Japan - 日本 - Quenched

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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready to go

Postby ender516 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:35 pm

porkenbeans wrote:
MrBenn wrote:porkenbeans, once again you come late to the forge party suggesting sweeping visual changes to a map. As I stated in the 13 colonies map the other day:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=78339&start=450#p2420324
MrBenn wrote:These comments might have been more welcome at any point during the past couple of months when the map was still in the graphics workshop.

In the forge, the focus is on getting the map working (ie XML), and for fixing any tiny little niggles that will have an impact on gameplay (eg understanding territory connections etc.)
MR B, My suggs are NOT sweeping changes. They only go to the coordinates of names and numbers. Any other embellishments were only done as a side note, and were NOT seriously being suggested. If you take the time to read this thread and follow along with the conversation, you will find that I clearly stated as much. My illustrated sugg. is only to show name and army placements. 8-)

To be fair, you did also suggest changing the outlines of some of the islands.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready to go

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:37 pm

ender516 wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:
MrBenn wrote:porkenbeans, once again you come late to the forge party suggesting sweeping visual changes to a map. As I stated in the 13 colonies map the other day:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=78339&start=450#p2420324
MrBenn wrote:These comments might have been more welcome at any point during the past couple of months when the map was still in the graphics workshop.

In the forge, the focus is on getting the map working (ie XML), and for fixing any tiny little niggles that will have an impact on gameplay (eg understanding territory connections etc.)
MR B, My suggs are NOT sweeping changes. They only go to the coordinates of names and numbers. Any other embellishments were only done as a side note, and were NOT seriously being suggested. If you take the time to read this thread and follow along with the conversation, you will find that I clearly stated as much. My illustrated sugg. is only to show name and army placements. 8-)

To be fair, you did also suggest changing the outlines of some of the islands.
Yes, because of placement issues with names and numbers. :?
They are very small tweaks, and nothing even approaching "sweeping changes".
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready to go

Postby MrBenn on Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:46 pm

There are ways of suggesting changes without coming across as annoying. There is some merit in the suggestion to move some army coordinates, but this was lost due to the distraction of the blinking massive ship.

If you're making a serious suggestion, it's always better to leave it as a serious suggestion than accompanying it with tomfoolery.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready to go

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:17 pm

MrBenn wrote:There are ways of suggesting changes without coming across as annoying. There is some merit in the suggestion to move some army coordinates, but this was lost due to the distraction of the blinking massive ship.

If you're making a serious suggestion, it's always better to leave it as a serious suggestion than accompanying it with tomfoolery.
Sorry about the blinking ship. I thought it would be OK if I explained that it was NOT a part of my main suggestion, and that the post was to address the coords.

Army placements and such has got to be the most boring phase in the process, as evidenced by the drop off in feedback when a map gets to this stage. I was just trying to lighten, and loosen up the place. maybe if there was a more jovial atmosphere in this sub-forum, it would start to receive more feedback ?

In any case, I will try to keep my "tomfoolery" in check. :lol:

Well, we have been talking about the coords, I guess its up to red, to pump out the next updated version, if there is going to be any changes or not.

So whats next on the agenda ? Can we start talking about it while we are waiting for the update ?
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready to go

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:52 pm

Link to large image: http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc121/RedBaron0/bigjapanfinal.png
Link to small image: http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc121/RedBaron0/japanfinal.png
XML: http://h1.ripway.com/RedBaron/Japanfinal.xml


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Large 88:
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready to go

Postby jefjef on Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:59 pm

Nice. =D> =D> =D>

Tsushima & Isu numbers. I personally like em on the terts. But I spose they probably look better the way ya have em.

Chiba. I like the name a tad lower.Not so in line with Tokyo.

Nuff nit picking from me.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready to go

Postby natty dread on Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:21 pm

Nice work!

Only thing I can see for now is, that in the large map, the army number for Sado could be moved just a pixel or two to the right. That way the 2-digit number would be within the borders of the island, and since the 3-digit number won't fit inside the borders anyway, it's better that the 2-digit at least will be in.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready to go

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:32 pm

Easy enough to fix Chiba moved up on small map, no change to the large. Hit F5 to see the change on the blank image. I'll fix the position of Sado too and update the 1st post with the current code.

Numbers off the islands will stay the way they are to generally be uniform. 88's will fit on all the smaller island without much issue, except Okinawa, but for sure 888 will not.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:10 am

Looking good red.
One very small nit pick- The names Chugoku, and Shikoku, on the mini map, should be shifted about 1/8 in. to the right. ;)

Maybe "the sea of Japan" could be moved over, a little closer to the Junk.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby RedBaron0 on Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:13 pm

Got them both. I actually moved Chugoku north of the islands between the little Oki-Shoto and the main island of Honshu. (hit F5 if you still see the old position) The Sea of Japan will remain where it is, the main numbers(single and double digits) is centered perfectly between the junk and the name, only the third digit doesn't center, but doesn't overlap the junk.



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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:32 pm

I am lovin this map. I have too many positive critiques, So, I will only mention the one remaining negative. It is NOT a large issue, and I only mention it because it is the only thing That I could think of, that imo, could be improved.

I have already said this, but as I look at the canvas and critique the work from a compositional standpoint, I see an issue with the "main focus". In most, but not all great works of art, you will find the main focus towards the center of the canvas. The main focus is that spot where your eyes are drawn too, and first land. This area acts as an anchor, and when used successfully, holds everything together. There are many various ways to establish the focus point. you can use size, lighting, color etc...

Then there is the matter of "divine proportion" and how it offer's benefit to your composition. I wont go in to that right now.

Back to the man focus aspect. I see in the center of this picture mostly empty, negative space. In the center of it all is a small and in-descriptive junk. I think that if you were to use some of the methods above, you could establish the junk as the main focus. To help with this, I suggest that you put a gradient fade on the compass rose, and make it fade into the background like the sun is. As it is now, it will be competing with the junk as the main focus.

Anyway, all in all, I like this map pretty much as it is now. Just throwing something out there if you are looking for something to fart around with. I have been trying as hard as I might, to find anything that can possibly be improved. I can not see anything else, so is there anything that has not been suggested and addressed ? if not, what is the next step on the road to quench ? :D
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:44 pm

One thing you kinda forget here pork...

This is not a painting, this is a map, and a map which is used for gameplay. Thus, artistic concepts need to be second place in priority, right after playability/legibility/clarity.

I think if the junk was accentuated by any means, it would take away from the simplistic japanese style of the map, but also from the clarity and legibility of the map.

The map is pretty much ready for beta as it is now. I don't see anything that should be changed, just let me play the map already! :D
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:14 pm

natty_dread wrote:One thing you kinda forget here pork...

This is not a painting, this is a map, and a map which is used for gameplay. Thus, artistic concepts need to be second place in priority, right after playability/legibility/clarity.

I think if the junk was accentuated by any means, it would take away from the simplistic japanese style of the map, but also from the clarity and legibility of the map.

The map is pretty much ready for beta as it is now. I don't see anything that should be changed, just let me play the map already! :D
Yes I know this is map for a game, but, maybe you are forgetting that this is not a map. this is a game that uses a map. If I were to open an atlas to a random page, I will find a map that has its composition dictated by the layout of the land. the trick is, taking that map and producing a game, and, is just what this IS all about. With embellishments and/or alterations, a map can be made into a playable game. What many people do not quite understand is, the map can be altered here and there on its way to being transformed into a game. The playability and artistic composition is what you are trying to incorporate.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:20 pm

Yes, there is a balance between playability and artistic composition. But if they need to be put in a scale, the scale will always tip for playability.

However, I do get your point. The junk kinda fades to the background. Adding just a bit more contrast between the junk and the background would not be bad. But it's not a major issue, and quite frankly the map could just as well enter beta as it is now.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:37 pm

natty_dread wrote:Yes, there is a balance between playability and artistic composition. But if they need to be put in a scale, the scale will always tip for playability.

However, I do get your point. The junk kinda fades to the background. Adding just a bit more contrast between the junk and the background would not be bad. But it's not a major issue, and quite frankly the map could just as well enter beta as it is now.
Yes, as I said, I had to search hard to find anything that could possibly be improved. I have followed this project from the start. I have seen it come through a long process of improvement. It surely has come a long way, and I too am happy with it. We can all keep tweaking this thing till the end of time, or we can roll it out as is.

I say roll it out now. :D
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:43 pm

I say quit messing with the graphics... these comments would be more appropriate during the near half year this map was in the graphics workshop.

Secondly, this map is about Japan, not the boat.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:23 pm

Indeed I'd say, just point that quench gun at this map and fire up some beta rays. ;)
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:02 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:I say quit messing with the graphics... these comments would be more appropriate during the near half year this map was in the graphics workshop.

Secondly, this map is about Japan, not the boat.
You should scroll back, You will find that I HAVE been contributing to the development of this map from the beginning. Also if you were to read my last sugg with a little more thought, you will clearly understand, that I am only playing the devils advocate, and just trying to point out the weaker aspects of this map. I have pointed out that IMO this map is very strong, and I really had to look hard to find what I believe are its weakest points. IH, I am a graphics guy, and I am sure that you are aware that most, if not all of my posts, are about graphics. At this stage, I believe that it IS appropriate to comment about any final tweaks.

I understand that this map has many fans, including me, and we are all anxious to welcome its birth, into the world of live play. But, any and all suggestions that go to the final tweaks, should be welcomed. someone might come up with a small tweak that would improve the map.

If you see something that is only a small tweak, and would not cause any substantial changes, NOW is the time to post it. If red sees any merit to it, he can quickly and easily try it out. If he is not happy with it, he can just scratch it off the list. On the other hand, if he IS happy with it, he can post it and see what the fans say. I believe that any tweak suggestion that only takes red a few moments to try out, is well worth the time spent at this stage. After all, this project has spent hundreds of hours in its development. The 2 or 3 minutes spent on a tweak suggestion or 2, is time well spent.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby jefjef on Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:12 pm

Looks good RB0.

If ya want you could replace the boat with a giant squid. Don't forget to give me an honorable mention on this map too. 8-)

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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:53 pm

Where did you get that picture, jeff ? :lol:

I like it.
There are indeed a few ancient myths surrounding sea monsters. Its almost like all that empty space in the center of the map, has just been waiting for one of those sea monsters to raise its head. Something like that, if it was pulled off just right, could just be the thing that sends this map over the top. For shits and giggles, I will see if I can find an old Japanese drawing that might work. stay tuned... ;)
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:56 pm

hehehe no squids, maybe if someone wanted to put a map together about the Nautilus...

Ok, it is worth a try. I do kinda sort-a know what you're talking about, pork. I learned it as a kind of tic-tac-toe board, an work or art generally can be broken down into 9 equal regions each area should have something of "note" within it. Points of greatest value or interest should be on or around the points where the lines cross on the board of the center square.

However continuing to nitpick only delays Beta... Lets not fight about stuff, please point out any glaring errors and get this puppy setup!


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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:03 pm

There is one thing that I have noticed, but have not mentioned it because it is such a minor thing. The compass rose would work better if it was faded into the background like the sun is. A gradient fade to match the suns, would send it to the background, where I think it should be.
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:59 pm

It's such a small object that that wouldn't really work, you wouldn't see half the compass rose. It's an artistic touch not important, but it loses it's significance if you can't see a good chunk of it.

I have added a gradient fade with the current image, but it's a radial fade, so the center is faded and disappearing, while the points and the lettering are still strong. (click F5 to see the newest image if still seeing the old version)
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:40 am

Ripway has been acting strangely the last 24 hours, so I've switched the location of the file back to fileden. Tests still working well. Still ready to go. I do have a small addition ready if there is a pronounced call for a little something in the mostly empty space between the mini-map and the junk. Other than that please note any significant omissions/errors.

Link to large image: http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc121/RedBaron0/bigjapanfinal.png
Link to small image: http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc121/RedBaron0/japanfinal.png
XML: http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/9/16/2577274/Japanfinal.xml

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Small:
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[/quote]
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Re: Japan - 日本 (D, Gp, Gr) V14.0 XML checked ready for Beta

Postby ender516 on Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:00 am

I'm curious as to what your little something might be. I mean, I could imagine the junk simply being bigger without taking over the map, but it might require moving the Sea of Japan label and the paths to and from it.

Were you thinking of resurrecting the dragon? Say, what about a dragon attacking the junk? ;)

Seriously, though, I don't want to see this delayed much more.
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