First Nations of North America [Quenched]

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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby Tisha on Sat May 16, 2009 2:41 pm

oaktown wrote:
Since I've mentioned them twice, I tried to google the Tunimiut. I came up with nothing. ??



:oops: I know i pulled it from one of my maps somewhere.. Tunumiut .. a typo

the whole arctic area are all Inuit.. it's hard to find names for any of them. lingustic stock might be a better way to sort the arctic areas.. no? I don't know.. you should show my how you think it should be divided, and I'll name the territories..:P
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby icehack on Sat May 16, 2009 3:21 pm

I really love this map so far and I'm looking forward to playing it.
I'm not feeling the canoes though, they seem out of place to me. I also agree with oak that the Arctic region might need to be re-examined.
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby pamoa on Sun May 17, 2009 7:15 am

great basin is a geographic feature north-west is a compass direction
as native didn't knew compass you may find some geographic feature for those 3 legend region names
and I was thinking of icons in front of legend region names not territories
and sorry for being pedant about 888
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun May 17, 2009 11:30 am

I am pleased to issue this map the draft stamp on behalf of the foundry community.

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Welcome to the Foundry Proper!


About Arctic and sub arctic zones, this is how i see that zones.

show

obviously , you can split/merge in a different way, but i think that reducing the number of territories could be a double good choice:
1. More sense of few people living in these zone.
2. Easier to hold, generally when a zone has more than 7 territories is left as "the final zone in which i have to kill enemy troops before winning".

This is a beautiful map, you 're doing a great work Tisha! =D>
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby Bruceswar on Sun May 17, 2009 2:04 pm

nice moving up. :)
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby cairnswk on Tue May 19, 2009 4:01 am

Tisha, congratulations.
I have to say this is the best map i've seen come into the foundry colour-wise. I hope you don't have to change much more of it.
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby Tisha on Tue May 19, 2009 9:11 am

cairnswk wrote:Tisha, congratulations.
I have to say this is the best map i've seen come into the foundry colour-wise. I hope you don't have to change much more of it.

are you colorblind?

please say yes...lol
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby Bruceswar on Tue May 19, 2009 9:19 am

Tisha wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Tisha, congratulations.
I have to say this is the best map i've seen come into the foundry colour-wise. I hope you don't have to change much more of it.

are you colorblind?

please say yes...lol



LOL I hope for your sake he is!
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby cairnswk on Tue May 19, 2009 12:42 pm

Tisha wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Tisha, congratulations.
I have to say this is the best map i've seen come into the foundry colour-wise. I hope you don't have to change much more of it.

are you colorblind?

please say yes...lol


no i am not colour-blind. but do remember that colour is a subjective aspect.
If you can't accept my comments gracefully as a compliment, then don't expect me to to be back for further compliments. :(
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby Bruceswar on Tue May 19, 2009 1:05 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Tisha wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Tisha, congratulations.
I have to say this is the best map i've seen come into the foundry colour-wise. I hope you don't have to change much more of it.

are you colorblind?

please say yes...lol


no i am not colour-blind. but do remember that colour is a subjective aspect.
If you can't accept my comments gracefully as a compliment, then don't expect me to to be back for further compliments. :(



Nah what she means is there has been a good bit of talk already about the color blind people having a hard time with this map. She was hoping you were as this would mean the problem is solved.
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby Danyael on Tue May 19, 2009 2:35 pm

i think being colour blind i can say that great basin, mesoamerica, northeast woodlands look the same but with the name order any colour blind person with a brain should be able to tell them apart. Due to the fact all are separate from each other

nice work =D>
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue May 19, 2009 2:44 pm

As with any Colorblind issue, I always favor of labeling continents/zones on the map---for instance Oaktown's Indian Empire map, Middle East map, DustBowl, High Seas---I realize the last few weren't specifically named because of a colorblind issue---but the sentiment of naming zones on the zones is exceptionally helpful.


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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby Risky_Stud on Thu May 28, 2009 8:24 am

cool map!
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby lostatlimbo on Thu May 28, 2009 10:09 pm

map is looking good. i think the colors of the regions look fine except for the "Plateau" because it is so small - took me a while to find it. I would try switching it with one of the brighter colors on the map to make it stand out more.

my only other gripe is using "Dine" instead of Navajo. i realize that they call themselves Dine (with an acute accent over the E, actually) in their language, but this map is in English and that tribe is widely recognized as Navajo (which they also use to refer to themselves). I appreciate the need for space-savers, but I blinked at the map for a couple minutes in shock at their exclusion before I finally made the connection. i think you're better off cutting into the extra space in Nemene and change it back to Navajo.

i disagree with Pamoa's suggestion for geographic names rather than compass regions, but some suggestions if you go that route:
NW = Coast Mountains
NE Woodlands = Great Lakes
SW = Desert lowlands?
SE = ? Swamps ?
as for Artic & Sub-Artic, how about Artic & Tundra?

Lastly - the trees should definitely be pine trees that far north (the current trees looks deciduous) and there really shouldn't be ANY trees in the Artic.
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby lgoasklucyl on Fri May 29, 2009 12:17 am

This map is freaking gorgeous graphically =)

I, personally, really like the trees.

I feel like the rivers are too solid of a color however, though that may be my monitor calibration.

They seem to be too bold of a stroke to match the rest of the map. Are they unclear as impassable if a little less solid?
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby pamoa on Fri May 29, 2009 3:43 am

as you made a map of northern America before European came in
I think you should be attentive to the places and tribes names
it would be much more respectful to use their own names instead of the English given names
here under you will find 2 example of this

Nunaat instead of Artic
wikipedia wrote:The Inuit people live throughout most of the Canadian Arctic and subarctic: in the territory of Nunavut ("our land"); the northern third of Quebec, in an area called Nunavik ("place to live"); the coastal region of Labrador, in an area called Nunatsiavut ("our beautiful land"); in various parts of the Northwest Territories, mainly on the coast of the Arctic Ocean and formerly in the Yukon territory. Collectively these areas are known as Inuit Nunaat.[3][4] In the US, Alaskan Inupiat live on the North Slope of Alaska and the Seward Peninsula. Greenland's Kalaallit are citizens of Denmark.

Nēhilawē instead of Cree
wikipedia wrote:among the Cree, they usually referred to themselves collectively as Nēhilawē[1] (those who speak our language); they called themselves "Cree" only when speaking English or French.
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby SultanOfSurreal on Fri May 29, 2009 4:54 am

awesome map, here's a suggestion on a better name for Baffinland

Identification. The Baffinland Inuit constitute the Easternmost group of what is commonly referred to as the Central Eskimo, a designation that also includes the Copper, Iglulik, Netsilik, and Caribou Inuit. The Baffinland Inuit are a hunting people who have occupied their land for over four thousand years. They refer to their territory as Nunaseak, which means "beautiful land."


http://www.everyculture.com/North-America/Baffinland-Inuit-Orientation.html
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby Bruceswar on Fri May 29, 2009 9:08 am

lostatlimbo wrote:
Lastly - the trees should definitely be pine trees that far north (the current trees looks deciduous) and there really shouldn't be ANY trees in the Artic.



I disagree Sub Artic has trees in it :) They look pretty anyhow :)
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby lostatlimbo on Fri May 29, 2009 8:40 pm

This page has a great map showing the earth's biome. You'll see that the deciduous forests (leafy trees) don't grow anywhere near that area. The boreal (pine trees) forest doesn't grow in the tundra either, but its not entirely out of place as a border on the sub-artic.

>>> http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/9k.html
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby JrFan88 on Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:51 pm

Great map, love the theme. Wish I was half as talented. However, there are 2 glaring inaccuracies.

First: Where are the Cherokee? They should occupy the WHOLE territory you've given to the Yamasee, and at least the southern THIRD of what you have assigned to the Tuscarora.

Second: The entire territory you've given to the Nemene (whoever they are), or AT LEAST the southern 2/3, belonged to the Comanche; historically they controlled the largest hunting range of ANY plains nation - from New Mexico to Colorado and Kansas, all of Oklahoma and most of Texas.

I don't know who you relied on for research, but they were way off on both of these.

Sorry, but as a 1/4 blood Cherokee married to a mixed Apache/Comanche, I kinda have a thin skin about this sort of thing. Don't mean to bust yer balls, but it's kinda important to get this right.
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby Tisha on Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:39 pm

JrFan88 wrote:Great map, love the theme. Wish I was half as talented. However, there are 2 glaring inaccuracies.

First: Where are the Cherokee? They should occupy the WHOLE territory you've given to the Yamasee, and at least the southern THIRD of what you have assigned to the Tuscarora.

Second: The entire territory you've given to the Nemene (whoever they are), or AT LEAST the southern 2/3, belonged to the Comanche; historically they controlled the largest hunting range of ANY plains nation - from New Mexico to Colorado and Kansas, all of Oklahoma and most of Texas.

I don't know who you relied on for research, but they were way off on both of these.

Sorry, but as a 1/4 blood Cherokee married to a mixed Apache/Comanche, I kinda have a thin skin about this sort of thing. Don't mean to bust yer balls, but it's kinda important to get this right.


Cherokee are there and Comanche are there.. just because I didn't use their names the Europeans gave them, doesn't mean they are missing. and just because they aren't exactly where you "know" they were in the 1600- 1700.. doesn't mean I have them completely wrong. The Cherokee migrated down from the north.. how do you know exactly where all the tribes were back then?

my glaring inaccuracies aren't and inaccurate as you think they are..

I am using the earliest names I can find for the tribes.. whether people recognize the names or not.

if I'm not so nice.. it's because some of the posts here are irritating.
someone says the impassables are too bold, then someone comes along and says make them bolder..
someone says the canoes stick out to much, someone else says the canoes blend in to much..
someone says the north is not holdable, so I try helping by adding not passable trees there, but of course there are no trees in the north (by the way, my trees are like a half inch above the boreal forest tree line, not much of a stretch there)

I like the regions the names they are. even if I change a name from southwest to sand or whatever, it's still not going to be a native name. Even if i change the name artic to Nunaat, the people down south didn't call the arctic Nunaat. I'm sure they had their own name for it.


I'm messing around with the trees and adding some great names that have been suggested. I'll have an update soon..
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby JrFan88 on Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:39 am

Cherokee IS NOT a European name, it's their OWN name for themselves, and they were in place in the southeast BEFORE the earliest Virginia colonies. European settlers were encountering them BEFORE the French and Indian wars. What name are you using? Comanche is not a European name either, it was given to them by the Utes, derived from a word meaning (closely anyway) "bad neighbors". They were in place by at least 1700. Again, what name are you using? These are historical facts. Forgive me if I take you to task on them, but they are a part of my direct ancestry and heritage. I do believe I know what I'm talking about. Please quote your sources regarding naming conventions and geographical history.

p.s: If you'd like, feel free to e-mail me on this subject. That may be a more suitable way to debate this particular point.
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:24 pm

tisha wrote:if I'm not so nice.. it's because some of the posts here are irritating.
someone says the impassables are too bold, then someone comes along and says make them bolder..
someone says the canoes stick out to much, someone else says the canoes blend in to much..
someone says the north is not holdable, so I try helping by adding not passable trees there, but of course there are no trees in the north (by the way, my trees are like a half inch above the boreal forest tree line, not much of a stretch there)


You just described a heart of the Foundry Process. Differing viewpoints! Just keep working on things and be open to discussion, and your map here will continue to thrive and turn out to be an excellent map, Tisha. :)


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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:02 pm

Absolutely beautiful map, I really love the colors and how it works with the theme. Nice work there.

Gripes:

The canoes don't really look like canoes to me, once i read it in the thread it seemed obvious that they were, but it didn't strike me at first sight. Maybe alter the graphic a little? Throw something in the key? Something to think about I guess.

As for the North and trees debate... I would assume that ice and distance would be the realistic key advantage in these areas, perhaps you could use that to your advantage.

I think what is now present day mexico is a littl etoo out there in the open... perhaps add in the Rio Grande or the Colorado Rivers to break it up some?

Anyway, best of luck working this map through. I think it looks really great so far.
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Living in Japan [Update 07/17/11]: http://mirrorcountryih.blogspot.com/
Russian Revolution map for ConquerClub [07/20/11]: viewtopic.php?f=241&t=116575
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Re: First Nations of North America.. UPDATE 05/15

Postby lostatlimbo on Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:47 pm

Tisha wrote: if I'm not so nice.. it's because some of the posts here are irritating.


Tisha - as Andy said, this is the nature of map-making. While I can empathize with your frustrations, you should be happy that there are so many people are interested and have opinions to share. This means your map has a lot of support to push it through the process - something my maps sorely lack.

My best advice to you is to not react to all of the advice as it comes. If you don't completely agree with a suggestion, let it simmer and be debated a little before making an update, but still be prepared to change it back or reinvent something. (my PSDs have many many layers of graphics i've done again and again)

For the record, I don't have a problem with the trees being up there. Sometimes you have to stretch reality to make a good map. I think it will work if they're alpine trees (though I also like IndustrialHelix's ice suggestion). I personally think the mountains look fantastic and the canoes look like canoes to me, but I think lightening them a shade or two would help your cause.

About your territory names - I understand what you are going for, but I also think you're fighting a losing battle. As there is no official "era" for this map, its going to be difficult to accurately place every tribe in the right place with the right name. The tribal spread and identifications changed a lot - its not as if they drew real boundaries. Tribes merged ,split, etc, over time. I appreciate your thirst for detail, but in the long run, people will expect to see the tribal names and places they recognize. Remember - this is a game map, not a research map.

$.02
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