First Nations of North America [Quenched]

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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby ender516 on Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:58 pm

Tisha wrote:so making NIIMIIPUUUU a neutral one.. anything else?

Looks like you're having a little trouble with your vowels. ;)
Seriously, though, I think that change would make this map pretty much perfect.
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby iancanton on Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:56 am

Incandenza wrote:I kinda like the idea of making Nimiipuu a 1, it kills a couple birds with one stone, plus it provides minimal protection for bordering bonuses (a 1 is a lot different than a 2 in terms of defense).

Tisha wrote:so making NIIMIIPUUUU a neutral one.. anything else?

this is an excellent suggestion. the single neutral prevents someone from starting with the bonus, but a player can bring it into play immediately without committing a heap of troops.

iancanton wrote:u can reduce the number of resultant random neutrals by making tunimiut and taino start neutral too, so that no-one starts with greenland or circum-caribbean. the total number of random-starting regions will then be 69, meaning that 1v1 games start with 23 regions each, 2v2 with 17 each and 3v3 with 11 each.

Tisha wrote:a three territory bonuses really needs to start neutral in a 72 territory map? come on guys...

the 3-region bonuses do not need to start neutral on this large map. however, if nimiipuu starts neutral, then there will be at least 2 additional random neutrals floating around except in the rare 5-player and 7-player settings, so u might as well put them where they'll be doing something useful. if u make it so that tunimiut and taino are each neutral 1 instead of neutral 3, then u'll actually reduce the number of neutral troops on the board. although taino is more important than tunimiut, since circum-caribbean is a +2 bonus, the influence of both of these is secondary to that of nimiipuu, which is the one that needs to be fixed. i'd prefer all three to start as neutral but, if u choose to code only one fixed neutral region, then let it be nimiipuu.

ian. :)
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby 2dimes on Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:42 pm

So, ah... no one from saskatchewan has been by to comment then?
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby wolfpack0530 on Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:16 pm

I dont think that dropping the plateau is that big of a deal. ive dropped it 50% of the games I have played, and felt no real advantage to having it. However, keeping enough forces around it to keep it is a headache sometimes. I think making nimipuu a neutral 1, or 2, makes it an easier card spot for those going first, but making it a 3 gives border protection for other bonuses. I say leave it alone.

On a map that big, 1 army doesnt make a huge difference. Just roll one less '1' during the entire course of the game and call it even :).
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby natty dread on Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:17 am

I feel like the Great Basin and Plateau bonuses could almost be combined. They are almost always held together anyway...
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Tisha on Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:15 pm

I'm not combining them
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby MrBenn on Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:11 pm

I know that there has been some discussion about adding a neutral, but I'm not convinced that anything needs to be changed...
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Tisha on Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:03 am

MrBenn wrote:I know that there has been some discussion about adding a neutral, but I'm not convinced that anything needs to be changed...

I've played it plenty, and have seen no real advantage gained..

What people are telling me is they would like the starting numbers different in team games.

like doubles.. first team to go gets 18 territories
triples.. first team gets 12 territories

One less territory would get rid of that.
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Incandenza on Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:33 am

Yeah, that's really the main thing... and as always, it's not a deal-breaker, the map could certainly move out of beta as is. But removing the first-mover from both dubs and trips would be preferable, and if that can be achieved by tossing a neutral 1 (or several) onto easily-dropped bonuses, so much the better.
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby MrBenn on Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:20 pm

Right - I'd assumed that people were getting concerned about the small bonuses, without considering the "golden" numbers ;-)

so making NIIMIIPUUUU a neutral one.. anything else?


So you're going to add a neutral that will start with a single army.... right?
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Echospree on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:46 pm

I think making only the one territory start neutral, and letting the rest fall as they may is the ideal solution.
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Esn on Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:03 am

Just wanted to give a thumbs-up to this map. I'm playing it right now. It has some very interesting strategic qualities, and is easy to understand.

In contrast to what someone said earlier, the arctic bonus is quite useful. I started by taking the Northeast and Greenland. With only 2 territories needed to defend a 3-army bonus, it's not a bad place to expand from. From that, you need to add only 3 more points of defence to get the 6-army arctic bonus, and most of those are connected.

It feels like a very finished map already. As for making one territory start with 1 neutral army, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me, one way or the other. But I'm not a statistician. If those who are say that it would make it more balanced, then go for it.
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Tisha on Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:59 pm

MrBenn wrote:Right - I'd assumed that people were getting concerned about the small bonuses, without considering the "golden" numbers ;-)

so making NIIMIIPUUUU a neutral one.. anything else?


So you're going to add a neutral that will start with a single army.... right?

I would prefer a neutral 2... so it's not too easy.


is that all I need to do?
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby MrBenn on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:43 pm

Tisha wrote:I would prefer a neutral 2... so it's not too easy.

is that all I need to do?

As far as I can tell, then yes. (and I'd also prefer a neutral 2).

I took the liberty of adjusting the XML: http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/9/2259283/First_Nations_North_America.xml

I'll send this change to lack...
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Esn on Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:53 pm

A potential objection to the idea of having Nimiipuu start neutral is that it leaves only 71 territories, which means that there will be either 2 or 3 neutral territories no matter how many players there are. And that also affects how many armies everyone starts out receiving - in most cases, it will be 1 less than if there were no neutrals.
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby MrBenn on Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:17 pm

Esn wrote:A potential objection to the idea of having Nimiipuu start neutral is that it leaves only 71 territories, which means that there will be either 2 or 3 neutral territories no matter how many players there are. And that also affects how many armies everyone starts out receiving - in most cases, it will be 1 less than if there were no neutrals.

Ensuring a balanced drop should always be preferred to minimising the number of neutral territories on a map...
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby MrBenn on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:44 pm

The new XML is live. Let's see how things go from here ;-)
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby jpcloet on Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:40 am

I have to say I'm really impressed with the game play on this map. It feels like a cross between Iberia and South America. It does feel fairly balanced for the most part however, it did drop bonuses for 2of3 in this game. Game 6098902 Other than being able to drop on a small bonus, I think this map could rank top 10 in large team games.
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Blitzaholic on Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:00 pm

great map for trips and quads, nice work tisha. =D>
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Esn on Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:12 am

Is it just me, or is this map particularly conducive to 3-way ties that last a long time? One party in the North (beginning with Montagnail in the north-east), one in the West (mountain ranges & coast), and one in the South. And the main fighting then happens either between South & West along the west coast, South & West through the plains, South & North through Tuscarora (fighting over Woodlands and Southeast), and North & West through the west coast.

I only have 2 games running, but one of them's 71 rounds long already (5825323). :) (and the same situation is developing in the other one)

The player in the West seems like he could be at a bit of a bigger disadvantage, since there are more points to defend and he's always easy to reach for both South and North.

Anyway, these are just some newbie strategy notes. Doubtless, more traits will become clear as I play longer on this map.
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby MrBenn on Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:35 am

Esn wrote:Is it just me, or is this map particularly conducive to 3-way ties that last a long time?

This is symptomatic of a well-balanced map - and in my opinion is pretty standard in 3-player games in any case ;-)
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:32 am

MrBenn wrote:
Esn wrote:Is it just me, or is this map particularly conducive to 3-way ties that last a long time?

This is symptomatic of a well-balanced map - and in my opinion is pretty standard in 3-player games in any case ;-)



Better the map is well balanced than lopsided.
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby ender516 on Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:09 pm

Bruceswar wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
Esn wrote:Is it just me, or is this map particularly conducive to 3-way ties that last a long time?

This is symptomatic of a well-balanced map - and in my opinion is pretty standard in 3-player games in any case ;-)



Better the map is well balanced than lopsided.

Very true. If you don't want long games, try escalating spoils. Sooner or later someone will cash in for an overwhelming number of troops. Sure, it's a matter of luck at that point, but the skill comes in being ready.
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby Esn on Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:34 am

MrBenn wrote:
Esn wrote:Is it just me, or is this map particularly conducive to 3-way ties that last a long time?

This is symptomatic of a well-balanced map - and in my opinion is pretty standard in 3-player games in any case ;-)

One of the games started as 6-player, the other as 5-player, but both are 3-player now and look like they're going to stay that way for some time. I was referring more to the fact that there seem to be 3 stable "bases" long-term (if you play flat rate or no spoils), and any player who doesn't manage to get into one of those 3 positions will be eliminated sooner or later.

This isn't a complaint, just a hypothesis about the strategic side. Have any other people noticed the same thing?
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Re: First Nations of North America

Postby the.killing.44 on Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:41 am

Esn wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
Esn wrote:Is it just me, or is this map particularly conducive to 3-way ties that last a long time?

This is symptomatic of a well-balanced map - and in my opinion is pretty standard in 3-player games in any case ;-)

One of the games started as 6-player, the other as 5-player, but both are 3-player now and look like they're going to stay that way for some time. I was referring more to the fact that there seem to be 3 stable "bases" long-term (if you play flat rate or no spoils), and any player who doesn't manage to get into one of those 3 positions will be eliminated sooner or later.

This isn't a complaint, just a hypothesis about the strategic side. Have any other people noticed the same thing?

Sorry, but if you play any decently large map on 3, 5+ players, with no spoils or flat rate, you're probably going to get a stalemate.
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