can only be attacked from Ferdinand Catlos and PC1 tank.

Also, who is going attack/take over a Polish Commander with 5 neutrals when taking them gives a +1 bonus? you can increase the bonus to +4 (deployable anywhere) but that might make them constant targets of bombardment by planes. perhaps increase the bonus and make planes only able to bombard tanks whilst making tanks have a +3 bonus for every two held. this makes spreading to Poland both worthwhile and necessary. I can get more bonuses than I can by planes. I need to spread there to be able to stop and/or gain the big commander bonuses.
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby oaktown on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:54 am

looking nice sammy... I'm a sucker for maps with a historical perspective.

Gameplay thoughts: I think tricky rules are fun, especially if the rules fit the unit type. I'm concerned, however that you may have one too many layers of rules. The fact that you've got tanks, planes, and commanders, each of which has special movement/bonus powers isn't so bad, but then there seem to be exceptions to each. The tanks can attack two territories, but not through barbed wire. Aircraft can bombard only, but not everything. Commanders can't attack other commanders, which seems to be a redundant rule because I can't see where they border anyway. And that weird thing in the middle can attack the commanders, but only the ones outside of Poland.

As for nobody going into Poland: of course somebody will have to go into Poland, because it's the only way to knock each other out. But Neon Peon is right in that going into Poland could just be prove a lesson in frustration. Many games will end with mad-dashes to the center, which isn't befitting a map that is called "The Invasion of Poland." Where's the invasion part? I think that actually taking Poland has to be more attractive.

Visually the basic elements are looking very nice - the territories and borders are clean, and I dig the region titles. Tanks and planes look sharp; the fences, arrows, and flags will probably need some more attention.
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby lt_oddball on Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:33 am

It the legend it isnot explained how commanders outside polish borders can be attacked ..

How can there be one victor if every player keeps his commander ?????


And why so strong +3 autodeployment..too much. :sick:

And this plane bombarding any place in poland..nay-nay too much emphasis on the airfields.
better use an idea I had before; separate airdomination "fields"; a string of 6 territories at the side or top of the map..each one linearly attcking the next (for dominance position) and each one capable of bombarding a fixed set of ground territories (f.e. marked with "a", the next "b"). The more airdominance fields you have , the more airdominance you have..

Your gameconcept makes it this a grabbing game between nazi and soviet commanders (and 2 polish outside their own territory???).
Please bring it back to something more akind to what it was back then : nazi troops on the left (and some from the north)., polish troops at the border and center..and (only at later stage) soviet troops from the east.

:-s
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby lt_oddball on Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:54 am

ah..so it's the funny eagle in the center that is the crux for attacking otzher commanders (who the hell is that tchec commander in the south??). Not immediately clear in the legend.

Now I see what the gameconept is..hmmm, nay.
It is very hard to race from a commander to the Warschau center..then you'd supposed to have enough resources left to attack a commander's heart position (bulking with troops of course)..IF the first is lucky to succeed to eliminate one other commander, he has almost NO RESOURCES left,and a THIRD commander throws in his troops on warschau and knocks out the first... and so it goes like a chain reaction.
Not nice game play..


Why not this idea:

Three (or four) Nazi commanders starting from Germany.. and four Polish commanders INSIDE Poland.

Soviet commanders/armies are neutral.

Once a Nazi player reaches the east side of the map (a particular territory) that territory (in his colour) gets +2 auto troops (if player controls nazi_A and Soviet_b then +2...so not for the 'polish' players).
Like checkers..you reach the other side of the board and you get a bonus checker.
This simulates the effect that soviet forces would not start to invade before it was clear that the nazis would totally win poland.
The downside is that on this map the nazi and soviet troops have the same colour of player...
but effectively the poles fought againt the nazis and soviets..the soviets didnot fight the nazis.
The soviet troops acted like an accessory to the nazis..really..
So i think that is better for this particular 1939 map.

ONLY Having/or keeping Warzau should mean a relatively immense bonus...the poles keeping it means "motivation/spirit" (= bonustroops in warzau), for the nazi player having warzau means they "win", lifted spirit, time for reorganisation for final mopping up actions (= bonustroops at the starting position..but much less).
Finding the right balance in this bonus for each player is the trick.

Something like that.
:mrgreen:
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby Bootsmann Rommel on Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:19 pm

Great map, would love to see it being played, but I think you should add somemore territory's in Russia, seems to be a bit limited... But other then that love the map and the idea ! :D
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V4- 7/2/09

Postby samuelc812 on Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:53 am

Changes:
  • Had to restart from scratch as the PSD stopped working :(
  • Changed Gameplay a little to make it more balanced:
    • Aircraft can only bombard tanks so it is not such a dash to the middle.
    • The Polish Commanders within Poland now get a +3 auto-deploy if held.
    • And The P.A.F (Polish Air-Force) in the centre is the only way to attack another commander, and also receives a +5 bonus if held.
    • In doing this i have also made it so every player can make it to the P.A.F within 2 moves if they wanted to, and everyone has an equal chance to get a commander within Poland. Also by doing this it has made venturing into the centre more appealing.
    • I have limited the one-way attacks out of each commander.



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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V4- 7/2/09

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:39 am

Just a question, so please don't freak out on me here, but can you "get away with" the swastika? I think there is a law in Germany forbiding anything Nazi...
In fact, I remember that the board game RISK was banned there until the object of the game was changed to "liberating the world."
I like the look and dull colors though. The map itself is beautiful.
What did I miss witht he commanders? You can only attack out from them now, and bombard them, correct?
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V4- 7/2/09

Postby cairnswk on Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:05 am

Can this map be moved up to advanced Drafts at least please.
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V4- 7/2/09

Postby samuelc812 on Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:30 pm

cairnswk wrote:Can this map be moved up to advanced Drafts at least please.


Please MrBenn :)
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V4- 7/2/09

Postby samuelc812 on Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:33 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Just a question, so please don't freak out on me here, but can you "get away with" the swastika? I think there is a law in Germany forbiding anything Nazi...


We're not in Germany so i doubt it matters ;)

Juan_Bottom wrote:I like the look and dull colors though. The map itself is beautiful.
What did I miss witht he commanders? You can only attack out from them now, and bombard them, correct?


Correct :)
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V4- 7/2/09

Postby samuelc812 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:25 pm

Bumped :)
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby lt_oddball on Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:33 am

you complained that there wasn't enough comments ?
So where are the answers on these of a couple of days ago..? :?:


lt_oddball wrote:It the legend it isnot explained how commanders outside polish borders can be attacked ..

How can there be one victor if every player keeps his commander ?????


And why so strong +3 autodeployment..too much. :sick:

And this plane bombarding any place in poland..nay-nay too much emphasis on the airfields.
better use an idea I had before; separate airdomination "fields"; a string of 6 territories at the side or top of the map..each one linearly attcking the next (for dominance position) and each one capable of bombarding a fixed set of ground territories (f.e. marked with "a", the next "b"). The more airdominance fields you have , the more airdominance you have..

Your gameconcept makes it this a grabbing game between nazi and soviet commanders (and 2 polish outside their own territory???).
Please bring it back to something more akind to what it was back then : nazi troops on the left (and some from the north)., polish troops at the border and center..and (only at later stage) soviet troops from the east.

:-s

and

ah..so it's the funny eagle in the center that is the crux for attacking otzher commanders (who the hell is that tchec commander in the south??). Not immediately clear in the legend.

Now I see what the gameconept is..hmmm, nay.
It is very hard to race from a commander to the Warschau center..then you'd supposed to have enough resources left to attack a commander's heart position (bulking with troops of course)..IF the first is lucky to succeed to eliminate one other commander, he has almost NO RESOURCES left,and a THIRD commander throws in his troops on warschau and knocks out the first... and so it goes like a chain reaction.
Not nice game play..


Why not this idea:

Three (or four) Nazi commanders starting from Germany.. and four Polish commanders INSIDE Poland.

Soviet commanders/armies are neutral.

Once a Nazi player reaches the east side of the map (a particular territory) that territory (in his colour) gets +2 auto troops (if player controls nazi_A and Soviet_b then +2...so not for the 'polish' players).
Like checkers..you reach the other side of the board and you get a bonus checker.
This simulates the effect that soviet forces would not start to invade before it was clear that the nazis would totally win poland.
The downside is that on this map the nazi and soviet troops have the same colour of player...
but effectively the poles fought againt the nazis and soviets..the soviets didnot fight the nazis.
The soviet troops acted like an accessory to the nazis..really..
So i think that is better for this particular 1939 map.

ONLY Having/or keeping Warzau should mean a relatively immense bonus...the poles keeping it means "motivation/spirit" (= bonustroops in warzau), for the nazi player having warzau means they "win", lifted spirit, time for reorganisation for final mopping up actions (= bonustroops at the starting position..but much less).
Finding the right balance in this bonus for each player is the trick.

Something like that.
:mrgreen:
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor ulli.
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V3- 27/1/09

Postby samuelc812 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:51 pm

lt_oddball wrote:you complained that there wasn't enough comments?


When did i complain? I simply bumped the thread.


lt_oddball wrote:It the legend it is not explained how commanders outside polish borders can be attacked ..

How can there be one victor if every player keeps his commander ?????


If you look carefully it is explained, the Polish Air-Force Symbol in the centre of poland can bombard commanders outside Poland.

lt_oddball wrote:And why so strong +3 autodeployment..too much. :sick:


That's not that strong, there are hardly any bonuses compared to a normal map, so +3 i think suits the commanders well.

lt_oddball wrote:And this plane bombarding any place in poland..nay-nay too much emphasis on the airfields.
better use an idea I had before; separate airdomination "fields"; a string of 6 territories at the side or top of the map..each one linearly attcking the next (for dominance position) and each one capable of bombarding a fixed set of ground territories (f.e. marked with "a", the next "b"). The more airdominance fields you have , the more airdominance you have..


I don't want to make this map any more complicated than it has to be, adding anymore things i am afraid it would make the map to crowded than it already is. I have restricted the planes attacking power, by restricting them to only be able to attack Tanks.

lt_oddball wrote:Your gameconcept makes it this a grabbing game between nazi and soviet commanders (and 2 polish outside their own territory???).
Please bring it back to something more akind to what it was back then : nazi troops on the left (and some from the north)., polish troops at the border and center..and (only at later stage) soviet troops from the east.

:-s


This map does not depict the very beginning of the Invasion, it is depicting the invasion after it has mostly happened and when Nazi and Soviet forces we're occupying the entirety of Poland. the Polish territories outside Poland, are representative of Polish forces retreating to the South-East once the Soviets began to invade.

lt_oddball wrote:ah..so it's the funny eagle in the center that is the crux for attacking otzher commanders (who the hell is that tchec commander in the south??). Not immediately clear in the legend.


The "funny" eagle as you put it, is the symbol of the Polish Air-Force, and it represents the remaining air-force, and the rebellion. The Polish Commander outside of Poland, represents the retreating portion of the Polish Army, they are trying to get back into Poland and retake their country.

lt_oddball wrote:Now I see what the gameconept is..hmmm, nay(=no?).
It is very hard to race from a commander to the Warschau center..then you'd supposed to have enough resources left to attack a commander's heart position (bulking with troops of course)..IF the first is lucky to succeed to eliminate one other commander, he has almost NO RESOURCES left,and a THIRD commander throws in his troops on warschau and knocks out the first... and so it goes like a chain reaction.
Not nice game play..


I can say that whoever goes for the centre position on the first turn would have to be out of their mind. We can always increase the neutrals on that position to something like 10 to make it harder to attain in the first or second turns.

lt_oddball wrote:Why not this idea:

Three (or four) Nazi commanders starting from Germany.. and four Polish commanders INSIDE Poland.

Soviet commanders/armies are neutral.


The whole point is the invasion of Poland, the aim shouldn't be to get the Soviet commanders, the aim should be to invade poland, and capture the Polish commanders, hence why they are neutral. Then there is also the way for Poland to get rescued by taking the centre eagle and attacking the enemy commanders.

lt_oddball wrote:Once a Nazi player reaches the east side of the map (a particular territory) that territory (in his colour) gets +2 auto troops (if player controls nazi_A and Soviet_b then +2...so not for the 'polish' players).
Like checkers..you reach the other side of the board and you get a bonus checker.
This simulates the effect that soviet forces would not start to invade before it was clear that the nazis would totally win poland.
The downside is that on this map the nazi and soviet troops have the same colour of player...
but effectively the poles fought againt the nazis and soviets..the soviets didnot fight the nazis.
The soviet troops acted like an accessory to the nazis..really..
So i think that is better for this particular 1939 map.


Well this isn't really checkers, and again this is the invasion of Poland not the race to the other side of Poland and then the Soviets attack? And the Germans and Soviets actually did fight ;)

Wikipedia wrote:Germany captured the Soviet-occupied areas of Poland when it invaded the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941, and lost the territory in 1944 to an advancing Red Army


lt_oddball wrote:ONLY Having/or keeping Warzau should mean a relatively immense bonus...the poles keeping it means "motivation/spirit" (= bonustroops in warzau), for the nazi player having warzau means they "win", lifted spirit, time for reorganisation for final mopping up actions (= bonustroops at the starting position..but much less).
Finding the right balance in this bonus for each player is the trick.


I might lower the auto-deploy on the starting positions to +2, as well as the Polish Commanders within Poland, Holding the Polish Air-Force gett's a +5 bonus which is pretty immense.

Thanks for commenting ;)
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V4- 7/2/09

Postby miniwally on Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:47 pm

wasn't poland the area france and britain defended as they knew germany were going to be attacked net so i suggest adding maybe a french and british commander it's a possible idea
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V4- 7/2/09

Postby samuelc812 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:51 am

That was after the initial invasion by Germany and the Soviet's which is what this map depicts ;)
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Re: WWII: The Invasion of Poland -V4- 7/2/09

Postby MrBenn on Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:59 am

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