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Re: Japan - 4th revision pg3

Postby sailorc on Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:10 pm

I'm not an expert at gameplay, so I'll only talk about graphics for now. I think the water should have some kind of texture, but not as bold as the beginning. the land itself could also use some texture, too

it's coming along nicely
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Re: Japan - 5th revision pg4

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:59 am

The last few comments have been more on the graphical side, so I've made a graphical overhaul:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Went with the suggestions I got adding texture to both land and sea, and added the Japanese style boat(called a "junk") near the longest sea connection. I changed the direction of the blend to mesh with the background "wave" pattern. I've updated the kanji "Japan" to a calligraphy looking one.

Couple of tweaks to the playing surface, I did change the bonus value of Tohoku to 3; the other bonuses are the same from the previous version. I added a couple of mountains to the center of the Tohoku bonus, those 4 territories had a 4 corners thing going on that bothered the hell out of me.

Future versions may include the following as I spitball ideas to myself...

1 more territory to Hokuriku to better justify the 4 bonus value, I'd think about putting the territory Gifu back on the map which is currently merged with Aichi. I could then think about merging a territory in Tohoku (probably Akita or Iwate to Aomori) to keep the territory count down. Of course this may change bonus structure and basic gameplay.

Lets see what you guys think... ;)
Last edited by RedBaron0 on Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Japan - 5th revision pg4

Postby GhostSniper15243 on Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:08 am

Nice graphical start. Very nice. Maybe shrink the symbols a little bit. Not much, just a tad.
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Re: Japan - 5th revision pg4

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:58 am

Nice update.

I think the mountains could use a little desaturation.

I take it both Rishorito islands are the same unit. I kind of looks like one mainland terr attacks one island and another up by Hokkaido attacks another. I suppose it would becleared up once the numbers are in the game.

I'd suggest editing the dotted line between Sado and Ishikawa so that the space in the line is between the distance of the two places. Same for Oki island and Izu-Oshima.

I think it might be better if the logo Japan and the Japanese written Japan were closer together for a single logo.

The words that are over the lighter bit of the ocean are kind of hard to read, such as Abashiri.

Nagasaki and Kagoshima are a tad difficult to read.

I think you could enlarge the fort or change it on the bodies of water to make it stand out or appear different than the playable terrs.

Tokushima is slighly difficult to read... maybe if you added a drop shadow to the word they might stand out a little better. And where will the numbers fit on the Tokushima terr.?

Otherwise, great update.
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Re: Japan - 5th revision pg4

Postby oaktown on Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:04 am

Hi again red,

In case folks aren't aware this map has been chosen to be a subject in our first Map Incubator, so hopefully you'll be seeing the same few faces pop in here weekly.

I'm glad you've removed some of the decorative elements for now - basics first. A good trick for making words and numbers more readable against a colored background is giving them a light outer glow or stroke that will contrast with the surrounding colors. Some of your territory names and region values are lost against the land, so a soft black glow will make them pop out.
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby sailorc on Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:13 pm

nice update. I like the water and land textures much better than before. I also like the "junk". maybe something similar could be done to other empty spaces in the water, like other things related to Japan. the text should clearer in some places, like where text goes over a border.
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:21 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


Sue me... I have nothing better to do today.

This should satisfy everyone's concerns, I may need to touchup and add to the text highlights, but I've added a question for the Incubator crew before I go any further on that front. (on 1st page)

The ship I've changed from black and white to color. I merged the Title with the Kanji text to form a singular title. The mini-map is moved up higher into the corner to fill in the space where the title used to be. The mountains has been desaturated and the land texture is now behind the mountains too. I think it looks really good, compared to the green before, thanks Helix!! I may want to smudge some the mountain edges in spots to for a more seamless look.

sailorc wrote:nice update. I like the water and land textures much better than before. I also like the "junk". maybe something similar could be done to other empty spaces in the water, like other things related to Japan. the text should clearer in some places, like where text goes over a border.


The dragon I had before is what I'm hoping to add somewhere, although its a fire dragon... I may want to look for a water dragon moving in and out of the water perhaps? Or how about Godzilla? ;) :lol: (Toho Studios would most likely never give me permission anyways)
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby oaktown on Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:43 pm

re: your text question, i think the white text looks good against the map... the map uses light colors to begin with, so go with it. Not sure I'm a fan of the shadow behind the text, as it makes the top half of the text readable but not the bottom.

Out of curiosity, what software are you working in?
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby sailorc on Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:02 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:
sailorc wrote:nice update. I like the water and land textures much better than before. I also like the "junk". maybe something similar could be done to other empty spaces in the water, like other things related to Japan. the text should clearer in some places, like where text goes over a border.


The dragon I had before is what I'm hoping to add somewhere, although its a fire dragon... I may want to look for a water dragon moving in and out of the water perhaps? Or how about Godzilla? ;) :lol: (Toho Studios would most likely never give me permission anyways)


you could always use some type of Japanese monument. or a water dragon (although I've never heard of a dragon breathing water, not fire ;) )
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby lancehoch on Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:05 pm

Just wanted to say I like the look. This is also my first time commenting on a map, so I am sorry if the comments come off a little less than what you are used to. Is Tochigi supposed to be a border territory or not? To me right now, I am seeing a pass between the mountains to Niigata and also, I am not sure if Fukushima is supposed to connect. If it is not supposed to connect, I would suggest moving that last mountain to the right about three or four pixels and adding another one into the chain.
I think that the border between Chugoku and Hokuriku is a little strong. I think you toned down a lot of the other continent/zone borders when you added the color and texture, which looks great. This one border happens to look like the island is getting cut in half. Also, the connection between Hiroshima and Nagasaki got a little blurred in the last update.

Again, I am sorry if the comments are not what you are used to, this is my first time commenting on a map.
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby oaktown on Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:06 pm

Godzilla would be nice, but I can think of something that would be even more Japanese. :lol:

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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby ender516 on Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:48 pm

Oaktown, your version would have been perfect for Cutesy Club.

Seriously, though, kudos to RedBaron0. I saw this thread early on, and have just tuned back in. The graphics are much more appealing. I can't say I miss your dragon, but the idea of a water dragon is intriguing. I also see that a lot of discussion of bonuses has taken place, and I will trust the judgment of those more experienced in deciding such matters. Overall, this map is shaping up nicely.
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:45 am

MY EYES! :lol: @ oaktown

I'm using Gimp, the newest version, 2.6 I think it is. The little bit of black I put behind the text is a line drawn with a fuzzy circle with the opacity toned down to about 75% normal, I haven't used a lot of the script-fu's or filters, I look into that for the next update. I'll hold off another day or 2 before getting into another update to let the incubator crew do their job, and get some more feedback on the current revision.

As for another Japanese accent I've looked around and using monuments should be easy enough to do, I'll list a few, see which ones you like best. A dragon I think would be best to add somewhere though. It'd be tough to find another one that is copyright free though, so that might nix that idea right off the bat. sailorc, there are tons of different types of dragons in mythology, in most Asian cultures they aren't as destructive as their European counterparts. Dragons in Asia tend to be a more elemental, and benevolent force, in fact dragons of the Orient have more to do with water than fire.

Click image to enlarge.
image


Famous Monuments of Japan:
    Great Buddha of Kama
    Kofukuji Temple
    Kinkakuji (Golden Pavilion)
    Miyajima Torii Gate
    Mt. Fuji
    Lake Saiko Dragon Shrine
    Godzilla Statue in Hibiya Park :P

No worries Lance, that's the idea, right? The more perspectives I get, the better. I'll tone down that continental border and get another mountain in there. There isn't supposed to be a border there between Tochigi and Fukushima.
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby sailorc on Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:35 am

I didn't look up the pictures, but if my memory serves me correctly, the Torii Gates look very Japanese. So do temples. I think adding monuments commonly related to Japan will add a Japanese-y (adjective) feel to the map, if u know what I mean
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby ender516 on Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:35 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:As for another Japanese accent I've looked around and using monuments should be easy enough to do, I'll list a few, see which ones you like best.
Click image to enlarge.
image


Famous Monuments of Japan:
    Great Buddha of Kama
    Kofukuji Temple
    Kinkakuji (Golden Pavilion)
    Miyajima Torii Gate
    Mt. Fuji
    Lake Saiko Dragon Shrine
    Godzilla Statue in Hibiya Park :P


The Miyajima Torii Gate or Itsukushima Shrine could look great standing in your ocean background.
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby barterer2002 on Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:00 am

You could also use the flag (Either the current one or one of the historical ones)
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:38 am

The current flag:

Image

is kinda on the bland side, even if I could find something spiffy with the flag fluttering in the breeze over near a famous landmark. The other famous flag:

Image

the Japanese naval ensign from WWII may evoke bad feelings on a racial level. Besides at this point a flag I don't think fits in the graphical theme.

Another possibility, how about a bonsai tree?
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby ender516 on Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:16 am

RedBaron0 wrote:The current flag:

Image

is kinda on the bland side, even if I could find something spiffy with the flag fluttering in the breeze over near a famous landmark. The other famous flag:

Image

the Japanese naval ensign from WWII may evoke bad feelings on a racial level. Besides at this point a flag I don't think fits in the graphical theme.

Another possibility, how about a bonsai tree?

A bonsai would be archetypically Japanese, provided it did not just look like a tree. I suppose the carefully scupted branches would get the point across.

If you still want to think about flags, Wikipedia has a List of Japanese flags which gives a wider range of banners, though not many of them make me think of Japan immediately, with the exception of the Imperial banners with the gold chrysanthemum on a red field.
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Re: Japan - 6th revision pg4

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:55 am

Yeah I saw them, I think most folks wouldn't recognize any of the other flags, even if they represent the Imperial family. Even some of the other symbols are too easily confused with other things, like the cherry blossoms. I kinda knew in the back of my mind that there is a Japanese connection there, but the first thing that springs to mind, and would for most Americans, is the cherry blossoms that bloom around Washington DC. The chrysanthemum is another symbol of Japan, and is an overall Asian flower, but mums tend to be giving as gifts on Easter and Mother's Day too...
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Re: Japan - 7th revision pg5

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:31 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


Okay, 4th of July, and I've got a Japan update for y'all!

Added the blue dragon and the Torii gate for graphical accents. Added better highlights to the text and a bit to the main country outline. Also took the mountains and made sure there isn't any question (I hope) to which territory connects to which. I also smudged areas around the mountains to give them a more blended look.

I don't know if I need any more graphical accents, but the junk is beginning to look to me to be a smidgen out of place, and almost ghost-like. Do you guys think I should turn up the opacity?

I'd like to slide back towards any gameplay issues there might be. There's still issues, I think, with bonus values, and a territory or two may need to be added and/or subtracted, possibly. Still, feel free to give suggestions on graphics, I know I need to put the territory circles on, with any luck, as long as there are no major issues with this version, the circles will be on the next version. With the territories generally very light colors I can work with circles that are darker which should give good contrast to the army numbers.
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Re: Japan - 7th revision pg5

Postby lancehoch on Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:43 am

Current bonus structure:
Hokkaido__3
Tohoku____3
Kanto______2
Hokuriku___4
Chukogu___3
Shikoku____2
Kyushu_____2

I think that Chukogi should be upped to 5 since it has the most territories and is defending against the most points of contact with other bonus regions. I also think that Tohoku should be increased to 4 since it has more territories than Hokkaido (6 vs 5), it has more border territories (3 vs 2), and it is defending against more points of contact with other bonus regions (4 vs 2).
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Re: Japan - 7th revision pg5

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:40 am

After running the numbers through the bonus calculators the numbers are coming up pretty close to what is already presented. The only difference is Hokkaido, the calculators suggest 2 instead of 3. For a smaller map, having higher bonus values may have a detrimental affect to game play if 1 player can gain control of a high bonus region the game is over. Perhaps I should look to merge 2 bonus regions for a larger region that might consitute a 6 or 7 bonus value, say Kanto with Tohoku or Hokuriku. Also looking at the connection between bonus regions they are the same going in both directions in almost all cases.

Should I look to move territory connections so you get 2 or 3 connections into just one territory?
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Re: Japan - 7th revision pg5

Postby sailorc on Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:25 am

(sorry more on the graphical side) the Torii gate should be toned down a bit. it looks too solid.
also, I do think Hokkaido should have only 2 bonus. it only has 2 borders, which wouldn't be too difficult to hold
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Re: Japan - 7th revision pg5

Postby oaktown on Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:12 pm

The trouble with the gate is that it looks like a photo, while everything else is hand-drawn. You should one way or the other across the map, and not mix conflicting styles. So if you want the gate, redraw it to look like the mountains.

Same goes with the boat, now that I look at it. In fact I'd stay away from any images you find online - apart from having copyright concerns, they just don't fit the look of the map.
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Re: Japan - 7th revision pg5

Postby lancehoch on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:50 am

RedBaron0 wrote:Should I look to move territory connections so you get 2 or 3 connections into just one territory?

Do you mean that you will add connections or remove them? Right now I think you are at the limit for the fewest connections. If someone grabs one end of the island, they can move one or two territories at a time and crawl across to the other end. Also, the mountains remove any chance of attacking diagonally, so it is easier to defend territories once they are behind your line.
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