Flanders 1302V15[Beta] major changes! P19

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Re: Flanders 1302 Update Juli 21 V6 - Pg1

Postby DubWarrior on Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:15 am

lt_oddball wrote:Was Antwerpen then still part of Brabant ?

Just to answer this one:
In 1056, some northern parts of Brabant became part of Rijks-Vlaanderen. But, Antwerp stays part of Brabant, and BORDERS at that time with Rijks-Vlaanderen. Only in 1312, Antwerp became some democratic republic (only for a while, typicaly belgium history ;)
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Re: Flanders 1302 Update Juli 21 V6 - Pg1

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:04 pm

Welcome back DubWarrior!

only few things:
  • The color of rivers is good, maybe try to mix colors where rivers flow into the sea
  • The sea route from Broekburg to Oostburg...it's possible not to have the route drawn on the minimap?
  • Not a big fan of a All caps text for rebel strongholds, i think that the icon is enough ;)

On the whole, the map is very nice and you're on the right way.
No reason to hold this map in the drafting room.

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Onward and upward!

Have a nice day
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Re: Flanders 1302 Update Juli 21 V6 - Pg1

Postby The Neon Peon on Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:02 pm

Congratulations, coming along very nicely through the foundry.
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Re: Flanders 1302-Update August 20 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby DubWarrior on Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:17 am

Well, Back with a new version...
and, it's great to get stamped :)

So, amongst the changes in version7:
- changed the border between Damme and Poperinge (so there isn't a connection any longer)
- same for the border of Duinkerke and Broekburg
- Blend the rivers and the sea
- cleaned up the rivers
- I didn't gave the borders more transparency, but made them equal and thinner
- some small changes; like lowering the city-icon in Kortrijk, and made the decorative frame symmetric
- resized the maps (back to 630px and 840px)
- gave groeninge and oudenaarde some more space, by putting their borders a bit to the east
- added a bridge between antwerpen and beveren.
- added a subtitle (Battle of the Golden Spurs)
- changed the mini-map
- made the text one pt bigger, and put the rebel strongholds in lower caps. (great comment!)
- added the gameplay-changes, made by neon peon, RedBaron and Oddball...thanks so far all!
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Re: Flanders 1302-Update August 20 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby lt_oddball on Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:32 am

Hi Dubw,

Still one old question:
Why is there this relatively huge sea link between Oostburg and Broekburg ?
The peasant army didnot have a naval fleet, nor did the french knights. Everything went overland.
Let's stick to the mobility of 1302 and remove unnecessary large sea (or airflight :s) links.

One other point:
You have the map of the battle area, but you don't get the gameplay of it:
Who plays the role of the french knights ?
All rebel cities have +1 (players immediately go for these .. like the city states in maps of ancient greece/Rome) and the rebels have the small but desired bonuszones of Oostervant, Rijskvlanderen and 4 Ambachten. So your map now gets the feel of an internal revolt map (as in the Flemish cities battle each other amongst eachother).
In order to have the french invading knights effect felt you need to add some autodeploy factor in the area of Bethune.
A castle ? A french flag ? +2 autodeploy ?

To balance things you must figure out how far the first next +1 town is away from the +2 of the french invading army as compared to the distance inbetween each +1 town.
(e.g. Ieper is then too close to Bethune..so you need to create some distance inbetween..so that "flemish" players have time to collect another +1 town before the "french" player hits on him/them.
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Re: Flanders 1302-Update August 20 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby DubWarrior on Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:14 am

Hi Oddball,
Thanks for all your comments so far. You bring up some true questions.
-This sea-link was an idea to link 2 'ends' on the map with eachother. If it's impossible for a player to cross the map, some good action can be taken in that way, by using this connection. it's just a very small detail, and can be easily removed from the map.
No armys where shipped at that time, but, as I said already, I try to make some historical background, not a scenario. Just to give an impression of that time, there is an auto-deploy on the major cities, and their is a sea-link, representing the traderoutes at that time (it's not a historic sealink, but cities such as bruges, had a very important sea-trade at that time)
So, the importance of 'free' trade-cities at that time is suggested with a sea-link and the auto deploy.
-The same answer for 'the french' part of the map. Their isn't a french part on the map, that's true. I suggest more an internal revolt. As I said, a scenario-map isn't exactly what I'm looking for so far; imagine a standard-game with 8 players? It's CC, its always an internal revolt ;) So I'm more looking for a historical background, rather then a historical scenario.

On the other hand, it's just my opinion, some other players's opinions are welcome, It's to hard to make a decision now.
Thanks so far, but more comments are neccesary.

Grtz
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Re: Flanders 1302-Update August 20 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby lt_oddball on Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:23 am

DubWarrior wrote:Thanks so far, but more comments are neccesary.

Grtz
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ok... waiting for more opinions :)
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Re: Flanders 1302-Update August 20 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby The Neon Peon on Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:37 pm

lt_oddball wrote:
DubWarrior wrote:Thanks so far, but more comments are neccesary.

Grtz
DubWarrior




ok... waiting for more opinions :)

I am waiting for an update There has not been one since Page 3.
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Re: Flanders 1302-Update August 20 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby DubWarrior on Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:15 am

Hey,

I replaced the image in the first post on page 1. that's the 7th update you see. Older version can be found beneath.
It looks like this one, I posted this one on August 20:
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Re: Flanders 1302-Update August 20 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:01 am

You are looking REAL good here Dub. Don't forget to change your title on your first post when you edit, it still says your last update was 3 weeks ago...

Usually gameplay discussions begin in earnest now. The biggest concerns I'm seeing right now is the small 2 territory bonus regions may be dropped on the start of a fair amount of games. And what about the rebel strongholds? Will they start as neutral?

Take a look at these utilities and see what you come up with concerning your bonuses.

Bonus Probability Calculator

Continent Bonus Spreadsheets and other useful map making tools
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Re: Flanders 1302-Update August 20 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby DubWarrior on Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:46 am

I used the CC_MAP_BONUS_CALC.xls file.
It comes up with some suprising changes for the bonus.
The results of it are:
Bonus for:
Duinkerke:+2
Artesie:+5
Kroonvlaanderen: +10 (!)
Rijksvlaanderen: +3
Henegouwen: +4
Vier ambachten: +3
Brabant:+3
Kortrijk: +5
Oostervan: +4

some professional advice would be welcome here...do I need to make these changes on the map?
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Re: Flanders 1302-Update August 20 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby lt_oddball on Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:32 am

DubWarrior wrote:I used the CC_MAP_BONUS_CALC.xls file.
It comes up with some suprising changes for the bonus.
The results of it are:
Bonus for:
Duinkerke:+2
Artesie:+5
Kroonvlaanderen: +10 (!)
Rijksvlaanderen: +3
Henegouwen: +4
Vier ambachten: +3
Brabant:+3
Kortrijk: +5
Oostervan: +4

some professional advice would be welcome here...do I need to make these changes on the map?



The general xls calculators are just that; general.
Only looking at terr/3 =+1 and each open border = +1 extra.
That serves as a start..but you can and should tweak it upwards or downwards depending on your map/concept.

In your map you already have +1 autodeploy of key towns INSIDE the greater zones.
At least those should be substracted.

Also it makes a difference if the bordering zone at your border is just one zone or is there a whole world of multiple bonuszones behind it (..edit before: was a bad example with bad conclusion..).

Also a border may border 2 or 3 opposite territories that belong to one or up to three different bonuszones..makes a huge difference compared to bordering just one opposing territory.

Just think it over and do a first suggestion. We'll do the criticism :D
Last edited by lt_oddball on Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flanders 1302-Update August 20 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby iancanton on Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:06 pm

on the map, sint omaars is where vinoxbergen ought to be and vinoxbergen is where sint omaars is really located. consider combining duinkerke bonus zone with artesie, since it's not good design to have the easiest bonus in a corner of the map. similarly, brabant can be changed by inserting the city of mechelen (which was later the capital city of the burgundian netherlands) between antwerpen and brussel. anderlecht is a possible fourth region in brabant, west of brussel, if u need one - modern football fans might find this one interesting.

http://www.visitflanders.co.uk/go/desti ... story.html
http://www.cs.kuleuven.be/~maarten/maps/Begvl.html

doornik was a french royal city, if u want to try lt_oddball's idea of letting one area represent the french king.

http://www.fahnenkontor24.de/FOTW/flags/be-whtto.html

u'll have to fix the borders at lokeren-axel-hulst-beveren and sint amands-doornik-bergen-valenciennes because it's unclear whether troops can attack across the corner. is the dutch spelling valencijn instead of valenciennes?

ian. :)
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 9/15 V7 [D] - Pg1

Postby Symmetry on Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:15 pm

Nice looking map- I look forward to seeing it come to life. The only thing I have to contribute at the moment is that the text has a few mistakes:

"The independence in some major cities in the French province of Flanders worried the french king. In 1302 he declared war on the rebels... and lost it. The french knights were defeated by an army of Flemish peasants."

Better:

"The independence of some major cities in the French province of Flanders worried the French king. In 1302 he declared war on the rebels... and lost. The French knights were defeated by an army of Flemish peasants."

My suggestion:

"1302. Worried by growing signs of independence in the major cities of French controlled Flanders, King Philip IV declared war on the rebels... and lost. The knights of the French army were defeated by an army of Flemish peasants."

Good luck with this one- it looks really promising.
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 9/25 V8 [D] - Pg1

Postby DubWarrior on Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:36 am

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back with the 8th version.
amongst the changes made:

-combined the Artesië-region with the Duinkerke-region.
-replaced Vinoxbergen with the more important city of Kassel (together with Kortrijk one of the last French strongholds in 1302)
-placed Sint-Omaars beneath the army-circle of Vinoxbergen
-added the city of Arras
-added the city of Mechelen
-changed the bonusses.
-changed the legend
-fixed the border of Axel, Lokeren, hulst, beveren
-replaced Valenciennes by Valencijn
-used the textline of the post by Symmetry
-made Brugge and Arras an auto-deploy+2: Now Flanders and France have both some 'basis'. Historically, the revolt started in Brugge for Flanders. And the French knights gathered in Arras before assaulting Kortrijk.
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 9/25 V8 [D] - Pg1

Postby lt_oddball on Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:49 am

very nice. :D

you forgot to fix the X-border St Amands-Valencijn-Bergen-Doornik
and text
"1302. Worried by growing signs of independence in the major cities of French controlled Flanders, King Philip IV declared war on the rebels... and lost. The knights of the French army were defeated by an army of Flemish peasants."


Later, I have a look at bonus values (simplest is the substraction of the autodeploys from the standard value).. and have a better look at where impassables are good to have and where not for the map..
:P
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 9/25 V8 [D] - Pg1

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:09 pm

Some of those territories can be broken down. Maybe a break between Gent and Flanders on the Eeklo/ Roesclare border? Or Roesclare/Ieper

French territories could be broken up too. The Bethune/ Terwaan border maybe?

Whatever you decide, I'd say that some of those bonuses need to come down.

The big sea route could be shorter too. I'd say remove it entirely unless you break up the territories.

This map has a lot of borders to defend for any territory held. I'll wait for someone with a calculator to run the numbers.
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 9/25 V8 [D] - Pg1

Postby lt_oddball on Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:49 am

My bonus suggestion would be :

Artesie (6-2) = 4
Kroon Vlaanderen (10-4) = 6
Henegouwen 4
Kortrijk (5-1)= 4
Brabant (3-1) = 2
Vier Ambachten 2
Rijks Vlaanderen (3-1) = 2
Oostervant (3-1) = 2

(substracted autodeploy goes without saying).
No governing rule: .. but I don't warrant each border terr. a +1..simply because the opponent(s) wont be able to place on each of the common borders a massive defense force either..

Also note , your border of 3 terr. may be facing the opponent border of only 2 terr. which naturally means that you WILL conquer those 2 to protect your bonuszone, thus only 2 x +1 instead of 3 x +1 in such a case (Artesie/KroonVlaanderen).

Also note , that by giving the small locked zones such as Oostervant and Rijksvlaanderen such huge bonusses as you proposed (based on basic rules)you'll see that those get to be the key zones to hit for at start, in which case the lucky spawner in that area (and his neighbor a deadbeat or a noob) is quick to rule the map by only conquering a couple of territories. And you 'll see that after round 4 the match is already decided by this player.
So push that (game decided too early) effect down by reducing bonuslevels of the small zones (afteral, they are only tiny zones) and leave more rounds to conquer before you can say that the game is decided.
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 9/25 V8 [D] - Pg1

Postby alstergren on Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:31 pm

Vlaanderen Onafhankelijk!
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 9/25 V8 [D] - Pg1

Postby lt_oddball on Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:03 am

alstergren wrote:Vlaanderen Onafhankelijk!


yesssirrr =D>
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 9/25 V8 [D] - Pg1

Postby iancanton on Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:52 pm

lt_oddball wrote:Artesie (6-2) = 4
Kroon Vlaanderen (10-4) = 6
Henegouwen 4
Kortrijk (5-1)= 4
Brabant (3-1) = 2
Vier Ambachten 2
Rijks Vlaanderen (3-1) = 2
Oostervant (3-1) = 2

(substracted autodeploy goes without saying).

i'm broadly in agreement, except i'd reduce kroon vlaanderen to no more than +5: although this is a difficult bonus, it can be built up gradually by earning +2 and +1 auto-deploys on brugge, ieper and gent.

Symmetry wrote:The big sea route could be shorter too. I'd say remove it entirely unless you break up the territories.

DubWarrior wrote:This sea-link was an idea to link 2 'ends' on the map with eachother. If it's impossible for a player to cross the map, some good action can be taken in that way, by using this connection. it's just a very small detail, and can be easily removed from the map.

the long sea route looks completely out of place and distorts the geography a little too much for me. if u do decide to keep it, then make it connect to a ship to slow down the attack a little bit (the ship will not be part of a bonus, but act only as a short cut, like antarctica in world 2.1).

RedBaron0 wrote:And what about the rebel strongholds? Will they start as neutral?

can u show the number of starting neutral troops on each auto-deploy bonus?

is atrecht the correct flemish name for arras? i presume that we're showing this conflict from a flemish viewpoint.

ian. :)
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 9/25 V8 [D] - Pg1

Postby iceco on Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:21 am

Atrecht is correct.
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 9/25 V8 [D] - Pg1

Postby DubWarrior on Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:00 am

Symmetry wrote:Some of those territories can be broken down. Maybe a break between Gent and Flanders on the Eeklo/ Roesclare border? Or Roesclare/Ieper

French territories could be broken up too. The Bethune/ Terwaan border maybe?


You mean: join Eeklo with Roeselaere in one territory? and join Bethune and terwaan into one?
I just like the idea of a large map?
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 10/12 V9 [D] - Pg1

Postby DubWarrior on Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:03 am

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amongst the changes made:
-changed the bonuses
-changed the x-border doornik/bergen/valencijn/sint-amands
- removed the water-connection (as stated before; I was more looking for a trade route...a ship for battle in between the route looks more like a pirate-route ;) to me, so I deleted it, since I'm the only one who thought it was a nice idea)
-added the territory of Zierikzee.
(Take a look to version 8...what could happen was: a player in the right gains a +2 bonus for Vier Ambachten and a +2 for Brabant +1 for antwerp...is +5 for only 6 territories...and relative easily to defend...So instead of a central battlemap, all action is driven to the east...once conquered Brabant and Vier Amachten, the bordering Aalst will fast be conquered and the game is over...
so I added an extra territory, I hope that will be enough to get some complicated action on the center of the map :)

sorry if changes are slowly made
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Re: Flanders 1302-update 10/12 V9 [D] - Pg1

Postby lt_oddball on Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:39 am

okayy :D

The modified bonusvalues are fine with me.

Added Zierikzee (Flanders? :-s ) is good idea.

hmm..
can you curve the borderline Bergen - Halle at the east end sharply downwards .
So it becomes clearer that there is no way a direct connection between Bergen and Brussel (behind the Legend text).


Otherwise it is all fine by me. =D>
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor ulli.
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