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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby Elegarth on Tue May 05, 2009 5:43 pm

No problem. I have lived here for 25 years so... :D
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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby Incandenza on Tue May 05, 2009 7:15 pm

lgoasklucyl wrote:-This still definitely applies as an option if others show interest! Two region bonuses can be a pain in the ass, and three may be the solution we need. Gotta see if anyone else feels it's the way to go or not :)


I can definitely get on board with adding a non-border terit to el sal.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby oaktown on Wed May 06, 2009 1:14 am

my two cents...

I see some talk of adding a territory to guatemala to "restore" the map to 32 territories, but I think it should be pointed out that the map currently has 33 nterritories. We began with 32, but added the sea routes, then dropped a territory in Costa Rica. 33. And just in case I counted them.

I'm personally quite comfortable with El Salvador having just two territories. When we hashed this out month ago the logic was that once you secure the country it's not exactly as if you will take over the map. A +1 isn't devastating, there is no easy expansion from El Salvador, and you're sure to have somebody next to you ready to take you out right quick. Personally if I started there in a game I might grab the bonus, but then defend it minimally and use my armies elsewhere. Even Belize is a better start because you can expand into Guatemala and minimize your borders.

There are possible fixes other than adding a territory. We could expand to eight starting positions, but the trouble with this is that it actually increases the chances of dropping El Salvador in 1v1 games. A better solution would be to scrap the starting territories and just start one of the El Salvador territories neutral; with 33 terits there is going to be at least one neutral in 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 player games anyway. This would bring the map back to the original 32, which means that in 1v1 and 3 player games a player needs two takes, not just one, to get up to 12 territories and that one extra army - a bonus effect. As a neutral territory the player who starts there would have to ask himself if it's worth a +1 bonus to waste his first turn hitting neutral armies.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed May 06, 2009 2:19 pm

I'd be fine with El Salvador starting neutral---but I kind of like the chance of getting lucky drop/taking out a player's troops if I've got troops in the adjacent territory.


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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby lgoasklucyl on Wed May 06, 2009 2:55 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:I'd be fine with El Salvador starting neutral---but I kind of like the chance of getting lucky drop/taking out a player's troops if I've got troops in the adjacent territory.


--Andy


Would starting all of El Salvador neutral solve anything? That would just result in Belize being a far more favorable bonus.

Strategy-wise, good team players are far more likely to go for the three terit bonus if it means taking another players troops out than a 2 territ, neutral bonus where they could lose troops taking no one elses.

I think if anything is to be done it should be the third, non-border territory personally.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed May 06, 2009 3:00 pm

What if the sea route was neutral? I'd like to see a neutral free mainland.


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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby Incandenza on Wed May 06, 2009 3:40 pm

If given the choice, I'd rather see A) a 3-terit el sal or B) a 2-terit el sal with 1 neutral, than a neutral in one of the sea lanes...
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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby lgoasklucyl on Wed May 06, 2009 4:30 pm

Incandenza wrote:If given the choice, I'd rather see A) a 3-terit el sal or B) a 2-terit el sal with 1 neutral, than a neutral in one of the sea lanes...


I personally favor option a very, VERY highly in this situation.

I'm telling everyone now- if one of the territs in a two territ bonus starts neutral it will rarely be used. If anything is neutral in a bonus, it should grant at least an extra +1 to merit being grabbed by an experienced team player.

The only thing I wouldn't mind seeing neutral would be the sea routes, as at least those may NEED to be held to move somewhere.

Maybe I'll poll it with the next version- people LOVE polls :lol:
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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby iancanton on Thu May 07, 2009 5:22 pm

lgoasklucyl wrote:I'm telling everyone now- if one of the territs in a two territ bonus starts neutral it will rarely be used. If anything is neutral in a bonus, it should grant at least an extra +1 to merit being grabbed by an experienced team player.

i tend to agree. el salvador has to be at least a +2 bonus, whether it has 3 regions (with start positions) or 2 regions (with starting neutrals on 1 region). aesthetically, i prefer a 3-region el salvador.

ian. :)
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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu May 07, 2009 6:53 pm

lgoasklucyl wrote:I'm telling everyone now- if one of the territs in a two territ bonus starts neutral it will rarely be used. If anything is neutral in a bonus, it should grant at least an extra +1 to merit being grabbed by an experienced team player.


Agreed with lgoasklucyl wholeheartedly.


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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Gameplay Poll!!!!!)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Thu May 07, 2009 7:05 pm

Thanks Ian and Andy for the support- I added the poll to see what everyone else thinks (we all know people love polls here in the foundry :lol: ).

Vote everyone!

I have to huge exams tomorrow, so I won't be pouring out a new version probably until early next week (a bunch of commencement coverage for the paper this weekend/moving out and whatnot), but would like to include this gameplay change (if supported) in version 9 =)

Thanks!
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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby oaktown on Thu May 14, 2009 12:57 am

lgoasklucyl wrote:I'm telling everyone now- if one of the territs in a two territ bonus starts neutral it will rarely be used. If anything is neutral in a bonus, it should grant at least an extra +1 to merit being grabbed by an experienced team player.

I've played the Berlin map quite a lot, and the neutral airfields are almost always taken... and those are a +1 deployed to the territories, which is not nearly as beneficial as a traditional +1 bonus. If I were to drop Usultan and three neutrals stood between me and a quick bonus on a small map, I'd hit it - especially if i had one of the three territories surrounding from which I could bring in reinforcements.

I should also note that in 1v1 games (which is really where the problems lie) there will be 11 neutrals on the board regardless of whether or not we predetermine where one of them will go.

AndyDufresne wrote:I'd be fine with El Salvador starting neutral---but I kind of like the chance of getting lucky drop/taking out a player's troops if I've got troops in the adjacent territory.

Since we've gone starting-bonus-probability crazy in the past two weeks (maybe we should worry about this stuff just a bit less?) there's about a 10% chance of somebody starting with El Salvador in a 1v1 or 3 player game, and about a 3% chance of somebody starting with the canal/shipping lane bonus. I'd prefer not to see the ships go neutral because 33 (or even 32) makes for nice starts; 31 not so much.

10% is a bit high, and folks hate neutrals. Alternatively, we can code just two starting positions for 1v1 games to keep one player from dropping both. Coding just two start positions won't change the # of starting territories/player - it'll remain 11 territories each. There would be no effect on larger games, but in larger games it's less of an issue - its much harder to hold a bonus against two (or more) enemies than against one, and the odds of dropping it go down - about 5% with 4 players, less than 3% with five players, etc.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Poll not working-Discuss gameplay!!)

Postby MrBenn on Tue May 26, 2009 5:48 pm

Fly to El Salvador,
I don't know why, and I don't know what for;
I've seen the picture for myself.

Where did that label go?
I tried it out but it didn't work, so
I'll choose the picture for myself.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby iancanton on Thu May 28, 2009 3:17 pm

perhaps belmopan region ought to be renamed belize city. belmopan is the capital, but belize city is ten times the size.

http://www.belizediscover.com/Belmopan.htm
http://www.belizediscover.com/BelizeCity.htm

rename guatemala region as guatemala city to distinguish it from the bonus zone of that name.

ian. :)
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby lostatlimbo on Thu May 28, 2009 9:36 pm

having just returned from an extended trip through parts of Central America, i was glad to see that this map is progressing so well.

one thing stands out to me - Quiche (in Guatemala) isn't really indicative of that region. I think what you are looking for is "Las Verapaces" - the proper name for the region (which is home to Semuc Champey - a beautiful national landmark).

iancanton wrote:my guatamala geography isn't good enough! the country seems to be one big city with lots of little villages. maybe maritovw might have an idea for an extra region if u decide that u want to do this?


other than the name change above, the regions are fairly accurate. the only thing i see missing is the Pacific slope. on the map, it would cut Xela in half and take a chunk of Guatemala City too. geographically, this is a very different region from elsewhere in the country as the highlands quickly drop off to the Pacific Ocean.

HOWEVER...

iancanton wrote:perhaps belmopan region ought to be renamed belize city. belmopan is the capital, but belize city is ten times the size.


Belize is much more lacking. rather than renaming Belmopan to Belize City, there should be 4 regions - the Cayes to the east, Orange Walk in the north, Belize City in the middle and Cayo in the south.

most of southern belize is thick, uninhabited jungle. to call that whole region either Belmopan or Belize City is misrepresenting half the country. the road connecting those two cities essentially splits the country in half and neither of them are anywhere near the Izabal region of Guatemala.

if you make some space in the middle and make they Cayes connect only to Orange Walk and the new Belize City territory, you'll have it just right and get that extra territory you're looking for.

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Mock up for visual reference

and a real Belize map that better illustrates my point
http://www.moon.com/files/map-images/bel_00_Belize.jpg

maritovw wrote:also, i'm from Guatemala and "Xela" is just a short name for a city named "Xelajú", so i think you should rename that territory (i mentioned this a long time ago, but it was never addressed)...


this perplexes me. the actual name of Xela is actually Quetzaltenango. Xelaju is the old Mayan name for the city, but Xela is the primary name used both locally and in reference. if you're going to shorten it from its proper name, why not use the more common, well-recognized nickname?
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby iancanton on Sat May 30, 2009 5:05 am

lostatlimbo wrote:the only thing i see missing is the Pacific slope. on the map, it would cut Xela in half and take a chunk of Guatemala City too. geographically, this is a very different region from elsewhere in the country as the highlands quickly drop off to the Pacific Ocean.

the pacific slope is well-represented by a new coastal region as outlined above. it can be called either puerto san josé (after a port town) or escuintla (puerto san josé's department). this leaves guatemala city inland, where it's supposed to be, without a coastline.

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to make nicaragua easier to hold, RAAN and RAAS can be merged into a single region called zelaya (this was the name of the combined region before 1988).

The two autonomous Atlantic Regions formed, till a few years ago, the big Zelaya department.

http://www.nicatour.net/en/Nicaragua/atlantic-coast.cfm

at the same time, i propose that managua connects to rio san juan along the south shore of lake nicaragua; u can just about see from the map below that the lake is, in fact, wholly within the nicaraguan perimeter, along with a very narrow strip of land on the south shore. once this is done, all nicaraguan border regions will be adjacent to two others, which will aid defence, especially in adjacent forts games.

Image

the defence of nicaragua can additionally be bolstered if we remove the port symbol from rio san juan.

lostatlimbo wrote:Belize is much more lacking. rather than renaming Belmopan to Belize City, there should be 4 regions - the Cayes to the east, Orange Walk in the north, Belize City in the middle and Cayo in the south.

Image

i like this arrangement though, the more i look at it, the more i think that we can lose the cayes (which appear to be far too prominent when compared with their real size) completely and have three mainland regions in belize instead of two mainland regions plus the cayes. compared with costa rica, i think belize cannot justify having four regions.

ian. :)
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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Poll not working-Discuss gameplay!!)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Sat May 30, 2009 11:47 am

I kind of like the four territ +2 for Belize, in the same way I like the bonus n Australia.

How many people are on board with adding a territ to Belize?

How many for adding a territ in El Salvadador?

Making something neutral? If so, what?

Combing RAAS and RAAN?

Personally, I like everything besides making something neutral.

I especially like combining RAAS and RAAN because I hate acronyms for territ names. Especially ones in all caps :roll:
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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Poll not working-Discuss gameplay!!)

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:16 pm

I also dislike abbrevs---so I'd lean towards the combintion of the two regions---and I also dislike the idea of neutrals.


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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Poll not working-Discuss gameplay!!)

Postby MrBenn on Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:44 pm

lgoasklucyl wrote:I kind of like the four territ +2 for Belize, in the same way I like the bonus n Australia.

How many people are on board with adding a territ to Belize?

How many for adding a territ in El Salvadador?

Making something neutral? If so, what?

Combing RAAS and RAAN?

Personally, I like everything besides making something neutral.

I especially like combining RAAS and RAAN because I hate acronyms for territ names. Especially ones in all caps :roll:

Go with what your heart is telling you ;-)
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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Poll not working-Discuss gameplay!!)

Postby oaktown on Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:27 pm

lgoasklucyl wrote:I kind of like the four territ +2 for Belize, in the same way I like the bonus n Australia.

How many people are on board with adding a territ to Belize?

How many for adding a territ in El Salvadador?

Personally, I like keeping those two countries on the smaller side. Making Belize a four territory region makes it a +2, which throws the balance of power up north a bit. Unlike Australia, which is a +2 with one big, messy bordering region, from Belize you can expand into a relatively easy-to-hold region and then hold a total bonus of +5 with only two borders. Down south you need to hold four borders for the +5, and you're being attacked from three different directions.

I can live with El Salvador being a three territory region, as it solves the question of how to start it. But geographically it is such a small region that I think this creates visual problems. The map you've been making updates to is the large, and adding a territory in there will already be a bit cramped... reduce the map size 25% and you've got a challenge.

Want to point out that adding territories to Belize and El Salvador takes some of the early emphasis off of the land and onto the water. If El Salvador is a three terit +1 and Belize has four terits, the Sea Route/Canal bonus becomes the most attractive start because it is the easiest to pick up, the easiest to fort reinforcements into, and it offers the best options for expansion.

lgoasklucyl wrote:Making something neutral? If so, what?

I agree that to avoid starting neutrals is generally the preferred option. One of the two El Salvador regions would be the most logical neutral start to avoid the possibility of dropping the bonus from the start, but coding them as two start positions would be a less invasive way to solve the problem in 1v1s.

lgoasklucyl wrote:Combining RAAS and RAAN?

I especially like combining RAAS and RAAN because I hate acronyms for territ names. Especially ones in all caps :roll:

And calling them what? RAAS/RAAN? RAAS and RAAN are the two largest political departments in the country (numbers 16 and 17 below) so combining them just gives you one really big territory - in fact, the two departments together make up over 50% of the country's land mass, so half of the region would be one large territory while the other half would be five.

If it's just the acronyms that people don't like we can work with that; we can name them after the regional capitals - Bilwi in the north and Bluefields in the south - or we can use part of the regional names: Atlantico Norte and Atlantico Sur.

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Maybe I'm taking this too personally since I started working on the gameplay for this map nine months ago, but the suggested changes to the regions do not, in my opinion, make the gameplay better. They just make it different, and they require us to go back and rethink everything else about how the map works.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Poll not working-Discuss gameplay!!)

Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:11 pm

If the above game play changes do not make it better, and are just an alternate additions, it may be better not to go through the game play figuring once again, if it isn't broke.

I like the changing of the acronymns to Atlantico, if that is consistent with the other naming mechanics.


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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Poll not working-Discuss gameplay!!)

Postby Teflon Kris on Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:19 pm

Agreeing with the above -

Gameplay amendments in order of preference:

1. Coded start positions in the small bonus areas (esp. El Salvador)

2. Neutrals

3. Additional territories

If additional territories aren't a geographical necessity then, as oak points out, they would be more hassle than they are worth (given your no. of territories). Coded starts would be preferable to neutrals - they may sound a bit more complex in terms of xml but there's plenty of help available from friendly foundry folk.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Poll not working-Discuss gameplay!!)

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:30 pm

If you do stick with 3 territs for Belize, I still think you need to make it Orange Walk, Cayo and Belize City and drop the Cayes as ian suggested OR combine Belize City and the Cayes into one territ (BC & Cayes?).

The latter suggestion would not change your current gameplay at all, but would be much more geographically and conceptually accurate - as anyone visiting the Cayes typically goes through Belize City.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Poll not working-Discuss gameplay!!)

Postby oaktown on Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:00 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:If you do stick with 3 territs for Belize, I still think you need to make it Orange Walk, Cayo and Belize City and drop the Cayes as ian suggested OR combine Belize City and the Cayes into one territ (BC & Cayes?).

making the Cayes its own territory works nicely from a visual point of view, but making it a combined islands/capital territory wouldn't have any impact on the play.

As for coding start positions, its as good as done. On this map it is no easier/harder than a neutral start.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 (Poll not working-Discuss gameplay!!)

Postby iancanton on Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:13 pm

oaktown wrote:I can live with El Salvador being a three territory region, as it solves the question of how to start it. But geographically it is such a small region that I think this creates visual problems. The map you've been making updates to is the large, and adding a territory in there will already be a bit cramped... reduce the map size 25% and you've got a challenge.

if el salvador has 3 regions, then the way to avoid a cramped look is obvious: move the name for san salvador into the ocean.

oaktown wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:Making something neutral? If so, what?

I agree that to avoid starting neutrals is generally the preferred option. One of the two El Salvador regions would be the most logical neutral start to avoid the possibility of dropping the bonus from the start, but coding them as two start positions would be a less invasive way to solve the problem in 1v1s.

keeping el salvador at 2 regions creates unnecessary difficulties because u do need a neutral in that case. using 2 start positions instead of a neutral means that u must let player 1 have a near-10% chance of dropping one of the four small bonuses in a 2v2 game. we can accept this on an otherwise-worthy map where the geography leaves no reasonable alternative. here, we do have good alternatives.

oaktown wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:Combining RAAS and RAAN?

I especially like combining RAAS and RAAN because I hate acronyms for territ names. Especially ones in all caps :roll:

And calling them what? RAAS/RAAN? RAAS and RAAN are the two largest political departments in the country (numbers 16 and 17 below) so combining them just gives you one really big territory - in fact, the two departments together make up over 50% of the country's land mass, so half of the region would be one large territory while the other half would be five.

zelaya was this region's name before 1988, when it was split into two.
iancanton wrote:The two autonomous Atlantic Regions formed, till a few years ago, the big Zelaya department.

http://www.nicatour.net/en/Nicaragua/atlantic-coast.cfm

zelaya might well make up over 50% of nicaragua's area, but that isn't how it's drawn on our map, where it's certainly less than 50%. it is also a relatively undeveloped region that has less than one-sixth of the total population of the country, so one out of six regions isn't inappropriate.

oaktown wrote:Maybe I'm taking this too personally since I started working on the gameplay for this map nine months ago, but the suggested changes to the regions do not, in my opinion, make the gameplay better.

it's always useful to know what everyone is thinking. i believe making nicaragua smaller, linking together all of its border regions (just as sully800 did to the asia bonus zone in world cities before he adopted 100% the gameplay of classic) and possibly removing its port symbol will indeed improve the gameplay by letting the middle of the map be a credible base for a player.

ian. :)
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