Japan - 日本 - Quenched

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Re: Japan - A new attempt!

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:31 am

RedBaron0 wrote:I am willing to try stretching a the geography some, your draft is very good oaktown, it looks like Japan, but one of my first observations would be is the islands look, inflated.


To somebody who knows the geography of a particular country well, they will usually notice any distortion. However, in many cases, some distortion is absolutely essential to making a map work here on CC. The trick is to distort it enough to make it work, but not too much as to make it completely unrecognisable. I could name any number of maps with distorted areas/borders - on Europa, I set out to achieve a completely geographically accurate map of Europe, but still had to fudge things to make it work!

Timminz wrote:Could you maybe fudge the shape a little, by stretching it NorthWest to SouthEast? It would give a little more girth to the country, and make more space for the territories.

A little bit of rotation might help to get a better fit on the canvas, and inflating/fattening the islands a bit would help give some more space - you could experiment with different satellite angles, or different projections. The key thing is to give yourself as much room as possible on the land to fit things in.
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Re: Japan - A new attempt!

Postby RedBaron0 on Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:30 am

No WWII map, that's for sure, that niche is filled to the brim.

I'm fiddling with angles and stretching the borders. I should have something posted in the next day or so to show you my progress. That map most likely will be missing some of the frills of the first draft, and most likely the mountain impassibles. I'm unhappy with the look of the little green mountains, and I know I'll have to make them look better before the end anyways. After the update and input from you all I'll look into Google Earth and see if different vantage points from overhead might be better for the map.
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Japan ----- Again!

Postby Mr Pink on Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:33 pm

Hi,

I know it's been tried several times before, but can't someone please revive plans to produce a Japan map.
I have a few ideas of my own, but I have never been involved with designing a map and wouldn't know where to start.
Any takers?

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Re: Japan ----- Again!

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:48 am

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Re: Japan - A new attempt!

Postby barterer2002 on Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:55 am

I wonder if perhaps the way to handle Japan is not to be a straight geographic styled map but rather a map of their class system with everything from the Emperor to Gishas to Ninjas to Ronin and even Shishi
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Re: Japan - A new attempt!

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:17 pm

barterer2002 wrote:I wonder if perhaps the way to handle Japan is not to be a straight geographic styled map but rather a map of their class system with everything from the Emperor to Gishas to Ninjas to Ronin and even Shishi

Interesting idea...I kind of like it.


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Re: Japan - A new attempt!

Postby mattosaurus on Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:40 pm

I agree on using the class system idea. Japan as a country is just too linear, and a straight geographical map is boring. One with the class systems would be unique and appeal to a greater variety of people.
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Re: Japan ----- Again!

Postby Mr Pink on Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:55 am

Great! Good Luck.

I recommend you consider including ports (eg: Hakodate, Sendai, Yokohama, Kobe, Kyushu, Okinawa, Shikoku). ;)

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Re: Japan - 1st revision pg2

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:35 am

Small only - 601x600
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I'll consider the class system in conjunction with the map if there is enough support. The class system includes 4 tiers, Samurai, Farmers, Artisans, and Merchants. It might be possible to assign some territories as one of these classes. Discuss it, but for now I'll continue to work on the basic map. I am unsure about the idea personally, I don't want to over complicate this.

The revision does not have the mountains on them, I need to work them out a bit more. Seeing the map in just it basic political divisions help me to see where I can erase border lines then add the mountains back in and only move territory names and the circles if necessary. Also discuss where it might be best to add the mountains back in. I'm figuring I'll put less mountains back in, some in the area of Nagano and up and down the central axis of Tokoku, and maybe a few spots here and there. Further updates I'd like to connect via the sea more territories. Perhaps the small island territories on the east coast(Tsushima-Oki-Sado-Rishirito) connected to each other and a few connections along the west coast via natural points sticking out. (Sapporo-Iwate-Izu-Wakayama-Miyazaki?)
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Re: Japan - 1st revision pg2

Postby barterer2002 on Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:04 am

well if you were going to incorporate class into a straight map like you're doing I think the advantage would be to take terts and make them able to attack other similar terts (or lower terts). Most of your terts would be farmers but you could add in the merchant class in each bonus region and have them able to attack each other allowing for movement throughout. Samarai could attack other parts of the map (in one way attacks-not on other Samarai terts though I think) while the Shogun and Empereror regions could autodeploy an extra 2.
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Re: Japan - 1st revision pg2

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:10 pm

The above post has some good ideas, though I'm afraid that space and room for icons as such may be limited---due to how close all the borders and names are.


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Re: Japan - 1st revision pg2

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:04 pm

True, to add in the class system, I'd probably have to focus in primarily on central Honshu and turn into more of a feudal era map. I'm not to hot on that idea myself.

My feelings are if you can't at first get a simpler, basic Japan map through the foundry then the reason no one has been able to fill this niche, is there isn't really a niche to fill. Part of it may be the basic geography of Japan is too up and down, so even though there have been good attempts, with good mapmakers, at making Japan, it just will never get the support it needs.

On a side note, how about the map without the mountains? Does it look a little more playable if I don't add them back? I can work on merging some of the smaller territories together and repositioning territory borders, to reduce the overall clutter of the map.
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Re: Japan - 1st revision pg2

Postby barterer2002 on Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:25 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:The above post has some good ideas, though I'm afraid that space and room for icons as such may be limited---due to how close all the borders and names are.


--Andy



Well you could put crossed swords (similar to the sword and scabbard of the majors I suppose) on a tert on each bonus region without too much effort. Sapparo, Fukushima, Nagano, Tochigi, Shiumane and Kagoshima could all support this I think.

really though I think that the class structure of Japan lends itself more to a different type of map (I'm thinking of the way that Prohibition Chicago doesn't really take the city or Poison Rome doesn't take Rome in) and that's not the way that RB wants to take this one which is all good in my book.

I'm not sure that Japan lends itself to a simple map there Mike but I'll try to get some more ideas for you tomorrow if I come up with some.
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Re: Japan - 1st revision pg2

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:22 pm

As pointed out, a simple geographic map involving Japan has always been, hm, difficult to make work, gameplay wise and graphic wise.

Most of the attempts, I recall, tried to go for the standard 40+ territories, similar to the Classic Map. What if you went a smaller route---it'd clear up some problems, or at least, make things more manageable. For instance, two maps that come to mind --- USA-West has 24 territories I believe, and USA-Southwest has 32. Perhaps 32 might be an idea to consider....


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Re: Japan ----- Again!

Postby MrBenn on Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:55 pm

Mr Pink wrote:Great! Good Luck.

I recommend you consider including ports (eg: Hakodate, Sendai, Yokohama, Kobe, Kyushu, Okinawa, Shikoku). ;)

Mr P.

[Merged] - this post was in the map ideas thread, and is now up the page a bit ^^
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Re: Japan - 2nd revision pg2

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:09 am

I've taken Andy's advise and pared the number of territories down to 32, eliminating 1 bonus region in the process.

I've also changed out the background image to an oriental fabric wave design, but I really liked that dragon so I painstakingly cut the dragon out and masked behind the bonus minimap - newly added, replacing the named bonuses on the folding screen. I still need to add the names of the bonus regions back onto the minimap.

The main country outline is a stronger line and the bonuses are also separated by a stronger line.... but most land bonus connections are short. I've also added quite a few sea territory connections that I think even out the playing field, at least some. North and South aren't as easily defensible and I could see landing just about anywhere on this map and having a chance, although the pink region (Hokuriku) is screaming "classic Europe" to me... :|

Wanted to show my progress, this map is without the circles again, but most everything else is there.

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Re: Japan - 2nd revision pg3

Postby oaktown on Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:44 am

For these early stages in development you might be better off without the background images. The waves are distracting, and the dragon makes it really hard to read the small map.

Overall your regions look really hard to hold - that'll make early rounds of a game frustrating. In at least two regions every territory is a border. Sado doesn't need to connect to Akita, and you could reposition lines/mountains around Chiba and Tochiga to make one of them a protected interior territory.
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Re: Japan - 2nd revision pg3

Postby GhostSniper15243 on Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:03 pm

Make the mini map less detailed and lose the waves. As far as the actual map goes it's pretty good, maybe some more territories would be nice. Also I think there are too many mountains, but that's just me.
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Re: Japan - 2nd revision pg3

Postby sailorc on Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:09 pm

I agree with oaktown. The waves are more noticeable than the map. They should be toned down or removed for now. Also, it's difficult to see the bonuses map with the dragon behind it.

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Re: Japan - 2nd revision pg3

Postby captainwalrus on Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:37 pm

This seems sort of fuzzy for some reason. I think some of the boarders could be sharpened. The attack line from Nagasaki to tsushima is unnecessarily curved. I see no reason for it not to be straight. Same thing with a few others, if it doesn't need to curve, don't make it so curvy.
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Re: Japan - 2nd revision pg3

Postby DublinDoogey on Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:24 am

For gameplay--and because of space--it might be better to only use the mountains to separate bonus regions. There are a few places where they separate countries within a single bonus which doesn't really do more than take up space and allow for the regions to be very difficult to hold. Perhaps you could take advantage of the natural linearity of the country to use the mountains in a way that makes the sea routes very very important. That way you could simply start at one end and march through but then someone would be able to swing around via the ocean and disrupt your bonuses.

For graphics (when you get there), if you like the dragon it might be a good idea to take your colors and such from it. Some of the subdued maps are the easiest to read and are nice to look at (i'm thinking middle east in particular). Also, there are a lot of good prints and such from Japan's art traditions that are much nicer than the background that could maybe be used. I'd look through museum websites and find something nice and simple.

You've got a good start, I think taking it down to a lower country count was a great idea. Good luck!
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Re: Japan - 3rd revision pg3

Postby RedBaron0 on Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:44 am

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Alright, I've deleted a few connections and straightened the lines. There is at least 1 non-border territory in each bonus region. I've toned down the bonus colors which now gives a more subtle look. And for now at least all graphical frills have been removed, for now, with earlier versions though, I hope that you can see what I'll be aiming for when the focus turns to the graphical. Only graphical highlight, which is more noticeable now without the other backgrounds is a blend from northwest to southeast on the blue background. Perhaps the dark blue on the background made and graphical background more annoying, perhaps a lighter blue behind the graphical background, or a sea-green color might be more suitable?

Mountains are little smaller and on the slightly less numerous side. I did redraw the internal bonus boundaries, I think they're coming up a little pixelly now, so I gotta fine the balance between this and the blurry before version.

Looking at it now, Kanto has too many borders to be a 2 army bonus, it should be a 3, either I should bump that up, or have just one connection from Izu-Oshima to Chiba, but then I'm sliding back to the other problem of having too many dead end territories, which I count now at 3. On that same tangent, Hokkaido might be better suited to being a 2 than a 3 with only 2 border states.

Just to ask for a clarification, GhostSniper15243, when you say "too detailed" for the minimap, do you mean the dragon, or the actual outline of the minimap?
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Re: Japan - 3rd revision pg3

Postby GhostSniper15243 on Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:38 am

I was referring to the dragon itself. After the change, I like it. I like the backround color. I think the small map should be moved a bit up, litterally. I think it's too close to the actual map. Also I was thinking Chugoku should get more than 3 bonuses. Holding 7 territores and defending other borders is hard. I also think Hokuriku should be bumped down to 4 bonuses. There's only 5 territories and 3 borders. I was also thinking for later development there should be anther small bonus, like holding Tokyo or something, just a suggestion. Overall this is a really good start. I'll be looking forward to seeing the next version.
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Re: Japan - 3rd revision pg3

Postby sailorc on Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:56 am

like u said, Kanto should have 3 bonus armies. other than that, I don't see much wrong with the bonuses. u should also add more graphics after gameplay is sorted out.

nice map.
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Re: Japan - 3rd revision pg3

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:16 am

Not have a map of Japan is a real shame.
Good choice ;)

i think you can find the best result for gameplay trying a mix between your map and the one oaktown posted.
show: oaktown version

Hokkaido,kanto,chugoku are good on your map.
But i think that oaktown version is more interesting about kiusu/sikok and nippon north
About sikok, space could be a real problem on your version....so i don't blame you if you will not try to have another bonus zone ;)
Anyway i'm really happy if you can set your tohoku zone taking inspiration from oak's map...

looking forward to your next update :)

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Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:30 am
Medals: 70
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Bot Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
General Achievement (8) Map Contribution (7) Tournament Contribution (6) General Contribution (17)

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