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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:50 am

As for coding RI and Conn. to start neutral... sounds like a good idea. I think maybe a starting neutral 2 would be good. Maybe start New Hampshire as a neutral as well... or add another terr. (seems like there might be room). That way no one lands the bonus but its not too hard to get it; you've got the option of attacking a neutral for the bonus or going for someone else's terr. I guess it depends on your favored strategy.

Obviously, like you guys have pointed out, the North is going to be the hotspot to hold. But I think you guys are saying that it won't be too easy to hold unless your opponent(s) has no idea what he's doing. Which i agree with. Assuming you do hold the north down to Baltimore or Phillie then you've pretty much got the game with your bonus deployment... but at the same time you hold most the terrs. on the map. So if it were any other similar map and you held this many terrs. the same result would happen.

I'm starting to wonder if I readjust the ship bonus there might be some smaller bonuses to get in the south. For example: Break it into two groups of two and reward holding two ships instead of four. Or simply reward holding two ships and leaving the connections the same.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:00 am

OK, just did a little work on this map and made some gameplay changes.

Here's what's changed:

Connection to Georgia instead of S. Carolina

Hold two ships for a bonus of two.

I removed the ship connection between Boston and Brooklyn Heights, which should make that bonus of two a little harder to get. At the same time, an easily attainable bonus is now in the South, plus it maintains the connection to the north keeping the advantage of holding the ships. Everyone's thoughts on the South getting an easier bonus are appreciated.

I'm pretty much sold on starting RI and Conn at a neutral 2.

New Hampshire has been divided into two territories, Coos and Exeter (Which is where I live in England! but Exeter in the US was important to the signing of the Declaration of Independence).

So yeah, not sure about pulling the connection between Boston and Brooklyn Heights... everyone's thoughts on that are appreciated.

One other possibility that I'm entertaining is that Each ship gives a bonus of 1 or upping the bonus to 3 for two ships... Thoughts?

Still haven't figured out what I'm going to do about the connection to Long Island... would dotted lines look too out of place? Would they even fit? I'm considering fudging it and moving the whole island a tad North so its a little more obvious that it connects to New York and not Fort Lee... or I could leave it and say Fort Lee, New York and Long Island all connect at a three way border. Do you guys assume this already when you look at the map? Maybe it doesn't need clarification...

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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:01 pm

I really don’t think that you should break that connection (Boston - B.H.) ... it makes perfect sense that all navy could connect each other, especially if you keep the bonus when owning pairs of ships. As for the ships bonus if you go for 1 per ship, I’d make them auto-deployable.

As for the connection between NY and Long Island, this is your doubt I guess, I pretty much instinctively thought that they connect... it seems pretty obvious that the borders touch each other, though they do it timidly. I wouldn’t go for the dots, let them remain for the navy.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby jefjef on Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:39 pm

Hello Helix! Good to neutral those two & adding that tert. Ship connects look fine. No prob seeing them.. as far as ships how about a 1 bonus for holding the ship & the tert it connects too. (ship & it's landing point). This maps ready as far as I'm concerned. And with the 2 colonies neutral (I would code em as 3 strength) Ya should add the bonus for holding 3 colonies also. Also I'd leave all ships conncted.. It is a navy after all & boats float.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:51 am

How about 1 more ship(French) in between BH and VA Capes that breaks the British shipping up. The French Navy was involved in the war, and was involved in the decisive victory at Yorktown. 5 ships, 3 for a bonus. Have the French Navy not be connected to the land. Definitely reconnect Boston and BH.

Otherwise I think you're looking good, the neutrals on the single colonies will prevent someone dropping a bonus right off the bat. Only other thing I can think of might be to eliminate one of Georgia's territories, so there is only 3 territories.

Long Island could be misconstrued to connect to Fort Lee, but I didn't think that looking at it. I'd just scouch it to the north a bit to make sure it doesn't look like it connects to Fort Lee.

The only other peeve I have is Newark. Change the name back to Trenton, Newark is in North Jersey. And while Fort Lee is/was there to protect the Hudson and New York City on the New Jersey side of the river, I personally think you should go with a more recognizable name for North Jersey, say Princeton(battlefield) or Morristown. (worse than Valley Forge winter encampment - 1779/1780)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:25 am

Kab - The onl thing i don't want to deal with on Auto-deploy is that then the ships are going to have to start neutral or something and I really don't want to knock out 4 playable territories from the map.

Jefjef- I'm considering upping it to 3... its just every time I play Europe 1914, I never go for the capital bonus and I just skirt around them... i kind of don't want that to happen with this map. 2 men is weak enough for me to consider attacking it, three's too much when I've got another player on the board.

As for hold the ship and landing point get a bonus... it's not a bad idea. Let's run with it and see how it fits.

RedBaron - The ships idea is a decent one, if the new set up doesn't work out it's what I'm going to work towards. Right now another ship is going to seriously congest that area... i'd have to resize the ships and all that jazz if I wanted to bring it up to 5. But i like this new set up (see next post) but if it flops then I'm going for the 5 ships. As for French and British ships... I'm thinking when I redress graphics I might add some little flags or something.

As for Newark, I changed it back to Trenton. I thought I had named it Newark or New Jersey the whole time, but meh. I'm going to stray away from Morristown or Princeton because they're long names though.

So here's the next update:

Made some of the changes talked about above. Big one is Hold the ship and its landing point for a bonus of 1.

Other things to consider: Should I remove a territory from Georgia? I'm thinking expand Savannah into North Georgia and make it one. Which will give the South an easy colony to hold, plus a choke point to make it easier. Or should I just hold off that, I'm undecided.

I also adjusted the bonus legend... take a look and let me know what you think. I also reconnected Boston and Brooklyn Heights.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby jefjef on Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:46 pm

I love it.. Lets play!! But I must disagree with you on the neutral values for CONN & R.I. It's easier to grab one tert colonies than 4 tert. & to get a bonus you would want to grab the easy ones if your in a psoition to do so.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby iancanton on Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:04 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:As for coding RI and Conn. to start neutral... sounds like a good idea. I think maybe a starting neutral 2 would be good.
Industrial Helix wrote:2 men is weak enough for me to consider attacking it, three's too much when I've got another player on the board.

i agree exactly with this assessment of the number of neutrals on the 1-region states, especially because u need to hold more than 1 state to gain a bonus. delaware must also start neutral, for the same reason as for the other 1-region states.

a major principle behind bonuses is that u ought to have to do at least one thing during a game to receive a bonus. at the moment, even if all 1-region states start neutral, it's fairly likely that player 1 will start with a bonus just through sheer luck. to reduce the chance of this happening here, we need to delete the 2-state bonus. the 2-ship bonus also needs to be eliminated (or modified to be more specific in its aim of helping a southern player without benefitting the north).

although the sea doesn't look like water, i like the mottled effect that u've given to the whole map.

ian. :)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:09 am

Jefjef - Well the easy terrs. are Del. Conn. and R.I. and the only one that sits next to an easy bonus is Del. next to Maryland and New Jersey. While Conn and RI are right next to Mass., Massachusetts bonus requires Maine as well. Theoretically, you could go Mass. to RI and Conn. and hold at Conn. but you've got 4 neutral to plow through plus other plays to worry about. But I think I'm going to leave it on Neutral 2.


iancanton - Yes, Delaware... forgot all about that little guy down there. He definitely gets a neutral starting 2.

As for landing a bonus or getting one two easy, I'm gong to contest that. Here's my reasoning, In order to get a bonus you would have to land at least a total of four territories (Maryland, NJ or NH). Many maps have four territory bonuses (Classic, Canada, BeNeLux, Great Lakes especially and so on) and those maps reward the bonus more than one soldier and are easily defendable. If you land, say, Maryland and New Jersey you have to defend at three territories against 4 territories. The next best case scenario is to land Maryland, make the move for Delaware, but that fits under the criteria of having to do something to get a bonus, even then, that move is to attack a neutral 2.

So I think the 2 colony bonus is fair and in line with the rest of the maps on CC. But I suppose with that intimidating Cartography title you've got you're going to get the final say, which is fine, but I think it should be reconsidered.

As for the two terr. ship bonus, yeah, that needs to go. It will be modified.

Glad you like the graphics and thanks for the feedback!
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:56 am

The map's bonuses (excluding the two-ship) bias north very heavily, simply because the south has more territories to capture for the same bonus. Someone with a heavy south bias has to take at least 6 territories to pick up a +1 bonus, while someone up north need only pick up 2. I don't think that going "by colony" is the right way to do the bonuses on this map at all, as it says "if you wanna win, you've gotta work up north". Why not head back to the original scheme of bonuses for each colony? Presently you have plenty of map space to do that in with the legend.

On a tangent, the note about Massachusetts' bonus is both misleading (Boston is not mentioned) and unnecessary. Your minimap legend clearly states that Massachusetts is both what is present-day Maine (then, Massachusetts Bay Colony) and Massachusetts itself. If people mistake what constitutes the bonus, they are fools, so I don't think you need the note.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby jefjef on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:04 am

I think the ship & it's landing point is good & should be kept. It sure creates a battle at those points.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:20 am

Thanks for the comments Tacktix.

Going back to the individual colony bonuses might not be a bad idea... I think I know just how to fit it in there. So I'll give it a shot with the next update.

And Jefjef, I think i want to keep the ship-landing point bonus as it helps the south, but the problem is that it also helps the north a bit as well. Given that there's the neutrals in the easy northern bonuses, it might be alright.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby jefjef on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:29 am

Industrial Helix wrote:Thanks for the comments Tacktix.

Going back to the individual colony bonuses might not be a bad idea... I think I know just how to fit it in there. So I'll give it a shot with the next update.

And Jefjef, I think i want to keep the ship-landing point bonus as it helps the south, but the problem is that it also helps the north a bit as well. Given that there's the neutrals in the easy northern bonuses, it might be alright.

Well if you go back to individual colonies bonus will you want to leave the "easy" ones as neutral 2 instead of making them 3? And if you go ind. colonies you make the south alot more valuable & stronger than it historically was. Depends how ya want your game to be weighted I spose.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:23 am

I know... its a bit of a dilemma... I could keep the southern bonuses smaller than the northern bonuses but still be better than having to capture 7 territories just to get one man. I'm going to take some time to play around with it I think. As for the neutrals, if it goes back to bonuses for individual colonies then bringing them up to three is a possibility, but we'll see yet.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:24 am

I dunno if you want to add anything extra complicated to the map, but perhaps a way to balance North and South is to look at the history. The North is where many of the major engagements between the regular armies clashed, where as the South was poorly defended primarily by militias using guerrilla tactics. (read Colonel Francis Marion "The Swamp Fox") Eventually General Nathanael Greene reorganized the regulars in the South and kept Cornwallis busy until he made the mistake of advancing to Virginia only to be trapped by Washington and the French Navy. Greene advanced south and retook the Carolinas from British control.

My suggestion, would be to have an auto-deploy in the "backwoods" territories of North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia. (North Georgia, Fort Prince George, and Guildford Courthouse) Say +1 "militia recruitment" auto-deploy So if a player had Georgia, South Carolina and Guildford Courthouse(8 territories) you could have a bonus of +4 In the north holding all of New England: Mass Bay, RI, Conn, NH(8 territories) the bonus is the same, +4. If you compare around the map you'll probably find 8-9 territories would in just about every case yield a bonus of +4.

These territories should be treated the same as the 1 territory colonies with a neutral deployment of 2 or 3. Of course then you'd have 6 neutral deploys on an already small map... so there is going to have to be some tinkering with the idea if you use it.

Then the ships would come into play, making holding them to get an extra +1 all the more important. Since, in most cases having these 8-9 territories will likely include one of the port territories.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:53 am

Hmm... that's definitely an idea to work with. But I'm afraid that it might over complicate things. Maybe the same idea but with two militia bonuses in the south instead of three to lower the number of neutrals on the map? I dunno, it's worth making a mock up of and see what the general response is, plus I finally get around to putting that minute man back on the map.

But I totally agree about most the battle being in the north and this map reflects that... but at the same time I don't want to give a player in the south no chance at all.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:42 pm

Not much of an update, I'm still debating how I'm going to go about these bonuses... lets see what a poll reveals.

The options:

Leave the bonuses as is.
Change to a bonus for individual colonies.
Other

Here's the map, added some graphics to the chart thing.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/29 Gameplay *POLL*

Postby jefjef on Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:57 pm

Looks like graphics wise your finished :D. I voted for leave as except a tweek.. Ya jump from 6 to 10 colonies.... How about just graduate it up to 8 held.. Thats just over half of em & anything more is area bonuses anyway. & you do have the ship/landing tert bonus. But once you have & hold 8 you just about have the game won anyway. LETS PLAY
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/29 Gameplay *POLL*

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:35 am

I agree with jef, you'll never need a 12 colony bonus, the game is pretty much over at that point. GAME ON!

I think a huge factor here is the fact that Georgia is 4 territories. If Georgia is 2 territories you could hold Georgia and the Carolinas(8 territories) for a bonus of 3. It would still favor the north (New England- 4 colonies, 8 territories +4) but it wouldn't be as big a gap.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/25 Gameplay discussion

Postby iancanton on Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:12 am

Industrial Helix wrote:As for landing a bonus or getting one two easy, I'm gong to contest that. Here's my reasoning, In order to get a bonus you would have to land at least a total of four territories (Maryland, NJ or NH). Many maps have four territory bonuses (Classic, Canada, BeNeLux, Great Lakes especially and so on) and those maps reward the bonus more than one soldier and are easily defendable.
Industrial Helix wrote:So I think the 2 colony bonus is fair and in line with the rest of the maps on CC. But I suppose with that intimidating Cartography title you've got you're going to get the final say, which is fine, but I think it should be reconsidered.

although, compared with classic, the big difference here is that the 2-region colonies are not the only easy bonuses on the board, we can try keeping the 2-colony bonus for the time being and see if we can improve a few things.

Industrial Helix wrote:And Jefjef, I think i want to keep the ship-landing point bonus as it helps the south, but the problem is that it also helps the north a bit as well.

the landing point bonuses do help the north too, to an almost equal extent, plus there is about a 35% chance that player 1 (in 1v1) will start with one or more of these. if u start each ship with a single neutral, then this will keep the principle of needing to play actively to gain ur initial bonus.

ian. :)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/29 Gameplay *POLL*

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:58 pm

Ok, starting the ships with a 1 man neutral might be a good idea to prevent easy landings... I'll keep it in mind but am not totally sold on the idea.

I will make adjustments to the bonus legend to remove the 12 and 10 colony bonus.

What about the possibility of dropping North and South Carolina to two territories each?

And if we bump it up tot he first bonus starts at 3, then the smallest bonus area possible is 3 territories, if you're willing to attack all neutrals. And none of the easy to get bonuses have common borders, which adds to the difficulty. If we keep the ship bonus as is, this should aid a player starting in the south. It will also aid a northern player, but more in the sense of adding another territory to defend instead of holding at Mass.

What about the possibility of adding another ship at Georgia? Or even removing Boston and adding in at Georgia?
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/29 Gameplay *POLL*

Postby jefjef on Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:19 am

Personally the single tert colonies & the indian terts are enough neutrals. This map does not have a large # of terts. If someone gets a ship/landing bonus it is just 1 & will be fought over to take the bonus from them. I don't think I would reduce the area terts of georgia (or any of them). The south is strong in # of terts. I think your pretty well on target as it is. As for the easier colony grabs in the north/central it's as it should be. Most of the major combat was in the north due to population/cities & resources/wealth and would be reflected in game play tactics. And if ya really want another ship the French/Yorktown. But I think ya got enough.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/29 Gameplay *POLL*

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:14 am

Industrial Helix wrote:Ok, starting the ships with a 1 man neutral might be a good idea to prevent easy landings... I'll keep it in mind but am not totally sold on the idea.

I will make adjustments to the bonus legend to remove the 12 and 10 colony bonus.

What about the possibility of dropping North and South Carolina to two territories each?

And if we bump it up tot he first bonus starts at 3, then the smallest bonus area possible is 3 territories, if you're willing to attack all neutrals. And none of the easy to get bonuses have common borders, which adds to the difficulty. If we keep the ship bonus as is, this should aid a player starting in the south. It will also aid a northern player, but more in the sense of adding another territory to defend instead of holding at Mass.

What about the possibility of adding another ship at Georgia? Or even removing Boston and adding in at Georgia?


I'd go with a neutral 2 just to make it interesting and prevent a starting move of 3v1 for a bonus and deploying in other areas to gain other bonuses. A 1 neutral would highly favor the player with the first turn.

I say keep keep the Carolinas at 3 territories each, they were more important during the war and warrant the size. Georgia did very little during the war being the least populous of the 13 colonies. Georgia was quickly taken and controlled when the British set it's focus on the South, and was only liberated towards the very end of the war, after Yorktown.

http://ngeorgia.com/history/nghistar.html

Savannah and North Georgia is probably all you really need. The history above, if you read it, does allow for a (French)ship off the Georgia coast. You can't take off Boston, the Revolution started there, a Boston territory needs to be on there somewhere. There is play there though, 4-5 ships, different nationalities, ship and landing point bonuses, all sorts of stuff. :)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/29 Gameplay *POLL*

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:37 am

Thanks for the feedback everyone... somehow it all just stewed in my brain until I came up with an idea. Really though, I should be working on my dissertation, but meh... I've got a month.

Anyway, because you demanded it (Jefjef, I'm looking at you) French ships!!

Ok, with the French ship bonus, the south gets a little more of an advantage with the easier bonus. The north, however, doesn't get the same advantage as the bonus for securing the British ships is more difficult and less rewarding.

I also reduced Georgia to two territories. Which I'm going to see what you guys think, I'm open to restoring it to four or maybe three. Thoughts?

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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 8/6 Gameplay

Postby jefjef on Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:16 pm

ummmm... Unless I'm mistaken the british landed & captured charlston. And the french showed up at Yorktown. I'd leave 3 ships as english & up the bonus & if ya want a french ship land it at yorktown. (but i really like the ship & it's landing point bonus more than holding fleet bonus) I'd also still have atleast 3 terts in georgia to kinda represent it's non-value as a colony. You really don't want it to bonus someone to easily and ya wanna keep total tert count up. (Helix I never demanded a french ship that I recall. The war was pretty well over when they showed up)
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