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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby jefjef on Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:10 pm

.. :D you are a master game/map maker....... I'm only trying to help :( Now could you move that bunkerhill line to top right corner of R.I. ? hahahahahaha But seriously you could float the boston ship up a smidgeon to relieve conjestion if it seems too busy...... You left out bonus listing for 3 states.. was that your intent? You could make the 1st bonus avail after having 3 states.. WOW... battlefield for sure!
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:28 pm

I think that it might be alright with the ship and all that. We'll see what others say about it, but I think it should be good. That is unless I change my mind later on down the line. But yeah, thanks for the help, I'm glad someone can keep up with the quick crits ont he map while I'm still in the mood to edit it.

But yeah, I left the holding 3 colonies out because I didn't want someone to land three of the single terr. colonies and and get something like 3-4 men. Still working out the specific numbers of it, but this is how the bonuses will be determined.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby jefjef on Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:00 pm

One last thought on this. (Yeah right) What about Shawnee tert connecting to N Georgia? It would make the map more fluid and Georgia more threatened. (Georgia is kinda a sheltered area) and S Carolina also has a ship connection to it. And I just don't see the 2 to 4 state bonus jump. With the additional terts it is for sure harder to land states on the drop. Could the bonus structure be a bit light? Maybe take into account the tert #s for each colony. Make the larger colonies worth more. Guess ya really need to do some simulated play. 5 Stars! Looks like your pretty well there!
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:16 am

You make a good point on the Indian terr attack to Georgia as S Carolina already has a ship. I'll make the change and include it in the next update.

As for downplaying the southern bonus, much of the war did not take place in the South, not to say none, and I think the map should reflect this aspect. Say, if you did capture up to Virginia, defending at Baltimore, Appalachia and Viriginia capes, you'd have a bonus of 1 for colonies and 18 terrs held, so 6 men traditional deployment, at a total of 7 deploy. Then with easy aquisitions of Delaware and Maryland to bring the bonus up to 4 men. Right after is another great defense point of Philadelphia, Delaware and Virginia Capes which should land you the game at 5 bonus men plus 7 regular deployment (The defense at best putting up 10 men total).

Doing the same thing at Philie, Brooklyn Heights and Delaware you land 11 men but still have a long way to go, giving the South a chance to fight, but the advantage goes to the North (which were the more valuable territories anyway).

What I just noticed is that Philadelphia is going to be a hotly contested territory, as it should be as it was the capitol at the time.

So yeah, in summation, I think the South will be quite powerful given its bottleneck points and should yield many men given its size rather than colonial bonus. But the North will be the more hotly fought over areas, as it was in 1775-83
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby jefjef on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:23 am

Hello again, I. HELIX. A graphics thing. Could you maybe put a minute man & red coat on the map? Or even flags. Maybe have the bonus graph superimposed over them. :D.. Road Island deploy spot is in the sea & name in the state borders. Would it work if you flippy flopped em around?
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:38 am

My first look at the map (my bad I know – it totally skipped from my eyes).

I've tried to read all the past posts just to keep in touch with the latest updates. Something might have missed me though.

Do you gain bonus by having groups of colonies right?
Let’s say: if you own Georgia and South Carolina you’ll have a bonus of 1 soldier.

I’m asking because in your previous post you said that someone owning the south up to Baltimore-Appalachia-Virginia Capes would have a bonus of 1 (in my math it should be 3 - Georgia + South Carolina + N Carolina + Virginia = 4 colonies) but I Probably got everything wrong..... :(

I like the visual style – straight and simple. Just one small remark – I’d do the artwork in the bonus legend to make it more coherent with the upper legend. It seems that graphically it’s a bit lost down there.

Grat work! - I love historic maps :)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby CharruaWarrior on Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:01 pm

I like the idea that bonuses go by how many colonies you control. Holding Georgia will give you the same amount of armies as holding Delaware. Great map I'll be waiting to play it. My first comment by the way. :)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:52 am

Kabanellas - Yeah, the bit witht he Batlimore ect i was just pointing out the bottleneck point on the map and speculating how it might work out. But the Bonus structure is correct, the bonus you receive is based on how many actual colonies you hold. Delaware is worth as much as Georgia, ect. Still working out the numbers and details, but that's the inten so far.

Thanks CharruaWarrior for commenting, I'm glad that the bonus structure is gaining support, I think it should be the way forward for this map.

Question to Foundry mods: What else do I need before this map hits the main foundry?
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby TaCktiX on Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:16 am

Absolutely nothing, I've just hit a spate of burn-out. Go get 'em in the Foundry.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Kabanellas on Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:31 am

Ok, got it right then :)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D]Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:53 pm

Ok great, my first post in the Main Foundry!

Basically I want to steer the discussion towards the gameplay aspect and then I will tackle the graphics.

As it stands at the moment:

39 Territories
Indian Territories start at 2 and revert to 2 after each round.
The bonus structure will be according to the number of colones held, however, the numbers and ratio need to be discussed.

Borders look good to me at them moment, however the tri-border at New York, Long Island and Fort Lee needs to be addressed.

There's a few bottle neck points but they give some advantage to a player that starts in the South, I think, and should be kept as is.

Any thoughts and crits on gameplay are appreciated.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby jefjef on Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:44 pm

37 terts + 2 killer neutrals. You may want to consider coding Rhode Island or better yet Conn. to always start as a Neutral. Gives you 36 terts for drops & reduces chance of bonus on the drop. I still like either adding bonus for 3 colonies or starting bonuses at 3 colonies held. Great work.. Looking forward to it. 5 stars for sure!
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:21 pm

Ok.. game-play it is:

Let’s see, imo one starting in the North gets an advantage from someone starting in the South, and it seems to me that people will definitely tend to occupy the north regions.

The South will always be hard to secure. If I take Georgia and S Carolina I’ll be stuck with 3 borders even if I move up to Guildford – for an income of 1 troop...... pretty short, maybe. On the other side, in the middle, I could secure N. Carolina up to Baltimore and Delaware making an income of 3 troops for 1 border more (4)....

In the North, you can start from Massachusetts and fight your way down to Bunker Hill-Connecticut, establishing a perimeter with 3 borders (B.H. – Connecticut – Massachusetts) receiving an income of 3 troops – fairly good comparing with the south regions. The evolution will be fast from here. Securing Philly and Brooklyn Heights will be a flash. (5 troops for 3 borders)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:42 am

The balance seems pretty good, I can see starting at just about any point on the map and finding a way to gain and hold a 4 colony bonus. I have a bit of a concern about the New York colony. It is going to be a crossroads region moving from New England into the Mid-Atlantic and visa versa. Of all the colonies, New York will be the most difficult to gain control of and possibly add to a bonus. Perhaps a little bit of redrawing of borders to make New York a little easier to hold?
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:54 am

...Concluding my analysis – I don’t think that it’s necessarily bad to have a slightly better position in a map. That’s part of life. :)
If players start fighting between themselves for better territories will only give space for some other guy to grow in the less appealing ones.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:50 am

As for coding RI and Conn. to start neutral... sounds like a good idea. I think maybe a starting neutral 2 would be good. Maybe start New Hampshire as a neutral as well... or add another terr. (seems like there might be room). That way no one lands the bonus but its not too hard to get it; you've got the option of attacking a neutral for the bonus or going for someone else's terr. I guess it depends on your favored strategy.

Obviously, like you guys have pointed out, the North is going to be the hotspot to hold. But I think you guys are saying that it won't be too easy to hold unless your opponent(s) has no idea what he's doing. Which i agree with. Assuming you do hold the north down to Baltimore or Phillie then you've pretty much got the game with your bonus deployment... but at the same time you hold most the terrs. on the map. So if it were any other similar map and you held this many terrs. the same result would happen.

I'm starting to wonder if I readjust the ship bonus there might be some smaller bonuses to get in the south. For example: Break it into two groups of two and reward holding two ships instead of four. Or simply reward holding two ships and leaving the connections the same.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:00 am

OK, just did a little work on this map and made some gameplay changes.

Here's what's changed:

Connection to Georgia instead of S. Carolina

Hold two ships for a bonus of two.

I removed the ship connection between Boston and Brooklyn Heights, which should make that bonus of two a little harder to get. At the same time, an easily attainable bonus is now in the South, plus it maintains the connection to the north keeping the advantage of holding the ships. Everyone's thoughts on the South getting an easier bonus are appreciated.

I'm pretty much sold on starting RI and Conn at a neutral 2.

New Hampshire has been divided into two territories, Coos and Exeter (Which is where I live in England! but Exeter in the US was important to the signing of the Declaration of Independence).

So yeah, not sure about pulling the connection between Boston and Brooklyn Heights... everyone's thoughts on that are appreciated.

One other possibility that I'm entertaining is that Each ship gives a bonus of 1 or upping the bonus to 3 for two ships... Thoughts?

Still haven't figured out what I'm going to do about the connection to Long Island... would dotted lines look too out of place? Would they even fit? I'm considering fudging it and moving the whole island a tad North so its a little more obvious that it connects to New York and not Fort Lee... or I could leave it and say Fort Lee, New York and Long Island all connect at a three way border. Do you guys assume this already when you look at the map? Maybe it doesn't need clarification...

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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:01 pm

I really don’t think that you should break that connection (Boston - B.H.) ... it makes perfect sense that all navy could connect each other, especially if you keep the bonus when owning pairs of ships. As for the ships bonus if you go for 1 per ship, I’d make them auto-deployable.

As for the connection between NY and Long Island, this is your doubt I guess, I pretty much instinctively thought that they connect... it seems pretty obvious that the borders touch each other, though they do it timidly. I wouldn’t go for the dots, let them remain for the navy.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby jefjef on Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:39 pm

Hello Helix! Good to neutral those two & adding that tert. Ship connects look fine. No prob seeing them.. as far as ships how about a 1 bonus for holding the ship & the tert it connects too. (ship & it's landing point). This maps ready as far as I'm concerned. And with the 2 colonies neutral (I would code em as 3 strength) Ya should add the bonus for holding 3 colonies also. Also I'd leave all ships conncted.. It is a navy after all & boats float.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:51 am

How about 1 more ship(French) in between BH and VA Capes that breaks the British shipping up. The French Navy was involved in the war, and was involved in the decisive victory at Yorktown. 5 ships, 3 for a bonus. Have the French Navy not be connected to the land. Definitely reconnect Boston and BH.

Otherwise I think you're looking good, the neutrals on the single colonies will prevent someone dropping a bonus right off the bat. Only other thing I can think of might be to eliminate one of Georgia's territories, so there is only 3 territories.

Long Island could be misconstrued to connect to Fort Lee, but I didn't think that looking at it. I'd just scouch it to the north a bit to make sure it doesn't look like it connects to Fort Lee.

The only other peeve I have is Newark. Change the name back to Trenton, Newark is in North Jersey. And while Fort Lee is/was there to protect the Hudson and New York City on the New Jersey side of the river, I personally think you should go with a more recognizable name for North Jersey, say Princeton(battlefield) or Morristown. (worse than Valley Forge winter encampment - 1779/1780)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:25 am

Kab - The onl thing i don't want to deal with on Auto-deploy is that then the ships are going to have to start neutral or something and I really don't want to knock out 4 playable territories from the map.

Jefjef- I'm considering upping it to 3... its just every time I play Europe 1914, I never go for the capital bonus and I just skirt around them... i kind of don't want that to happen with this map. 2 men is weak enough for me to consider attacking it, three's too much when I've got another player on the board.

As for hold the ship and landing point get a bonus... it's not a bad idea. Let's run with it and see how it fits.

RedBaron - The ships idea is a decent one, if the new set up doesn't work out it's what I'm going to work towards. Right now another ship is going to seriously congest that area... i'd have to resize the ships and all that jazz if I wanted to bring it up to 5. But i like this new set up (see next post) but if it flops then I'm going for the 5 ships. As for French and British ships... I'm thinking when I redress graphics I might add some little flags or something.

As for Newark, I changed it back to Trenton. I thought I had named it Newark or New Jersey the whole time, but meh. I'm going to stray away from Morristown or Princeton because they're long names though.

So here's the next update:

Made some of the changes talked about above. Big one is Hold the ship and its landing point for a bonus of 1.

Other things to consider: Should I remove a territory from Georgia? I'm thinking expand Savannah into North Georgia and make it one. Which will give the South an easy colony to hold, plus a choke point to make it easier. Or should I just hold off that, I'm undecided.

I also adjusted the bonus legend... take a look and let me know what you think. I also reconnected Boston and Brooklyn Heights.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby jefjef on Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:46 pm

I love it.. Lets play!! But I must disagree with you on the neutral values for CONN & R.I. It's easier to grab one tert colonies than 4 tert. & to get a bonus you would want to grab the easy ones if your in a psoition to do so.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby iancanton on Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:04 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:As for coding RI and Conn. to start neutral... sounds like a good idea. I think maybe a starting neutral 2 would be good.
Industrial Helix wrote:2 men is weak enough for me to consider attacking it, three's too much when I've got another player on the board.

i agree exactly with this assessment of the number of neutrals on the 1-region states, especially because u need to hold more than 1 state to gain a bonus. delaware must also start neutral, for the same reason as for the other 1-region states.

a major principle behind bonuses is that u ought to have to do at least one thing during a game to receive a bonus. at the moment, even if all 1-region states start neutral, it's fairly likely that player 1 will start with a bonus just through sheer luck. to reduce the chance of this happening here, we need to delete the 2-state bonus. the 2-ship bonus also needs to be eliminated (or modified to be more specific in its aim of helping a southern player without benefitting the north).

although the sea doesn't look like water, i like the mottled effect that u've given to the whole map.

ian. :)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:09 am

Jefjef - Well the easy terrs. are Del. Conn. and R.I. and the only one that sits next to an easy bonus is Del. next to Maryland and New Jersey. While Conn and RI are right next to Mass., Massachusetts bonus requires Maine as well. Theoretically, you could go Mass. to RI and Conn. and hold at Conn. but you've got 4 neutral to plow through plus other plays to worry about. But I think I'm going to leave it on Neutral 2.


iancanton - Yes, Delaware... forgot all about that little guy down there. He definitely gets a neutral starting 2.

As for landing a bonus or getting one two easy, I'm gong to contest that. Here's my reasoning, In order to get a bonus you would have to land at least a total of four territories (Maryland, NJ or NH). Many maps have four territory bonuses (Classic, Canada, BeNeLux, Great Lakes especially and so on) and those maps reward the bonus more than one soldier and are easily defendable. If you land, say, Maryland and New Jersey you have to defend at three territories against 4 territories. The next best case scenario is to land Maryland, make the move for Delaware, but that fits under the criteria of having to do something to get a bonus, even then, that move is to attack a neutral 2.

So I think the 2 colony bonus is fair and in line with the rest of the maps on CC. But I suppose with that intimidating Cartography title you've got you're going to get the final say, which is fine, but I think it should be reconsidered.

As for the two terr. ship bonus, yeah, that needs to go. It will be modified.

Glad you like the graphics and thanks for the feedback!
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:56 am

The map's bonuses (excluding the two-ship) bias north very heavily, simply because the south has more territories to capture for the same bonus. Someone with a heavy south bias has to take at least 6 territories to pick up a +1 bonus, while someone up north need only pick up 2. I don't think that going "by colony" is the right way to do the bonuses on this map at all, as it says "if you wanna win, you've gotta work up north". Why not head back to the original scheme of bonuses for each colony? Presently you have plenty of map space to do that in with the legend.

On a tangent, the note about Massachusetts' bonus is both misleading (Boston is not mentioned) and unnecessary. Your minimap legend clearly states that Massachusetts is both what is present-day Maine (then, Massachusetts Bay Colony) and Massachusetts itself. If people mistake what constitutes the bonus, they are fools, so I don't think you need the note.
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