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Re: American Revolution *updated and with poll*

Postby tlane on Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:24 pm

i don't think it is necessary to have
"no bonus"
in the rules, as long as there is nothing that says there is a bonus i think it is fine

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Re: American Revolution *updated and with poll*

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:28 am

Hmm... that's a good point tlane. Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

If I took out the no bonus part in the rules, would you assume there was no bonus or would there be confusion over whether the Indian territories are part of a state's bonus structure or if they hold a bonus on their own?
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Re: American Revolution *updated and with poll*

Postby whitestazn88 on Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:49 am

interesting concept. i look forward to looking at this later on in its development
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Re: American Revolution *updated and with poll*

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:45 am

Hmm, well the poll seems to indicate the British Canada ought to go neutral. So i'm going to go with that, and knock down the Indian terr. to a killer neutral 2. British Canada to a starting neutral of 3 with autodeploy +1 when occupied.


Also, Mr. Benn, could you reset the poll again, when you get a chance, please? Thanks!
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby spiesr on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:40 am

I am not sure about having BC neutral. It might not see much use. Is it really worth it to take out the killer neutral and the neutrals on it to get the +1 autodeploy? Becuae you can't even do alot with the auto deploy, you can't just fortify it out to somwhere useful because there will be a neutral in your way. If you every wan't to use it all all you have to kill the killer neutral every time.
Also, micmac territory seems kind of useless as it only connects to another killer neutral so it would be almost easier or more worthwhile to go aroung the other way in most situations.
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:44 pm

spiesr: I know what you mean, but I think the general feeling of everyone following this map is that having BC open to random drop that it would give too much of an unfair advantage to whatever random player. One thing about reinforcing the auto deploy is that if you hole any of the colony terrs. and BC with a quick knock out of the neutral 2 men on Indian terr. you could reinforce it out and into the main game.

Theoretically, you could capture it and let it sit a couple rounds and bring the men back into your game, while the neutrals act as buffers against your enemy. Maybe less so with just 1 autodeploy, Do you think upping the auto deploy to 2 or even 3 would bring BC more into the game?

Thoughts anyone?
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby ustus on Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:26 pm

Industrial Helix wrote: Do you think upping the auto deploy to 2 or even 3 would bring BC more into the game?

Thoughts anyone?


Honestly?? i would never touch BC. I think i outlined my reasoning earlier in the thread, and Speisr more or less said the same things i did. Maybe with a 2 or 3 autodeploy, but I'd still see it as a waste of troops to take in the first place. Sorry....
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby bryguy on Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:47 pm

Loving this map Industrial :)

1) The texture in the ocean seems really tough
2) Not all the states had the shapes that they have today. Would it be possible for the state shapes to be corrected?
3) In the legend, the 3s look alot like 8s IMO
4) It is hard to see the white attack dotes from BH to NY
5) Is the name of the highest boat Boston? Its confusing to me...
6) I don't think that BC will ever be touched, unless you increase the auto deploy at least by 4. A deploy of 2 or 3 isn't really much, especially if reinforcements are chained. In a game, with BC at the current auto deploy level, I wouldn't take it for all the bananas in the world (Whoah where did that come from :shock: ), but if you increased the auto deploy to at least 5 (Maybe 4), then it would make it more worth wild.
7) I cannot see he Micmac territory being used much, as it is the same number of territories to go from Bemis Heights to NH via Micmac-Algoncin as it is to get there via Saratoga-Bunker Hill.
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:33 pm

ustus - Yeah, The more this map progresses the more I'm starting to wonder if I ought to just open all the killer neutrals up to deployment as well as BC or leave just BC neutral w/ adeploy. Not entirely sure yet. But I'm open to suggestions and am trying out a few ideas.

bryguy - Thanks for the feedback firstly.
1) Not the first time I've heard it, I'm going to try with the blue scale a little and if not then the old paper texture, keep your eyes open for future updates on that.
2) Right you are, I think Bruceswar mentioned that earlier. I did a little research and the shapes of the states vary from time to time, for example, tennessee was part of N carolina for a while. I'm hesitant to change it for two reasons, 1. The shape of the map will lose some recognition 2. it will alter territories and continent bonuses, especially Georgia.

However, the more I think about it the more I'm reluctantly accepting that it's going to have to change. Expect the first revision with the next update.
3) and 4) Good points. Gonna have to tackle that.
5)Yes, Boston is the name of the highest boat. It seems pretty clear cut to me, but I'm biased. Is it too close to the land and dots?
6) That'd be a big bonus. I'm assuming you mean worth taking through the killer neutrals for a 5 man bonus?
7) Hmm... good point. The idea of putting the Micmac route in there is that it follows Benedict Arnold's trek up to Canada. Maybe a little rearranging for the New York terrs. I'll play around with it.

Thanks again for the feedback, I def. appreciate it.
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Re: American Revolution *Poll*

Postby alstergren on Thu May 07, 2009 1:19 pm

Bruceswar wrote:When I think of the American Revolution, I do not envision a map like this. You have to remember that the states did not look like they do today, well some of them at least. Note the Pink Highlighted areas..

Image


Yes. Agree. Was just about to make a post that as far as I remember from history classes, there were 13 original colonies that committed the heresy to declare war upon their rightful ruler. Why aren't there 13 colonies in the map? And what about the rather important British possessions to the north? The map is fine, but if depicting history it would be nice if as accurate as possible.
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri May 08, 2009 8:03 am

alstergren - in short, agreed. I'm trying to make changes to the map right now and shaping the western border to look like the map bruceswar posted. I'm hitting some bumps though and it looks like i might have to freehand the western border, lets hope four years of drawing classes pays off!

As for the British northern territories, we've got the terr. marked British Canada which will feature an autodeploy... there's a bit of a debate over how much it should deploy, whether or not it should be neutral, ect. in the pages before this.

As for whether or not it has thirteen colonies, all thirteen are represented albeit not as individual bonus areas and with their 1790s borders (soon to be changed to the 1775 borders). I intend to stick with lest it becomes a debate and some good ideas are put forward, always open to suggestion.
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby alexandrois on Sun May 10, 2009 10:34 am

Hey, could you split british canada up into maybe 2/3 regions and maybe have a bonus of 1 for holding them?
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue May 12, 2009 4:31 pm

Hmmm... that may be a really good idea. It'd still keep the effect of having a wilderness buffer but yet get around the british canada autodeploy problem.

Thoughts anyone? I might just run with this.

Thanks for the good feedback alexandrois
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby pamoa on Fri May 15, 2009 4:52 am

:?: are you in competition with 1776! - Battlefields of The American Revolution thread :?:
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon May 18, 2009 9:54 am

pamoa wrote::?: are you in competition with 1776! - Battlefields of The American Revolution thread :?:


I don't believe so. He messaged me beforehand just to make sure there were no problems or conflicts with our respective maps. Personally, i have no problem with his map as I think he's aiming for a totally different game play than what I am and I think we both have much to offer with our maps. So no, I don't believe there is a competition between us nor do I intend for there to be one.

Update: Should have a revised map coming up within the next few days, so stay tuned.
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Re: American Revolution *updated 4/16/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon May 18, 2009 2:26 pm

ok, ok. got a new version of the map this time with most recommended changes made. Here's the Mk IV

Click image to enlarge.
image


1) took out the "No Bonus" from the rules thing and added the new flag for B.C.
2) I revised the gameplay for B.C. it now deploys much higher but but can be a tad more difficult to obtain. no autodeploy.
3) I fixed the problem with the 3s and they are now readable.
4) Obviously, i changed the map to more resemble the territories as they looked back then. Consequentially, I lost a few terrs. as a result and had to restructure.
5) Virginia's bonus has been lowered one to reflect the fact that it lost a terr.
6) Carolina's bonus has gone up as another territory has been added.
7) Massachusetts Bay has been added (Maine) and Micmac Territory moved over one.


Anyway, thoughts and comments are very appreciated, only with your help can this map see its way to completion.
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Re: American Revolution *updated 5/18/09*

Postby Elijah S on Mon May 18, 2009 2:54 pm

Helix - This map is coming along nicely!
I particularly like the way you've placed the bonus graphics - nice touch.
My only suggestion might be to add texture or additional objects to the left side, as there seems to be large areas of empty space.
Best of luck!
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Re: American Revolution *updated 5/18/09*

Postby TaCktiX on Mon May 18, 2009 7:11 pm

Okay, when I look at this map, I think "cool, the 13 Colonies", NOT the American Revolution. Granted some territories are named for famous battles of said war, and there are British areas on the map, but I just don't feel like it aptly shows a war. This likely is just me, but something to keep in mind.

Graphics
- Most of the territory names are aligned with the bottom of the map, but some of them, particularly in the south, seem to move sideways to fit into the territory. If Massachusetts Bay is any indication, you should be just fine with having them coming out of the borders a smidge.
- The dotted lines to the ships are inconsistent in their placing. Some of them go right up to the ship, others stop short. Try to come up with a universal "distance from" and stick to it for all connections.
- The stars around American Revolution look like a distended disc instead of the intended shifted circle. Doing a re-look at it might be necessary.

Gameplay
- The British bonus is unnecessary, and the +6 bonus justifying the 5 neutral territories I think is unnecessary as well. If anyone eventually held it, the resetting 3-neutrals would make it almost impossible to break. Remove the Brits from Canada, and use the Indian Territories as quick connections between different states, just at a price.
- The description of the killer neutral in the legend isn't exactly correct. It would reset to neutral 3 on the holding player's next turn.

That's all I have for now, but nevertheless you got
Image.
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Re: American Revolution *updated 5/19/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue May 19, 2009 1:16 pm

Elijah S - Thanks for the feed back, I've been giving some thought to the left side and still am unsure. Any ideas would be appreciated. Quote, maybe a graphic or something.

Alright tacktix, you gave something to work with here. Here's what I've got.

I changed the dotted lines to be more consistent and i touched up a few other graphics problems i had as well. I changed the slanted names to align more with the bottom and altered some borders as well. Most fit in their terr. save Appalachia, Chattahoochee, Allegheny and a few others. I'll see what others say but the only one that is too big, imo is Appalachia. I messed around with the title as I've been meaning to do, you're not the only one to say that and to be honest its pretty much true, esp. if I take out the Canada thing. I suppose Elijah S's map is more American Rev. than mine. So I played with it, not sure which I like yet:

The 13 Colonies
The 13 American Colonies (i think i like this one best, see below)
The Thirteen American Colonies

And lastly I took the Canada feature out to see how it might look. As I've feared, there's a lot of empty space and I'm not sure what I can do about it given the dimensions of the playable landmass. Any thoughts on all this would be appreciated.

Click image to enlarge.
image


NO CANADA:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Discussion points:
1) Do you like no Canada better than having playable Canada?
2) Is it too spacey in the upper left? (I'm thinking maybe add a quote or something up there.. ideas? thoughts?)

All thoughts and comments appreciated, I can't make this map alone!
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Re: American Revolution *updated 5/18/09*

Postby whitestazn88 on Tue May 19, 2009 11:32 pm

i did like the canada bonus as a way of taking up space, although the structure of the bonus was confusing... was it a total of 6 with boats and canada or was canada a completely different bonus?

the above question brings me to my next point which was that the canada bonus wasn't really that cool... so taking it out is better.

as for making more playable area, maybe you could incorporate indian territories more? like have another bonus of +1 maybe per tribe, but each tribe would be like 2 territs, with 1 of the 2 being neutrals? i don't really know... or maybe you could tilt the playable area to the left, bring it down a bit and try to enlarge it...

again, i'm not totally sure for playable area, but i'm sure that i like the 3 canadian flags out of the way
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Re: American Revolution *updated 5/19/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu May 21, 2009 5:57 am

whitestazn88 - first off, thanks for the input.

The more I look at the map, i think having canada out of the game is for the best. Given that Elijah S is going for a more American Rev. game, it seems apt that I should push the 13 American Colonies more and of which Canada was not.

I'm thinking of taking a couple possible routes with the extra space, and everyone feel free to comment on this

1) Fit the third Indian Territory back in and use them as links up and down the western border, start neutral 3, no killer neutral .
2) Leave it at two Indian territories and clean up the western space with a quote or graphic

Otherwise I'm at a loss for ideas on that right now. Any help on that is appreciated.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *updated 5/19/09*

Postby MrBenn on Thu May 21, 2009 7:08 am

It's nice to see that you've used the correct version of the Union flag for the period, although the flag doesn't seem to blend into the map properly right now.

For me the bigget concern is that the map appears to have a mini identity crisis... You've clearly mentioned the 13 Colonies on the title, yet have only got 6 bonus regions, and there are more than 13 territories... as a Non-American (while familiar with the broad detail of the American Revolutionary War / Battle for Independence) the specific locations of the thirteen colonies is hazy and not clearly defined enough here to justify that as a subtitle. You've made allusions to particular battles(through some territory names), but not enough to give a sense that a war / rebellion / invasion was going on :-k

If the colonies were more clearly delineated, then there would be a good opportunity to 'unite the 13 colonies', possibly even as some kind of objective??

That's my main random thought/observation.

You alluded to the fact that you were going to have to (re)draw some borders freehand. If you zoom in really close (800% or more), and use a 2-3px brush, then mouse-wobble becomes less of an issue ;-)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *updated 5/19/09*

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu May 21, 2009 7:55 am

I think the graphics of this map look good, and I think that changing it from "American Revolution" to "The 13 American Colonies" was a good idea. I also think that the removal of Canada was a good idea.

What about basing it off of something like this: http://www.scarsdaleschools.k12.ny.us/mslib/images/13colmap.gif with each colony having a few territories, then getting a bonus for holding each colony? I think that makes more sense than how you have them grouped now for bonuses. The other option would be to just have five bonus regions (one for each of the Colonies group plus the boats) but that may make gameplay too difficult.

A bonus for each colony would be a problem with Rhode Island and Delaware at least, I don't see you splitting them into more than one territory. Maybe make them +1 auto deploy? I don't know if that would make it a problem at the start since I assume someone would drop them. You could always make them neutral to minimize this problem.

Since Vermont was disputed between New Hampshire and New York, how about having that as a territory that gives you a bonus if held in conjunction with either NY or NH? If you hold all NY, NH, and VT the bonus would still just be +1 though.

Also see that Maine was part of Massachusetts at the time, so that may pose a problem, since they did not border each other. Maybe use one of the ships to get between the two instead of having to go through NH.

I like the idea of the Indian Territories as killer neutral shortcuts between some of the colonies. I think the way you have it now with the two Indian Territories is a good idea.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies *updated 5/19/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue May 26, 2009 5:10 am

Mr Benn - Ok, you make a real good point about the colonies not being identified. I'm working on coming up with a solution to that. As you can see from the progress, this kind of went from an American Revolution theme to the current 13 colonies. I've decided to run witht he 13 colonies style over the American rev. as my plans for the American rev. style seemed to be lacking given the map that I've created. I think it will be much better suited as a 13 American Colonies map than American rev. So then you're points do have weight about the identity of the colonies, next update should address that. Thanks for your thoughts.

Jake - First off thanks for the feedback. Glad you liked the changes that have been made. As for a regrouping of colonies, I'm working out some sort of system that will give each of the 13 colonies a place in the map and not just grouped as part of a bonus. As for Vermont, I think I'm going to just leave it as it is b/c when I was looking at some of the period maps, Vermont or the territory that woul dbe come Vermont, was not included in the colonial border. Not sure why exactly, but I think sticking to the 1763 border line will be the route for this one as there's not a whole lot of room there to play with a playable feature.

As for Maine or Massachusetts Bay as I've seen it labeled. It's probably going to be the toughest colony to work with for the reasons you said. Stay tuned for the next update and we'll see what I can come up with. Rhode Island and Del. are also gonna be a pain, we'll see how that goes as well. Thanks again for the feedback.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *updated 5/19/09*

Postby MrBenn on Wed May 27, 2009 6:34 pm

I just noticed that your poll ended a while ago...

Poll Result

How should British Canada be played?
Poll ended at Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:11 pm

Neutral... 9... 47%
Neutral with a bigger bonus... 4... 21%
Killer Neutral... 3... 16%
Open deployment (just got to be lucky!)... 2... 11%
Open deployment with open deployment Indian Territories... 0... No votes
Open deployment with starting neutral territories, not killer... 1... 5%

Total votes : 19
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